I'm here to stir up another debate which will probably result in this thread being closed and moderators sending me another warning message. [shame on you]
Jordan Peterson is a high profile Clinical Psychologist in Canada. His daughter developed Rheumatoid Arthritis when she was a child. Through diet and lifestyle changes they have been able to put Rheumatoid Arthritis into remission after suffering for many years and having multiple joint replacements.
Here is a radio show interview with Mikhaila Peterson where she talks about her experience:
Here are a few podcasts with her Dad. He is not appearing on these podcasts to talk about the lifestyle impact on RA, but he does mention it throughout each podcast sparingly. You should give them a listen:
I have previously listened to Gabor Mate and others on the whole pharmaceutical question and don't shoot them down in any way. I would like to see some quality research on diet and health/illness but who will fund it?.I am sure diet, lifestyle, stress, attitude, genetic factors, viruses, environmental pollutants etc all play their part in effecting our health. However, we are all individuals and will be impacted by different things in different ways. We are told daily by the media to eat or not eat certain food groups. If there was a clear way forward without risking joint disease while trying it I do think most people on this site would be onto it.Also bear in mind different ailments may need different diets and many have several other problems other than the autoimmune.
Like you said, everyone is different. The only way to really figure out what works for someone is a strict elimination diet. There is no one size fits all approach for anyone.
Last year we had the first scientific study conducted into the effects of an elimination diet on Autoimmune Bowel Diseases. 73% of people in the study achieved remission within 6 weeks:
Undeniable evidence exists that diet and lifestyle has a massive impact on disease progression and symptom management, but like you said, who will pay to investigate this?
In the meantime we have to use ourselves as Guinea Pigs and figure things out for ourselves.
I think it's really important that we keep talking about this in every medium possible. We keep talking about it on here even when NRAS ban people and close our threads.
We keep talking about it with our Rheumatologists even when they try to play things down and sweep it under the carpet.
We keep lobbying large Arthritis charities to spend more of their budgets on researching the diet and lifestyle impact on the disease. Right now they only use a small % of their SUBSTANTIAL budgets on researching the impact of diet. They focus the majority of their budgets on developing new Biologically therapies and marketing. This is not acceptable. They should leave that to the Pharmaceutical companies who spend Billions every year on research and development.
It's a slow process, but the more people that keep discussing, the faster we will get to a situation where the mainstream medical system will have to put in place a system where they can help people manage their disease with diet and lifestyle changes.
Everyday people are getting diagnosed and handed a life sentence and a bag full of medication. We need to be doing more.
Diet and lifestyle is not the magic bullet that will fix all problems, but it almost always will have a substantial impact on a person's quality of life.
The problem is drugs and lifestyle changes are not mutually exclusive. People already fear drugs and this makes it worse. In addition, we are constantly being told it is our fault ! If we had a healthier lifestyle perhaps we would not be ill!! That is ridiculous! Why do vegans and vegetarians get autoimmune disease then ?
I don't think you should ever blame anyone for developing a disease. It's not about that. It's about trying to prevent diseases from occuring in the first place and then all of us collectively doing whatever we can in our power to reverse, treat and repair diseases when they develop. The responsibility falls on everyone. Doctors, Rheumatologists, Media, Medical Science, FDA, WHO. I think that the people who contract diseases are very far down that list because there's a massive lack of information and support available. I don't blame anyone for developing anything. It could happen to anyone, at anytime.
When Cigarettes were first released and sold, Doctors believed that they were good for the lungs. Would we blame anyone who grew up in this time if they died of Lung Cancer as a result of smoking?
I strongly believe that refined sugar, gluten and diary will be treated like Smoking in 15 - 20 years time. Sugary drinks are already illegal in some countries and the UK just introduced a new tax on them because of how harmful they are to our health.
We can't get defensive and think people are attacking our life choices. It's all about working together to try and help as many people feel better as we possibly can.
Vegans and Vegetarians may get ill because they consume a lot of foods which are very high in Lectins. Lectins are very closely associated with certain types of Cancers and Autoimmune Disease. I recommend reading the following book to learn more:
For the record, I have changed my diet and lifestyle with no effect. At least none thus far.
I feel my time is better spent learning how to manage the many conditions I have with remedies that work for me. I eat according to my genetics and it also helps me avoid unnecessary drug reactions. I do take vitamin D and a multivitamin but do not go crazy.
I walk as much as I can and drink water . I do manage my weight and mobility well. I do not have small flares just major crashes. So instead of sitting around waiting for the next one I make the best of the time I have in between lol
I have tried eight DMARDS/Biologics with no success but likely due to late diagnoses. But every person is unique and will respond and progress in their own way.
