edrugsearch.com/doxycycline...
Please note that I had contacted one of researchers who carried out the following study for recommended dose. She recommends 100 mg per day
4 Good Reasons Why You Should Take Doxycy... - Cure Parkinson's
4 Good Reasons Why You Should Take Doxycycline for Parkinson Disease
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Farooqji
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Interesting, Thank for keeping hope alive
Anyone rushing out to buy Doxy should know that there is little correlation between mouse and human studies. It seems to me way too early to experiment with this treatment, but hey, if anybody does, let me know how it works out.
Agree. From nature.com/articles/srep41755
" doxycycline, an antibiotic belonging to the family of tetracyclines, has been reported to exhibit neuroprotective activity in both MPTP and 6-OHDA animal models of PD. "
A remarkable variety of things are neuroprotective in such models. These models are woefully inadequate to predict real Parkinson's patients' responses because they assess nerve protection from artificially induced Parkinsonism rather than recovery from actual Parkinson's.
The 6-OHDA rat model is created by, essentially, injecting hydrogen peroxide into their brain. Far as I know, dopaminergic neurons don't die from hydrogen peroxide in PWP.
This article sends mixed messages. It details the 4 good reasons, but then at the end it says "Much still needs to be done to make doxycycline an effective treatment for PD".
the actual paper is here. I have purchased it from doi.org
it says:
"DOX is clearly promising for preventing and inhibiting
dopaminergic cell loss (Sapadin and Fleischmajer 2006)
through its anti-inflammatory effects (Joshi and Miller
1997). Importantly, the long-term administration (up to
2 years) of subantimicrobial doses of DOX has not produced
antibiotic side effects in clinical trials (Golub et al.
2016; Keijmel et al. 2017). Thus, subantimicrobial doses
of DOX may represent a game changer in PD therapy that
will benefit a considerable number of patients."
Impressive study. 1 of the side effects they listed was gastrointestinal, but indicated it was minor. I wonder if long-term use has an adverse effects on the micro-biome and/or cause strains of bacteria to mutate and become more drug-resistant?
I’m sure it would affect the micro biome and destroy the good bacteria.
100mg per day, but did she recommend for how long..??
I have asked the same. Reply is awaited
I don't understand why she says 100mg/day. The research paper says "... clinical trials have demonstrated that the administration of subantibiotic doses (20–40 mg/day) does not alter bacterial susceptibility to antibiotics and results in anti-inflammatory effects ..."
Words of caution from Simon.
scienceofparkinsons.com/tag...
Thanks for this issue Jim. Simon rarely takes a position.
Jim,
I should clarify. In my 1st comment to your post, I said Simon rarely takes a position (perhaps incorrectly) hoping to underscore the significance that in this blog, he took a clear, emphatic position - against DOX for PD.
LAJ12345 said her husband took DOX for several years and through analysis they concluded that it compromised his microbiome, after which he was diagnosed with PD. She speculates that his compromised biome might have caused his PD.
That's not remotely unreasonable speculation. One of the papers iqbaliqbal shared with us conclude that the effect DOX has on bacterial resistance varies by individual. What that means, therefore, is that it is possible that taking DOX for PD may worsen the PD in some people.
As I am unaware of an occasion where anyone has shown Simon to have been wrong, so if he says we shouldn't take to DOX for PD, that's good enough for me.
Simon says, when Prof Tulken says, "…using antibiotics at sub-therapeutic doses is the best way to trigger the emergence of resistance (supported by many in vitro and in vivo studies.)" "he is correct."
... Long term use (which Parkinson’s disease would probably require) of an antibiotic at sub-therapeutic levels will only encourage the rise of antibiotic resistant bacteria possibly within individuals.
Simon says the professor is correct again when he says, "If doxycycline really acts as the authors propose, the molecular targets are probably very different from those causing antibacterial activity. it should therefore be possible to dissociate these effect from the antibacterial effects and to get active compounds devoid of antibacterial activity This is where research must go to rather than in trying to use doxycycline itself.”
Simon concludes with, "Rather than tempting disaster, we need to take the more prudent approach."
Marc
PS. I see below that NRyan speculates, as I did above, that DOX might have made his PD worse.
BTW today I have sent a message to Simon on his comments on debate going on here in this thread (I have sent him the link as well ). Hope he replies to it
iqbaliqbal, Thank you for doing that. I'll be very interested in what he says.
