Hello there VRBs! Another month, another Monday, another weekly chat – another chance to reveal the good, the bad and the ugly about your recent running exploits!
It’s exactly two years to the day since I completed the Trail du Gévaudan, my one and only marathon distance. That day temperatures ranged from 6°C to 20°C, whereas today it’s set to hit 30°C, and over the summer I’ve rarely run more than 6k.
Does that mean I’ll never get back to longer runs? Not necessarily. However, for the moment I’m disinclined to follow a marathon training plan. Having done it once, I know how much discipline and effort it takes, and how dispiriting I found the process.
So, when I read the Guardian headline about Tigist Assefa’s recent world-record marathon run Did Tigist Assefa’s ‘super shoes’ make her a record-breaking marathon winner? - theguardian.com/world/2023/... - my answer had to be a resounding NO!
Did the shoes give her a decisive competitive edge? Quite possibly. But the fact is that there’s a whole lot more to setting world records than simply wearing whizzy shoes. Natural talent, expert coaching, dedicated training, tailored nutrition, and an immense amount of commitment and determination also go into it. Plus a pinch of good fortune.
For another take on 'super shoes' this (long) Australian article also makes interesting reading: wwos.nine.com.au/athletics/...
Unsurprisingly, I won’t be indulging in a pair! But if money were no object, would you be tempted? And what are your thoughts on the whole 'super shoes' issue?
Answers, plus all the top gossip about your own running, to this thread please!
Looking forward to hearing from you, and in the meantime, happy running!
I think that progression in running shoes reflects what happens in just about every sport.
When I think about the heavy football boots I started out with, with studs nailed into the soles (sometimes the nails found their way into your feet!) and then look at what footballers wear today…there is a world of difference. At world record running pace, I am sure that there are plenty of sponsors around to pay for the kit. Provided we only compare current runners against their contemporaries, there is no problem. Trying to compare between generations is probably little better than guesswork. Giving a pair of vapour flys to me would be like given my late mum a Bugatti Veyron…..she would only have driven it at about 30 miles per hour! 🙂
Oh I agree that there's bound to be progression over time Beachcomber66 , whether it's in shoe technology or other aspects of running. Or in other sports, come to that.
But tbh I wasn't really thinking about comparisons between generations; what I had in mind is more about where this 'super shoes' thing might be going. A fair bit of the world record coverage that I've seen has been more about the shoes than Tigist Assefa, which really bugs me. It should be about the runner, not what they've got on their feet!
Nonetheless I find myself in agreement with this quote in the second article about the way athletics is marketed and how athletes earn money: "But I'm not quite sure why the shoes need to be the reason why they're making that money; it should be the fact that they're the best in the world at sprinting or at throwing a javelin. Our sport should be able to market itself well enough so that there are ways for athletes to make money without it being about them having super shoes on."
Absolutely! Put any of us behind the wheel of a top F1 car and we wouldn't be anywhere near as quick as the professionals.On this occasion the shoes might have affected / improved Tigist Assefa's running gait in addition to maybe a small incremental performance gain. Tigist is an amazing athlete even without the hyper shoes!
I suspect a great many people would struggle even to fit behind the wheel of an F1 car, let alone drive it Katnap ! When I got into one several decades ago (no driving, I hasten to add!) the cockpit was absolutely tiny.
Seems that the 'super shoes' Tigist Assefa was wearing might have been designed taking into account her physiology. It's really another world, isn't it, both in her running ability, and the technology that she can access to maximise that!
Those shoes might be fun to try, but what a price tag! In the end it would still be same old me and my same old legs and feet, putt-putting along in very expensive shoes. But if money were no object? Sure, I'd give them a go.
Love the photo hoyden , though never mind the shoes, I'm not entirely sure that baton complies with relay rules!
Even if I had the cash to spare I honestly can't imagine spending so much on shoes that are designed to last for one road marathon. Given my preferred running terrain, I'd most likely trash them within minutes! As for having to enter a draw to be entitled to buy them, spare me!