It is highly specific to Inflammatory Arthritis. Who knows. Maybe you'll find something in there that works for you.
I hope you manage to get into remission soon. I strongly believe it will happen one day. You sound like a true fighter. You will definitely beat it in the end!
I haven’t looked at the videos so can’t comment there, but Rheumertoid Arthritis in children can burn itself out naturally. I use to go to an Arthritis group and a lady there had it in childhood and it totally went when she got older. She was sadly left with permanent joint damage.
Exactly. I had RA as a child and it went away until I went into menopause, then it came back with a vengeance.
Of course diet is hugely important. However. There's a huge assumption that everyone has a choice in the types of food they buy and consume. Many people are dependent on food banks, some aren't that lucky!
Personally, I would love to buy from my local organic veg shop...but at those prices!!! I can get double for my money at the Thursday market. Plenty of folks out there that can't afford the Thursday market fruit and veg either. Fruit and veg is luxury they can't afford. Many families are fed foods that just fill a gap.
We are fortunate where I live. Loads of Apple trees have been planted...free for all to enjoy. There are also nut, cherry and plum trees. Shame more communities don't do the same.
Nettie you bring up an amazing point. Something people often don't think about including myself.
Treatments are often so expensive and Doctors throw Steroids and Anti Inflammatories at people. Maybe in the future our Health Care system could offer subsidised food, if their Pharmaceutical bills can come down.
It may seem too far fetched... But you never know one day maybe it will happen. Our government needs to do much more for people in need.
Just added on to my post as you posted yours! Re planting communal fruit trees.
Folks round here can often be seen filling bags and pots at certain times of the year.
There are allotments too. Though I often think many folks miss out on the joy of that due to a lack of funds, or disability. I'd love an allotment.. No way I could do it though. Can barely tie my own shoes! I do barter for goods though!
I grew most of my own veg and quite a bit of soft fruit for the last 3yrs by involvement with an organic growers community project. It didn't make a bit of difference to my disease but I loved the tasty fresh chemical free veg and the community.
Unfortunately I have moved home so no longer have the same access to organic veg. Hope to start growing my own again soon.
I also went completely dairy free for 18 months. Again this made no difference to my RA, my sinus' were clearer but my calcium levels fell dramatically so I am now back on the dairy.
When I first started with the full onslaught of this disease I desperately researched into and paid out for intolerance tests, tried every different reccomended diet etc. Nothing worked. I do get a bit irritated by folk who start being really pushy on here about diets or by the "miracle" cures that keep being report in the media or social media and then people I know telling me to try something because they think they are helping.
There is so much information available about different diets for various illnesses. If folk want to try them out and they work for them then that's great. But diet is not the cure for all, and I do resent being told it's my fault for my lifestyle and dietary choices.
If 70% of juvenile cases eventually spontaneously go into remission then this is poor support of diet as a cure.
Yes I do agree that more research is needed into the effect of diet but please don't fill this site with pages of stuff on diet which happened in the past and led to quite a bit intimidatory and bullying remarks from some.
I had probably just been reading about the organic growing and just carried on from there not realising my post followed yours and wasn't replying to the initial post. Shows I am missing my organic beds.
LOh well if its on the internet it must be true, like the 'doctor' just on the news who injected an unknown substance into a woman who believed his internet claims were true. Me, I'll stick to conventional medications prescribed at great expense on the nhs and state the obvious a good diet and exercise helps us all regardless of RA or no RA. I have a garden grow our own, grew up in the country eating only home grown or killed food and never smoked. I've got RA so much for healthy living. !!
I think the big problem with autoimmune problems is that no one really knows what causes them. I can give a fairly educated guess on what I believe caused mine, and even then it's multifactorial.
Early poverty. My poor mother struggled to feed five of us. Early loss of a parent. My mother died aged 35 kidney failure (autoimmune?) I strongly suspect certain drugs triggered an autoimmune disorder in my case. I initially got graves disease after starting a particular drug, and then bam, I get another on top!
So possibly a familial link. Two of my sisters and a brother have autoimmune issues. Almost certainly environmental. I've experienced more stress than the average Jo. Plus some issues with chemicals.
Ticking time bomb!?
So would diet cure it? Probably not in isolation, but it will help. Children who have had very poor nutrition (as I did) often fair rather badly. Hence my mentioning good food as a 'choice' Not everyone can make. Having worked in the community with struggling young parents. I have seen what their choices are. Sometimes food choices are down to poor education, often it's just because they're poor!
