For 45 years I have taken mega doses of vitamins and other health supplements every day without fail. These include 2000mg vitamin C and 400iu of vitamin E and fish oil capsules.
These are supposed to enhance the auto immune system. As rheumatoid arthritis (RA) is caused by an over active immune system attacking the cartilege in our joints, are these vitamins adding to the problem?
Many internet sources claim they help protect from RA. Anybody aware of any expert medical opinion on the subject.
Btw I'm 80 and fairly new to RA.
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Jeff1943
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See this post from AussieNeil, administrator for the CLL group on HealthUnlocked:
Americans spent >$50 billion on vitamins and supplements in 2021. A new systematic review of 84 studies shows they are a "waste of money"
AussieNeil
Per the 2022 updated US Preventive Services Task Force Recommendation Statement, with my emphasis, "Excessive doses of vitamin supplements can cause several known adverse effects; for example, moderate doses of vitamin A supplements may reduce bone mineral density, and high doses may be hepatotoxic or teratogenic. Vitamin D has potential harms, such as a risk of hypercalcemia and kidney stones, when given at high doses. The potential for harm from other supplements at high doses should be carefully considered...important harm of increased lung cancer incidence was reported with the use of beta carotene by persons who smoke tobacco or have occupational exposure to asbestos.from Vitamin, Mineral, and Multivitamin Supplementation to Prevent Cardiovascular Disease and CancerUS Preventive Services Task Force Recommendation Statementjamanetwork.com/journals/ja...Objective To update its 2014 recommendation, the US Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) commissioned a review of the evidence on the efficacy of supplementation with single nutrients, functionally related nutrient pairs, or multivitamins for reducing the risk of cardiovascular disease, cancer, and mortality in the general adult population, as well as the harms of supplementation.Evidence Assessment The USPSTF concludes with moderate certainty that the harms of beta carotene supplementation outweigh the benefits for the prevention of cardiovascular disease or cancer. The USPSTF also concludes with moderate certainty that there is no net benefit of supplementation with vitamin E for the prevention of cardiovascular disease or cancer. The USPSTF concludes that the evidence is insufficient to determine the balance of benefits and harms of supplementation with multivitamins for the prevention of cardiovascular disease or cancer. Evidence is lacking and the balance of benefits and harms cannot be determined. The USPSTF concludes that the evidence is insufficient to determine the balance of benefits and harms of supplementation with single or paired nutrients (other than beta carotene and vitamin E) for the prevention of cardiovascular disease or cancer. Evidence is lacking and the balance of benefits and harms cannot be determined.It's worth looking at the full report, which cites over 50 references supporting the updated recommendations.This is a timely update to Taking Supplements? Here’s Why You Should Tell Your Doctor, by Muthu Veeraputhiran, MD, a hematologist/oncologist at the University of Arkansas Medical Center in Little Rock as reported by Patient Power patientpower.info/why-you-s... and which appeared in the June CLL Support UK newsletter images.cllsupport.org.uk/wp...As I've said many times "...it’s best to have your doctor check whether you need them to address a vitamin deficiency. This is often done through a simple blood test that measures your vitamin levels to see if they may be necessary."My tip is to try a new vegetable or fruit with the money you would normally spend on multivitamins. You might find them much more enjoyable than swallowing capsules. Study after study has shown that it's best to obtain our nutritional, mineral and vitamin requirements from foods, preferably with minimal to no processing.
I've heard all this anti vitamin stuff before. There are just too many clinical studies I've read over the years that support mega vitamin therapy. As I say I'm 80, I've been taking mega vitamins for 45 years and enjoyed excellent health until this RA came along. Funny how natural vitamins that are so good for you in food become near lethal in supplement form!!
A powerful antioxidant, vitamin C is key for immune function, making it important for anyone with a chronic disease, says Robert Hylland, M.D., a rheumatologist in Muskegon, MI."
And here's another, quite overwhelming when you search for the therapeutic effects of mega vitamin therapy, just so many clinical trials in favour.