Today I received Simons reply, copied and pasted below without any alterations
" My personal position hasn't changed: using antibiotics at sub-therapeutic doses is the best way to trigger the emergence of resistance. 80% of us wouldn't be here if not for antibiotics. Our main line of defense & yet we are so reckless with them. Sorry for the rant"
And subsequently received another message as below
"I will ask the Brazilians and French researchers how they are doing with the isolating the neuroprotective elements of these antibiotics - will let you know the answer"
Thank you.
So, what do you think of his reply, i.e., are you going to continue with antibiotics?
yes , I am proceeding with it for at least 2 months. I am willing to take risk as PD itself is a big risk. As per famous quote "if you don't take risk, you risk even more"
Good for you. I hope it works.
I find the antibiotic resistance angle a bit odd, since Oracea is already out there and used by thousands of people for ocular rosacea. I'd use it if I could afford it. Also, it is a common aquarium antibiotic. So it is already all over the place.
As for gut microbiome concerns, that's a bit more of an open question. Low doses aren't supposed to affect the microbiome, but who knows. Green tea is antibacterial and affects the microbiome; epidemiological studies show green tea to be on balance beneficial for overall health - but no association, positive or negative, with PD risk, even though EGCG reduces a-syn aggregation. OTOH black tea consumption is associated with lower risk, independent of caffeine. {shrug}
I would echo the comments about PWP not being mice, and the vast trail of "promising in vitro and vivo" which fail to demonstrate efficacy. To that I would add the general caution that mainstream repurposing trials haven't picked this up, it hasn't been trialled, the effects described are due to the drug not its anti-microbial action and imply perpetual use (for how long? - forever). Apart from the consequences for the microbiome , there is a growing first world move to reduce the use of antibiotics due to the (potentially catastrophic) public health issues of resistant bacteria strains, of which MRSA is the tip of the iceberg.
I'm still interested to hear more, but I can't imagine responsible physicians prescribing long term DOX for PD without authorisation - which is going to require clinical trials. And I can imagine objections to trials with the purpose of long term broad spectrum systemic antibiotic use, given the issues about resistant strains of bacteria. Obviously, if it IS therapeutically effective in PWP then the safety issues regarding antibiotic abuse would need to be balanced.
Poo,
You've touched on some of the important issues which were not really addressed by the study. My threshold for permanently taking a broad spectrum antibiotic is about 10 times higher than it is for starting a new supplement.
Hopefully, someone can explain how you can take an antibiotic long-term and not expect other complications?
Long-term antibiotics deplete not only gut bacteria but also the skin biome, setting a person up for fungal infections.
I just read an abstract that concluded people who eat meat that has been fed antibiotics have traces in their poop and from DNA and RNA sequencing, the study concludes that even trace amounts altered the micro-biome.
I had an appointment with a G.I. specialist 2 weeks ago at the VA, we had a good discussion, but one thing she said, "Try not to take antibiotics. They can impact your microbiota for up to a year."
What if, as noted, we could take 20-40 mg per day and got the anti inflammatory benefits without the antibiotic risk? What if we only took it for a few weeks? I'm reminded of the post by Ronshere a few days ago with this story
omicsonline.org/open-access...
I should add that I'm not "sold", but wouldn't it be something if we could take a simple antibiotic in low doses for a few weeks and get better? I wish there was more follow up research on this...
Even just scanning the research shows that the intended PD therapy would be long term continuous permanent administration. Not take it for a few weeks. Globally that could lead to the end of all surgery as we currently know it, as operations become at risk of new resistant forms of bacteria for which we no longer have any effective antibiotic response. That's why simple trials for talking the basic antibiotic as a long term cure for a chronic illness will meet resistance.
Jim,
I agree, if the "what-ifs" were true, I'd be interested.
In the anecdote you provided, the authors didn't say how long it'd been between the administration of antibiotics and their declaration that the symptoms hadn't returned, "to this day." Could've been a couple weeks or couple months. Could be that by now, the PD returned with a vengeance -- along with additional complications.
I'm probably more spooked by antibiotics than most people. I'd need to see a successful phase II study and even then, the outcome would have to be dramatic.
I'd need Hikoi's standard of proof before I inject myself with antibiotics.
This doesn't change anything, but it appears that the article was written in 2018 and the patient took antibiotics for four weeks in 2009.
Jim, good find. It doesn't change anything for me. I wouldn't expect a compromised micro-biome to generate much trouble in 4 weeks. The question is whether or not the microbial action of a long-term, 40 mg/day dose of an antibiotic no longer affects bacteria. I don't know, but if I had to guess, I'd say it is.