Of course there are people with autoimmune disorders who are perfectly well nourished. However, they may well have had other environmental or familial stressors. Who knows what the mix is.
There is science linking allergens, toxic metals, diet, hormones, poor gut health and infections etc to chronic diseases. Therefore, it looks like the pharmaceuticals and NHS already know the root causes of disease.
However, this is the concerning bit:
Does the NHS test people for toxic metals and offer patients detox programmes....no!
Does the NHS put everyone on strong probiotics when they know gut health is another cause, no!
Do they recommend trying a low sugar and low carb diet to lower insulin and balance hormones...no! They prescribe synthetic hormones linked to cancer.
Most of what they offer, like Painkillers are masking these issues and long term causing more problems. Therefore, it doesn't matter how much money they are spending on drugs if they are ignoring the root causes in science.....
Ps I do still think if you can't figure out your triggers of disease then pharma drugs may be required.
Why would this valuable information be rejected by this thread or moderators? Thank you for having a commitment to open mindedness to treatment options.
Could be to do with flogging his numerous books ? Written dozens of them so the next question remains is he a doctor or a quack. Thanks but I still believe these posts are not helpful, may be of dubious source and I hope are removed.
As you probably saw from my post above, diet is tied into gut health and there is strong evidence now about the gut being implicated in disease. It's in medical journals and doctors books.
In addition, there is evidence of allergens causing autoimmunity and inflammation. Therefore, I sense these are the reasons why diet alone is helping some people. Everyone has different triggers. I have multiple (toxic metals, allergies, infections, nutritional deficiencies etc). However, my doctor told me diet was the most important thing. I had to have a good diet in place before tackling my other problems. Changing diet did balance my hormones. An endocrinologist confirmed diet played a vital role in this.
All doctors get paid, some conventional Drs write books too. The pharmaceuticals are also making staggering amounts of money from drugs (most of which don't tackle root causes of disease) so i dont see why others shouldn't sell books? If there's science backing them? Why not? I really hope that this post doesn't get deleted as freedom of speech should be allowed on every forum.
There have been some scientific studies recently (although can't find the references right now) that suggest that lifestyle changes are most likely to be effective in younger women with very early RA. That seems to be a useful pointer and certainly worth trying if one has very slight indications. And at the very least if you follow sensible practice re sleep, diet, exercise and no smoking then you will be in better shape.....
I actually wonder if there are some big differences in the disease between those where it shows itself under 35-40 and those where it appears after 50?
Lifestyle changes do definitely make difference. For example: I reckon if I didn't have my dog I wouldn’t walk as much as I do. I would probably have spent a good deal more time in bed feeling sorry for myself if I'm totally honest. I get cracking depression as a side plate to the arthritis. The temptation is to just shut the world out. This has a terrible impact on physical, mental and social well being. The dog drags my butt out of bed. Walking loosens the old joints, I get day light for mood and vit d, and invariably chat to someone en route.
That's just one simple example.
Wouldn’t it be more respectful to acknowledge the following:
1. There are age groups where going on some sort of diet might be appropriate, but for many, they don’t want to take such a harsh step. Living with RA is bad enough, without taking away people’s favourite foods. If people want to do that, good on them - there’s plenty of stuff on the inter webs for them to follow.
2. Those “special” diets are hideously expensive to implement - not just the food, but the gear you have to have to “process” it. It’s really rude to be flogging ideas that many folk who are on limited incomes can’t actually implement.
Personally I find your post somewhat offensive, even more so, as you’ve admitted being deleted before (for presumably the same type of post).
It comes across as a marketing exercise. I’m quite capable of finding my own scams to research thank you. A simple use of your google-fu will turn up any number of “dietary” solutions for RA - none of which (as far as I can determine) have any peer reviewed research behind them.
This doesn’t belong on this site - dear old FB is a good place to share non-validated information, if that’s what you want to do cheers
I don't advocate special diets at all, or anything particularly weird or expensive. Just trying to eat the best you can for your budget. And importantly doing that alongside living as healthy a life as you can in terms of exercise and sleep.
I personally think it's very rare that anyone can achieve RA remission through lifestyle changes. However I've certainly found that the fact that I've stopped smoking, am now a normal weight, take daily exercise and don't eat any processed foods has helped me - as a complement to my daily bucket of drugs of course! I don't deny myself anything, so if I want a cake or biscuit then I have one - but I make them myself to avoid additives and trans fats.
And as for taking away people's favorite foods, well actually sometimes I would agree to that. If you have RA it is extra important not to be overweight, and if the reason someone is overweight is too many sugary snacks then I don't think it's bad to suggest reducing them.