"Megadose of Vitamin C for Rheumatoid Arthritis Inflammation: Pilot Study
Published on: December 11, 2012
High doses of intravenous vitamin C may reduce arthritic pain.
Chronic inflammation is a hallmark symptom of rheumatoid arthritis, a notion further supported by clinical evidence that subjects with rheumatoid arthritis bear higher levels of inflammation-inducing reactive oxygen species (ROS) within the body.
Any number of ROS-scavenging ingredients, then, might alleviate inflammation in those with rheumatoid arthritis. But researchers at the Riordan Clinic in Wichita, Kansas are looking at rheumatoid arthritis and vitamin C (ascorbic acid). Vitamin C isn’t just an ROS scavenger; it aids in collagen formation, and clinical trials indicate that rheumatoid arthritis sufferers often have vitamin C deficiency and low levels of vitamin C in their synovial fluid, the primary lubricant of human joints. All of this led Riordan Clinic researchers to investigate the potential for relieving rheumatoid arthritis pain with very high vitamin C doses.
In a pilot study on 11 rheumatoid arthritis patients, subjects were assigned to intravenous doses of vitamin C ranging from 7.5 g to 50 g. The primary endpoint was C-reactive protein (CRP), a marker of inflammation that dropped by an average of 44% in the nine subjects who experienced decreases."
Then why did you even start this thread if you are close-minded? There are also many studies showing mega vitamins do nothing!! MINIMAL amounts of several vitamins are needed for immune function - more than that is money down the drain and in the pocket of the manufacturers.
Don122, I am not closed minded as you suggest, I have a set of beliefs concerning mega vitamin intake but the subject of my post is whether vitamins that enhance the auto immune response are bad for Rheumatoid Arthritis where the auto immune response attacks our joints.I am not interested in your views on whether taking mega vitamin supplements in general is a waste of money, that is not the subject of this post.
It seems to me that searching authoritative sites on the internet produces many conflicting answers. I found 3 in as many minutes saying that Vitamin C, which strengthens the immune response, is good for RA.
I'm sure that you could find as many other authoritative sites suggesting Vitamin C, and other vitamins that strengthen the auto immune response, are bad for RA.
I'm just extremely disappointed that the rheumatology discipline has shown little interest in this important subject and does not speak with one voice.
Don122, surely we all have an interest in finding the definitive answer to this question whatever we believe and I find your accusation of closed-mindedness unhelpful.
I think it was a Tim Spector article/ podcast which stated that the only supplement worth taking is Vit D, and I think if you are vegan you need B12. You could check with your pharnacist
I give you my personal guarantee that if you asked a pharmacist whether vitamins that increase the auto immune response are bad for RA you would be met with a blank stare.
Vit c is water soluble so if you take more than you need it comes out in urine. Personally I think vitamin supplements probably don't do a lot and their benefits are oversold. So I'd be surprised if they have made your immune system so fantastic that it brought on RA. Also if you have taken vitamins for 45 years it's unlikely they are the cause. Hope you're symptoms are manageable.
I read Immune by Dettmer and he says the Immune system is so complex that you can’t boost it but rather only parts of it. You never want to do anything that will actually boost any part of it as that could cause problems with making it unbalanced. I take vitamin D and fish oil.
I only take vit D which is prescribed. I get other nutrients through my diet. It is possible to overdose on vitamins. I had a fad once of taking vit B6 and following a routine blood test my Dr phoned me and asked if I was taking vitamins because my B6 was too high.
My Vitamin D is within normal levels but way down the bottom of the range. So I take 2000iu of Vitamin D every day which raises my blood level of vitamin D but not by a great deal.
I also listened to the Tim Spector pod cast very interesting. I still take VitD/3 & K2.(7) along with cod liver oil. GP feels it shows in my blood work now, as taken awhile. I also drink turmeric (golden milk) with a tsp of coconut or MCT oil in depending on time of day..
I have always been advised by rheumatologists to avoid any supplements that boost the immune system, as our meds are trying to lower it, so boosting is counterproductive. The only supplements I take is Vit D, which my rheumatologist decided the government dose for shielding patients wasn’t enough, and Vit B complex to help with fatigue. If you take a healthy diet, you will be getting sufficient levels of vitamins. As others have said excess of some vitamins or minerals can be dangerous, it would be worth checking if you’re actually deficient in any of them, and supplementing according to those results.