If your PD is caused by a bacterial infection and you found a doctor who can know that with certainty, and this doctor has a theory as to what antibiotic to use, the dose and strength, but is wrong, might that cause the Parkinson’s disease causing bacteria to become more virulent?
How does one's doctor know that their PD is caused by an infection?
I agree. Given the rate of misdiagnosis, it's also quite possible that the patient had something other than Parkinson's disease. This is all intriguing and I hope there are more follow up studies, but I'm staying away from antibiotics unless the evidence becomes overwhelming.
I see now. The claim is that it's PD did not come back 9 years later. Thank you for pointing this out. It does render moot my point about 4 weeks.
Interesting! The doctor put me on doxycycline for 6 months after double pneumonia (resulting in bronchiectasis). I was left with loss of taste AND I developed a rash over the top half of my body, not realizing until now that the rash was probably because of the doxy. Thanks for posting this park_bear.
My malware software blocked the link - stating a Trojan virus - filebin......
I was able to open the eddrugsearch link. Doxy is hard to get from doctors. Used to treat Lyme Disease and if more than 21 days of this drug is needed many doctors are reluctant to prescribe/renew drug. People with chronic Lyme Disease are forced to turn to integrative doctors (not covered by any insurance) and pay out-of-pocket for the doctor visits and sometimes the RX (depending on your insurance provider).
It's no hard to get from doctors - it is standard treatment for ocular rosacea. I'm not on it because the time-release low dose (40mg) version (Oracea) that is best and currently on-patent (and what my eye doctor wants me to take) would cost me ~ $230month (high deductible plan; that price is with a coupon, good for how many months IDK, without coupon it is over $500).
As far as antibiotic resistance goes - pfft - I've thought about using fish doxycycline since it is an order of magnitude cheaper, but am not willing to take the risk. There's lots of aquarium water full of doxy that goes down the drain - I think the 'containing resistance threat' ship sailed a long time ago for doxy.
.......subantibiotic doses (20–40 mg/day) does not alter bacterial susceptibility to antibiotics and results in anti-inflammatory effects .. Any further negative comments on this??
I’m checking with my pharmacist sister if she thinks long term use is ok.
Ah, yes, doxycycline is also used for Lyme disease. Any thoughts on a causative agent?
im taking it now iqbaliqbal the pills were also given to people with lots of pimples as well.ill wait and see if there are any results later,regards john.
I too have purchased it and started taking it for my sore throat (Which I am suffering from nowadays). Lets see what happens
Thanks for sharing iqbaliqbal
My husband had been taking 100mg daily doxy for years for rosacea and acne well before PD diagnosis. About 6 months ago he had a faecal test done under a natural doctor and his gut bacteria are very strange. No bifido bacteria, and the ratio of aerobes to anaerobes is very abnormal, and he has a large amount of a bacteria called corynebacterium amylatum and other oral bacteria which we assume is due to the long term effect of taking doxy wiping out some of the beneficial bacteria but not others which are resistant to it. He has stopped taking it since and was taking berberine and allicin alternate weeks with probiotics for a few months and his acne seemed to be fairly well controlled but has taken a break from that for a month as his anxiety levels have been bad and so we have cut back treatments to the bare minimum as the constant capsule taking was stressing him out. With Christmas he has been having a bit more of foods like Christmas cake, meat, cheese and more fruits etc whereas we had changed our diet to sugar and gluten free, very little meat, or dairy.
The acne has now come back quite badly so he is back on the berberine allicin / probiotic regime again. Nothing so far seems to be able cure the acne but these herbals alongside a strict sugar and junk food free diet seem to keep it down a bit.
I wouldn’t say taking the doxy has helped his PD symptoms as he started on it well before diagnosis and before most of his symptoms. We think the unbalanced gut bacteria could have brought it on.
Very informative, are his PD symptoms better on the sugar and gluten free diet?
It is so hard to say as stress seems to be the thing that makes the difference to symptoms way more than anything else. His skin was definitely better and he lost 10kg in about 6-8 weeks which was needed as he was over weight. His whole big belly went down. But it is really hard to say what has helped as he has been on b1 and other vitamins too, mannose on and off. Sinemet makes no difference but he doesn’t really have a tremor anyway. Christmas, school hold with the kids home, and going away have stressed him to the max, and now we are back home he is stressing about jobs that need doing and being “useless” in his words.
how much dose of doxy was he taking
Have you tried green tea for the acne? It could also improve gut flora: nutritionfacts.org/video/na...