If money were no object would I spend it on shoes? mybe, Some of it. I'd find a sports podiatrist and tell them I wanted to run without blisters,more specifically without the burning pain that distracts me from enjoying a long run! And if they suggested I spend my money on a new pair of shoes ... I've got to admit ... I probably would! But I'd make sure there was some left over for physio and sports massage because even with the best shoes in the world, I suspect I would still end up injured!!! In short, if money were no object and there was a shoe out there that would save me from blisters and injury ... I'd hand over the lot 😍
Speed? not so much!
Don't worry about the reporting ... that's folk who have no idea about the effort and discipline that goes into running your best run, folk who are maybe more than a little bit jealous!
My running? It's currently taking place in Santorini (by the sea) which is great fun (apart from it going dark while I ran and my not being able to find my way back to the apartment on the night we arrived 🙈); GSR on the horizon and although I'm not match fit, I'm currently fit enough to go out there and enjoy it. Happy days 🥰
I'm also toying with the idea of trying another (proper) marathon ... hmmm ... I may wish I hadn't owned up to that 🙈
Your Santorini running looks wonderful linda9389 , and it's great that you're feeling positive about the GSR.
Handing over money for shoes that would guarantee you'd never get blistered or injured would strike me as money extremely well-spent! Unfortunately I suspect you'll have to wait until the unicorns have been trained to deliver them...
As for world record coverage and commentary that focuses on the shoes not the runner, I'm not worried, I'm annoyed! I find the spin in the first article disappointing from an award-winning science writer - maybe it's the result of the brief, or sloppy subbing (that clickbait headline is dreadful.)
For me the second article is particularly interesting as, despite yet another clickbait headline, it relates the views of elite runners and a podiatrist, and they certainly don't all see eye to eye.
Will be interesting to see how shoe marketing and athlete sponsorship pan out over the next few years.
Nah, not for me 😁 Supershoes deffo not on my shopping list
I am running a marathon soon though and still need a shoe. The shoes I bought recently won’t be in my race bag though ☹️
I’m still plodding away on marathon training runs. I did a two hour jog this morning in the warm🙂🏃♀️ I was aching like mad after my strength workout yesterday 😫
Have a great running week everyone. Hopefully we’ll get some good weather 🤞
Glad to hear that the marathon training's going OK misswobble , but boo to the recent shoes not working out. It'd be good to be able to get some miles in wearing the race day shoes, wouldn't it? Though I guess that's not something that 'super shoe' wearers do, if theirs are designed to last only one marathon! Yet another good reason for not buying a pair if you ask me. 😉
Two hours in the warm is brilliant! I'm desperate for it to cool down. Went out today and it was properly cloudy, but still maybe 22°C. It got a bit breezy at one point, and that was so good, even though I had to hang onto my running cap to keep it in place.
Hope the weather's kind to you, and you find your perfect marathon shoes very soon!
I’m waiting in for the latest pair to be delivered. Sale bargain off eBay -Puma winterised road running shoe. Whether it will be a bargain - like my most recent purchase 😩 - remains to be seen. At least it’s not a disaster when you’ve only handed over fifty quid. Annoying though. Mind you the Nikes will be ok on shorter distances under half marathon length. At least I’ve found out early that it doesn’t suit me.
I’m suffering at the mo. I ache that much I can hardly get up and down the stairs. I’ve been round and about with the dog earlier and that helped 🐕. I think I might be getting old 🫣☺️
Hiya Cmoi, as someone deep in the middle of marathon tapering, I say Yay to your comments! I can only dream of having Assefa’s talents, let alone her shoes, and you know how much work it takes to run a marathon.
All I can say is that my ‘super shoes’, my Saucony Endorphin Pro 3s, are more than enough ‘Super’ for me. Assefa’s shoes aren’t really designed for the likes of us mere mortals. Assefa’s shoes are all about speed, mine are all about endurance. Mine have to hold my legs up for way more than double the amount of time that those super-expensive Adidas do. My shoes may have wanted someone with speed but they got me. I miss them when I can’t wear them but I only wear them for races. They are squishy, pink and sparkly and I love them.