You should speak to your doctor or your rheumy nurse….they will advise you if any sort of supplement is necessary.
From a personal point of view,I am older than you , have had RA for 20+ years & the only Vitamin I take is Vit D in AdcalD3 prescribed by my rheumatologist.
If you have even a halfway decent diet…..supplements should not be necessary…especially as a lot of them will be excreted down the loo!
This is what Tim Spector - a hugely repected scientist - says. I respect his opinion, and concentrate in eating properly. I take Vit D on prescription as my body doesn’t retain it, and that’s all.
“Nothing but real food”. Tim Spector, professor of genetic epidemiology, King’s College London
I used to take supplements, but six years ago I changed my mind. After researching my book I realised that the clinical studies, when properly carried out and independent of the manufacturers, clearly showed they didn’t work, and in many cases could be harmful.
Studies of multivitamins show regular users are more likely to die of cancer or heart disease, for example. The only exception is supplements for preventing blindness due to macular degeneration, where randomised trials have been generally positive for a minor effect with a mixture of antioxidants.In many cases, there is some experimental evidence these chemicals in supplements work naturally in the body or as foods, but no good evidence that when given in concentrated form as tablets they have any benefit.
Recent evidence shows that high doses of some supplements can even be harmful – a case in point being calcium and vitamin D. Rather than taking expensive and ineffective synthetic products, we should get all the nutrients, microbes and vitamins we need from eating a range of real foods, as evolution and nature intended.
But …..I don’t think I could stomach TS’ breakfast do you?
“My breakfast now is a mixture of kefir and full-fat yoghurt with some berries and mixed nuts and seeds on top, plus one or two big cups of black coffee. “
The mega vitamins I take are not synthetic as you suggest but are from natural origin. For example, the famous research that showed Betacarotene caused cancer used synthetic Betacarotene rather than the natural form which if used may well have produced a different result.
i didn’t suggest anything, and you didn’t say whether what you take is natural or not. I was merely quoting.
The immune system is hugely complex and involves hundreds of processes at a cellular level. No-one has yet really managed to identify the causal issues, but rather than simply being over-active (as is the case for example with allergic rhinitis) it seems there are most likely specific parts that are out of balance. This causes an over proliferation of certain cells. Attached diagram sets this out.
In general our bodies are good at regulating themselves, so if one ingests an excess of folic acid for example it is just excreted out. But with type 1 diabetics, another auto-immune disease, eating excess sugar can stimulate the auto-immune response to pancreatic B cells. So it is possible that stress, lack of sleep, smoking, poor diet etc could trigger an increase in antibody/cytokine production in us. And maybe an overbalance of specific vitamins or minerals could do this too - no one knows.
So I focus on eating well to keep my overall health good, and don’t bother with any supplements. Most are broken down in the gut and would be harmelss, but to me why spend money on something unnecessary and unproven that could carry a risk. My main concern woukd be that it interferes with the functioing of my biologic drugs.
At my RA diagnosis appointment I was told not to take any supplements before checking out with rheumatoid, as they might interfere with the meds prescribed to manage the RA.
So I only take a couple of supplements for specific reasons, with their approval.
I take vitamin D as advised by my osteoporosis nurse. She said ‘you can’t overdose’ but I test regularly and adjust how much I take 1000-3000iu. I don’t seem to store vitamin D well even when we’ve had a hot sunny summer and even in the sunny south of France so I keep checking and adjusting. I also take magnesium, vitamin K2-Mk7, a seaweed based DHA omega oil that I find really helps my dry eyes, a seaweed based calcium but not a huge amount because too much isn’t good for you and my diet is fairly calcium rich even though I don’t eat much dairy produce and on my optician’s advice I have just started MacuShield because of changes within my eyes. I also eat a healthy diet - lots of oily fish, chicken, eggs, green leafy and other veg, unsalted nuts and seeds, no junk or processed foods or fizzy drinks - but I still take some vitamins and minerals.