Yes, he has had green tea which also contributed to the rapid weight loss I think, then he was on the restore gold which also has it for a while but he was feeling ill from stress so cut back on all the supplements as it was stressing him having to take them.
He stopped the green tea originally as he was having pains in his abdomen which seemed to be around his liver and I read it can cause liver failure in some people so he stopped it just in case. Liver function was normal. The weight loss every time he starts it again is dramatic so don’t want him to lose too much more because of cause he thinks he is fading away and that also stresses him. Actually I think he looks a lot more healthy now at his current weight but he is in a negative frame of mind.
According to the video, you can use a green tea lotion for acne. Starts just after the 2:30 point.
Taking antibiotics everyday can't be good for obvious reasons.
Have you thought about this...doxy is an antibiotic used to treat Lyme. If doxy supposedly helps Parkinson’s, then think about this......the theory is that Lyme and coinfections are attacking the brain, therefore causing Parkinson symptoms.
Look
Into the gut brain connection...
You have to be careful with antibiotics though, as they destroy good bacteria.
You must supplement with good live probiotics.
Even better, treat it naturally.
If you have rosacea, you can easily get an ongoing Rx for Doxy. I took it on/off for a few years. The last time I tried it, I felt it made my PD symptoms worse. It can affect balance via lightheadedness, so maybe I was just experiencing a side effect, not worsening of symptoms? I just watched the documentary on Lyme on Amazon Prime....super scary! I know 2 people that were sick for years with Lyme before proper diagnosis and treatment. Thank god for Doxy!
Preclinical studies are merely suggestive - very weak evidence. The few anecdotal reports in the foregoing comments, from actual humans with Parkinson's, are better evidence. Conclusion: do not try this at home.
The article headline was grossly inappropriate.
Also, there have been prior occasions where antibiotics were thought to be "anti-inflammatory", but that turned out to be merely because they killed or suppressed bacteria causing inflammation.
There are supposed to be thousands of different types of bacteria in a healthy gut. Probiotics can't possibly be good enough to repair any significant amount of damage. Anyone risking this is playing with something very fragile and easily thrown out of balance.
selected excerpt from the link above
"The effective dose of doxycyline confering neuroprotec-
tion in our experiments contains 20 mg mL1 for subcutane-
ously injection and -
40 mg kg1 for chow application.
Although the mg kg1 dose of doxycycline given the mice
was substantially higher than doses given to humans (100 mg
day1
, twice a day—see Table 1 for review), the steady state
levels of doxycycline is comparable because of rapid
metabolism of doxycycline in mice (Prall et al., 2002"
"MINOCYCLINE: LONG-TERM SAFETY
To the extent that MC may exert neuroprotective ef-
fects for patients with neurodegenerative disease, its
long-term safety must be carefully examined. A semi-
synthetic long-acting second-generation tetracycline
with superior absorption and tissue penetration into the
brain and CSF, MC has been used safely as an antibi-
otic agent for many years. It has been approved by the
Food and Drug Administration as an antibiotic used for
a wide variety of infections and autoimmune condi-
tions, including acne vulgaris, bullous pemphigoid, and
rheumatoid arthritis. MC is safe and well tolerated at
doses up to 200 mg/day as shown in clinical trials with
long-term follow-up evaluation of 2–4 years for pa-
tients with rheumatoid arthritis and acne vulgaris (26–
28). In long-term clinical trials, approximately 10% pa-
tients experienced side effects, but none were life
threatening (26–33)."
An in vitro study to assess the impact of tetracycline on the human intestinal microbiome
Exposure to tetracycline perturbs the microbiome of soil oligochaete Enchytraeus crypticus
This listing of adverse events plus the list of common side effects associated with doxycycline use seems concerning to me. I imagine if you have used doxycycline before without a problem, then the list is much less concerning, but for a first time user, caution seems appropriate.
online.epocrates.com/drugs/...
Art
Farooqji in reply to
thanks for sharing this. I have used it in the past for few days without any issues
Long-term treatment for Lyme’s is doxycycline. However it tends to not make much difference after a while and can even make it worse. Also breaks up your bio and your gut is you’re number one Protector.
iqbaliqbal,
Have you been taking this for 4 months now and if so, how do you feel about it now?
Any update for doxycycline to treat parkinson. Thanks...
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