Happy tapering TailChaser , may the running gods smile upon you and your Barbie super shoes!
Yes, Assefa's 'super shoes' aren't designed for "mere mortals" and that's another thing that doesn't sit well with me. Of course I'm not suggesting that technological development is a bad thing, nor advocating for all runners to don back-to-primary-school plimsolls, but I'm getting a "gotta have this if you wanna run fast" vibe that I don't like.
One of the things that I've discovered as a result of starting this thread is that there doesn't seem to be quite as much difference in trail running shoes! If I wanted to get the same shoes as Courtney Dauwalter wore when she won this year's UTMB, I could buy them online in my size for 200 euros, right now. If I shopped around I might even be able to find them cheaper!
Now, 200 euros isn't cheap, but it's no more expensive than plenty of other trail shoes. And it's way below the 500 euro price tag for the same shoes as Assefa, which have apparently already sold out and are supposedly being resold for thousands on Ebay.
However, even at the comparatively bargain price, I won't be rushing to buy Dauwalter shoes, because I'm not so daft as to think they'll enable me to perform at her standard.
I know what you mean but, going back to Katnap’s F1 analogy, it’s a bit like all that research and technology that goes into an F1 car - eventually some of it trickles down into what the rest of us use and it becomes more mainstream. Those Adidas shoes weren’t really for us at all, it’s just that they wouldn’t have been race legal if Adidas hadn’t made them available to the general public, so they turned it into a marketing opportunity - there are always some muggins who will fall for it! Can’t blame them really.
Wasn’t UTMB incredible! I follow someone on Strava who did it, he’s nuts!
I agree that the trickle-down is there, but I guess it's also that which bugs me. It seems to me that there is an increasing tendency for some brand to develop road running shoes for elites, then produce those shoes in tiny quantities, use massive marketing hype to create artificial demand and flog the product at over-inflated prices to people with more money than sense. Any trickle-down to "mass market" road shoes appears later, complete with price rise and, more often than not, a V2 of the shoes just to ensure that people keep buying. Cynical, moi?
Ironically, of course, the top trail events such as UTMB are far less accessible to the masses than something like the London Marathon, as entry requirements will rule out many. While the UTMB race itself is fab, I'm less of a fan of the organisation behind it. Last year UTMB took over the Trail de St Jacques races, including the Trail du Gévaudan that I did in 2021. The cost of entry has doubled, and indicative speeds and time barriers suggest it's all now well out of my league. So glad I did it when I did!
Trail running does seem to be getting more and more elitist, you’re right. It’s not just the cost, many of them you also have to qualify for as well. Races like shoes are being commoditised the more popular they get, very much like everything else unfortunately.
To some extent I can understand the need for trail races to be cautious re entry criteria, simply because of safety considerations. Many trail races, certainly the more serious ones, expect runners to be semi-or completely independent in terms of fuelling and hydration, and there's an obligatory kit list. Plus the locations mean that you don't have supporters lining all the route, access for emergency services can be difficult, and mobile coverage may well be limited or non-existent. That's simply not true of the vast majority of road marathons.
But when it comes to UTMB making entry to the lottery conditional upon gaining "running stones" by completing designated events as well as completing index races, to me that smacks of unnecessary commercialism.
I’ve discounted ‘super shoes’ for myself for a number of reasons. However, my quest for the perfect marathon shoe is still on-going. I’m just off to the Physio with no.2 son who has been injured for awhile now. We’re going with his beloved Alphaflys in hand incase they’ve caused any problems. All of our top finishers at park run wear carbon plated shoes so it’s hard to convince no.2 son now to wear a daily trainer for his speedier runs.