I always think of Tim Spector as being similar to Michael Moseley and also that he is quite likely change his mind about what is good for you depending on his latest research. To quote Tim in conversation with Jonathan Woolf ‘I think this is the fun bit about nutrition science is that it doesn't stay still for long.’ joinzoe.com/learn/podcast-5...
A friend who started his Zoe project has now given up - she said it was too complicated and too expensive. I know I’m a very cynical person but I imagine if he produced his own range of vitamins he’d be all in favour of taking them.
Ideally it is best to get your vitamins and minerals from good quality food but our food is only as good as the soil it is grown in - if the soil is depleted of minerals etc then so will our food be.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who eventually gave up on Zoe.I freely admit I’m no computer whizz kid…but I found it kept going off on tangents…a. bit like “Ooh- look what I’ve found now”
Taking daily vitamin and mineral supplements is fine in moderation but not excessive doses. Try to get what you can from your diet. Remember that the pharmaceutical industry makes huge profits by encouraging patients away from more natural ways of dealing with illnesses and wanting them to take more pharmaceuticals as it`s more profitable to keep sick people taking a lifetime of medications than it is to cure them then they no longer need medications and no profits are made. Doctors and Nurses are heavily influenced by the pharmaceutical industry as the pharmaceutical industry heavily funds healthcare and the training of medical professionals. Doctors especially mainly want to throw pills at everything. It was the Rockefeller Institute over 100 years ago that started the modern pharmaceutical industry as we know it. Stress is one of the biggest factors in triggering autoimmune conditions as Dr Gabor Mate has said this in interviews he`s given and there is alot of research to show this especially with MS. I know myself the biggest trigger for a flare for me ( I have Anklylosing Spondylitis as well as 2 other forms of arthritis all over my body) has always been stress. I don`t take any DMARD`s nor any Biologics.
The pharmaceutical industry pushed the covid vaccines on everyone and there are now loads of people dropping dead from "heart conditions", "blood clots" etc. The next big thing is Avian flu and I`m sure they`ll be pushing another vaccine onto people. I haven`t taken a covid vaccine and I won`t be taking any others they try to force onto us. The goal of the elite, governments etc is to kill people as they don`t want to support elderly and disabled people especially. They don`t care about us.
Vit D & Calcium help keep bones healthy. I take a multi-vitamin and omega oil tablet every day. I also need extra B12 for energy as my body doesn’t seem to absorb things. * I notice straight away if I don’t take this. For me a multi-vitamin was best as it covered all bases. I am quite happy to pee out any excess.
complicated isn't it because we know lack of vitamin c leads to scurvy and lack of vitamin d and or calcium leads to rickets! If you have a very sparse diet like me for health problems supplementing is the only option.
What I find suspect is the suggestion that natural vitamins in food are very good for you but the same natural vitamins in supplement form suddenly become as lethal as a cocktail of cyanide and arsenic.
1. Don't take mega vitamin supplements as they are completely ineffective and a waste of money.
2. Don't take mega vitamin supplements as they effectively block the therepeutic qualities of Methotrexate for RA.
I'm no expert but that reads like a complete contradiction to me. Either they have an effect or they don't. I have questioned my GP and eminent Rheumatologist on this matter. Their faces go blank and they tell me they haven't heard anything whatsoever on this issue.
Hi Jeff,I agree the vitamins do help, but I have had a few adverse effects, really only to higher doses of B complex, terrible stomach cramps and nausea, anyone else!?
I’m 47 and I was diagnosed 2 years ago with RA and I was diagnosed with MS 2&1/2 years ago. I take a truck load of vitamins and I’m just learning some of them are intensifying my MS. So I have been backing off of too much Vitamin C and taking more Vitamin D. I had to stop taking biotin because it makes my symptoms worse. It’s crazy how all these vitamins are supposed to help us but in actuality they are hurting us.
Show us some recent (later than 2002) studies by real scientists about large doses of supplements. What you need is real food, lots of fresh vegetables, fish, and fresh vegetables.
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