I’m 61. I feel it’s actually important for my mental health to be enjoying what I eat, and what I do. Hence, my post. “Gut health” could quite possibly be the answer, but the “answer” is probably 10 => 20 years away, in terms of proper research. That’s ok for the younger folk, and good for them, I look forward to that eventuality.
For myself, as a late diagnosis, I want to be able to maintain for say 25 years. I’m not interested in depriving myself for 5 years (= 20%) of my possible remaining years to test a dietary theory. I’m also not a fan of adults being rapped over the knuckles by health authorities because they don’t conform to some sort of “healthy” ideal.
Which goes back to my previous post. Don’t post market “diets” unless there’s some proof of efficacy. For example, I could suggest fish oil - there are research papers that will tell you that fish oil is beneficial. Or, if you post a diet, then research would be good and a website that doesn’t constantly email you to sign up, would be even better.
Well I'm also 61 and equally feel I want to maintain myself in as good and independent condition as I can for as long as I can. So I'm quite happy to be advised by the health authority how to achieve that - I don't see it as being rapped over the knuckles since most of the advice is basic common sense anyway.
And the evidence for things like obesity being a real problem is now overwhelming, so I struggle to see how anyone could deny it? Yes it's not easy to achieve, nor is stopping smoking, or taking exercise when you have painful joints. But I'm not depriving myself of anything, but taking positive steps to improve my health and well being. RA is enough of a burden, so I need to make sure that everything else is as good as it can be to minimise the effects of the disease.
Yes I find some of the evidence is too thin for the more alternative diets, but I'm happy for people to tell me about it (not harangue or lecture, but simply tell me). That's often how progress is made.
It would be a shame to have a post closed because people can't be tolerant of one another. There are some interesting, useful responses. What a shame it would be to lose all those.
We don't have to agree with one another, we can respectfully agree/or disagree surely?
I agree that endless posts on the same subject can be a bit tedious. Why not just keep one open for respectful debate?
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I agree with you @nettienet. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I don't mind at all if people disagree as long as they word their posts in a respectful manner.
I’m one of those people who developed rheumatoid arthritis later in life. I’m convinced that people who develop RA later in life are suffering from poor gut health. Thanks to doctors like Mercola and Myers, advocates of natural remedies. I’ve been able to reduce my RA factor and C-RP levels by a third in a year by use of supplements and diet changes. The big diet change for me was the elimination of artificial sweeteners and reduction of gluten.
I strongly feel that if diet helped it would be prescribed,it’s not as if the NHS is rolling in money!
I have been “recommended “ two diets by friends,one the very expensive macrobiotic diet and the other a very heavy meat diet both offering a miracle cure.
I also feel rheumatoid arthritis will probably be found to have several causes so not every treatment will suit everyone.
I come from a family of small farmers where every thing was grown or killed and eaten fresh but still rheumatoid arthritis is endemic in my in my family on both sides..
Same here and I'm Celioc to boot. These gut health posts. If true why have I had a camera just shoved up and another down, Biopsy's done and yet more tests, test, tests ! My diet is good, never eat proccessed food and not overweight and always active. I have a great worry that as I've had clots linked to RA that RA is not just about swelling and pain, the health risks of so called cures are there......... and could be life threatening. Diet is important like not smoking and drinking to much, is for everyone. I just think how odd it is that things like this come up again and again under different names. Strange that, or am I naturally suspicous as well as an eater of all things except chicken in moderation. lol x
I know I have auto immune disease due to recent tests and just hope it continues to be kept at bay with good NHS supplied medication. Thank you NHS and RA consultants.
But what happens if the meds don't work. Or the side effects are horrendous and become life threatening? What's left then? Often folks are made to feel bad when the meds have failed, and that's not good. Far better I think, to have something to fall back on. The hopelessness of feeling ill and medication not doing its job is terrible, and soul destroying.
Better to think, Ok I've tried the meds what can I now do for myself, rather than give up hope. If trying a healthy eating plan, or alternative medicines gives the individual a focus...why not? I happen to hate methotrexate, but I wouldn't suggest for one moment that others shouldn't try it. Clearly it works for some!
I've got to be honest and admit up front that I haven't always looked after myself. I have lived!! And lived!!!
Having tried three dmards and steroids with only minimal impact on the disease, and the side effects from hell to boot...I'm pretty much open minded about trying anything. I may not be offered the biologicals anyway. So where does that leave me? Actually, I think it leaves me doing the best I can.
I need to lose weight for sure, and my diet needs an overhaul. I don't drink or smoke any more (gave that up donkeys ago!) but in short, there is room for improvement. Sometimes taking control of the reigns is all you can do.
I'm not apposed to anything that will help a person to recover and live life to the best of their ability.
On the other hand, I'm not so stupid that I will be drawn into all sorts of weird and wonderful cure alls. I'm quite capable of doing my own research and making an informed choice. I won't be becoming a frutarian any time soon, or be licking the under belly of a toad. All that roughage would be bad for my IBS!
I so agree Nettlenet, I'm just against diet being put forward to cure RA. This is because it could mislead some into thinkng my pet dislike " clean" eating will cure it. I also believe that being healthy is also partly in the mind as depression, is it would appear is common in some people with RA. By the way licking that toad might lead to a prince on the doorstep. I'm definately all for healthy eating as I was bought up doing that as dad grew or killed it but not that it cures RA because it may welll be that weight loss is the main effective factor likewise excercise if possable. lol x
I think it will be a big part of treatment in the future. I worked in a large organization for a long time. It had over 250,000 employees worldwide. It was a nightmare to get anything changed. Everything had to be done by committee. Even when it was so obvious that a change would be highly beneficial for everyone it still took years to implement something.
The NHS is ran by the skin of it's teeth. Everyone is pushed to their limits. The logistics behind overhauling the blueprint for treatment plans that have existed for decades is not an easy task. It also leaves the NHS personally liable if patients were to have adverse reactions to new types of treatment. For this reason they take the safe, tried and tested approach.
In time I think Diet and Lifestyle will form a huge part of treatment, but it will take a long time to get there and I don't think it will be led by Doctors, Consultants or Nurses. I think in time we could see a new role created in the NHS in the form of Health Coaches.
I could see a situation where a Consultant diagnoses and treats a disease in a traditional way while simultaneously a Health Coach could work much closer with someone evaluating blood work and Genome mapping regularly to measure what changes or improvements have occured as a result of lifestyle changes.
I think this is the future of medicine and where we are heading but a change as big as this will take a long time to implement. It will take a lot of baby steps.
Discussions like this are a big part of one day making this kind of treatment a possibility.
I wonder how many people are clinically or morbidly obese, are hugely at risk of developing type 2 diabetes, and yet continue eating the same diet despite knowing what it is doing to them?
And I’m not saying that everyone that is overweight eats chocolate cake all day, I’m pointing out that even when there is clear evidence of a link between diet and a condition, it still isn’t sufficient to stop millions of people being diagnosed with that condition every year around the world.
We are light-years away from the day when the NHS can manage a condition as complex in nature as autoimmune inflammatory conditions by telling people what to eat.
That doesn’t mean that diet can’t help in some instances, or that it will help in all instances. There are other factors for sure.
I hope you are able to keep contributing Allsopp because it's good that you are so optimistic.
It would be nice if you could briefly explain what these videos are advocating so that we could decide if that sounds new and interesting.
The idea of health coaches sounds great as does spending many days relaxing in mud pools and community apple trees where everyone gathers as much as they like.....
I see these articles, videos etc. all the time. I am tired of people telling me that if I ate this way or did this, I would be cured. I had RA in my youth and it went into remission by itself in my 20’s, then came back with a vengeance at menopause. I know someone that told me and others that if they ate a certain way, cut out dairy, ate vegan and gluten free etc. we wouldn’t get autoimmune problems and other health problems like it was my own fault. I wouldn’t wish this condition on anyone, but must admit I felt vindicated when she came down with RA at menopause.
Healthy eating is good for all of us, but I am 3rd generation RA. We all ate differently. There are many more factors to RA than diet. There are many skellotins that show RA bone damage in skeletons that are hundreds of years old, before we ate many things the diets tell us are causing our conditions.
I wonder if it matters what the cause was? I ask because it seems to me that some folks (with inflammatory arthritis) do genuinely believe they have been helped by diet. I don't think we should dismiss their experiences out of hand. I'm just wondering why a particular diet might help one group of people and not others?
I have a personal friend who has RA who takes no medication at all and is fine. She is 70 now and quite honestly runs rings round me! I look like a crabbit old fart next to her and I'm not 60 yet!
I have PsA and my arthritis has spread everywhere. Hers was mostly hands and neck (I think). She's very slender, I'm um...rubenesque!
I really don't know. Perhaps there's something in the original trigger that makes some people's arthritis easier to treat?
I have never smoked or drink. Ate healthy more or less. If anything, worked very hard so I guess I had a pretty stressful lifestyle. I got struck with RA back in November 2016. I press on with life as best I can. If anything RA has made me avoid the stresses life can throw out. All the best.
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