Oh no RW, I hope he’s going to be ok. I have heard that about wearing them before you’re fully grown. There are some that don’t have plates - Asics Superblast springs to mind, that’s supposed to be a really good shoe, but it is painfully expensive atm. Or there’s the Brooks Hyperion Tempo Max? It’ll probably do him good in the long run, just frustrating now. Fingers crossed 🤞
Physio is happy with his shoes which was a big relief for no.2 son who loves his Alphaflys. He is not allowed to do any speed work so back to his daily trainer for now. Physio is ok for him to run at a slower pace with tape, ice and lots of stretch homework.
I don't know how old son no. 2 is RunWillie , but presumably of an age where he's still living at home and you're still paying for his shoes? Unfortunately what you've said only confirms my personal discomfort about the way the 'super shoes' are marketed and how it's affecting running. I know your son's a really good runner, but if he's stressing over not being able to wear carbon-plated shoes at parkrun that makes me sad, both for him and for the messages the manufacturers are conveying.
As I'm a complete numpty about those shoes I tried to read up quickly about them, and it appears that they're supposed to be used for racing and high-intensity sessions, not as a daily shoe. But that's not the "buy if you wanna go faster" marketing message.
I've seen from your update that it's speed that's the problem rather than the Alphaflys per se, which I guess is good news (no need to shell out right away on yet more shoes!) and I hope the physio's advice, treatment and prescribed exercises will have your son back on form soon.
You’re right Cmoi we did succumb to the teens pressure to wear “super shoes” To be fair he doesn’t get to “race” as he is a Pastors kid & all the races are on Sunday so park run is really his “race”. We don’t allow him to wear them outside of park run/interval sessions. The brands are certainly going to keep pushing the tech. It will be interesting to see if trail racing goes the same way. Thank you for hosting the weekly chat. I love any shoe discussion so I’ve loved it 😍
I was wondering if he got to race at other times RunWillie , so thanks for the explanation. Shades of Chariots of Fire (sorry, I bet you get that all the time.)
Yes & no on the Chariots of Fire reference. I’m happy to run a marathon on a Sunday so it would be hypocritical to not allow our boys to do one off Sunday sport events. However, we made the decision that we wouldn’t trade our commitment to God & His people for weekly Sunday sport long before my husband was a full time Pastor. That’s been hard & costly for some of our boys who have been state standard 😔
Hello Cmoi and everyone. No supershoes for me. They would be completely wasted on my little trot.
I was very naive when I spent £125 on my first pair of Brooks shoes. I had no idea that a year later I would have to replace them, especially as they still looked ok. I need supportive shoes and fortunately I have not had the problem with blisters or chafing that I know exists. I tend to have a saucony and a brooks on the go at the same time and swap and I think this helps my feet and my shoes. I have recently purchased the same versions of my current shoes because they are half price now, rather than move on to the next annual version. Having happy feet is more important than being in the latest style.
I do need to find good trail shoes though. Buying men’s shoes was not a good idea. They are the right size, but something about the fit is not right for me. The fact that they are neutral is not helpful either, but I haven’t found the right insoles yet.
A while back Adidas were promoting women’s shoes that were based around a last designed around women’s feet. Apparently most shoes are based on a mens last. I’m don’t know if that is still a thing but it’s quite interesting.
to be honest I'm not convinced by this idea of men's feet and women's feet being different. My feet are identical to my dad's, albeit 2 sizes smaller. They are exactly the same shape, even down to the details of the toes!
Oh look, another marketing opportunity! 😜 More seriously, I gather that scientific research does indicate anatomical, not solely size-related differences between men's and women's feet. See this, for example: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/112...
I can imagine that women’s feet have evolved slightly differently as surely the differences in our pelvis shape/flexibility and it’s effect on our gait would change them over time. Anyway, I’m not too bothered. Personally I prefer a more androgynous shoe, whether it’s for running or everyday (my wonderful Pro 3s are available in sparkly pink for men and women, which makes them extra cool in my eyes).
You're so right when you say Having happy feet is more important than being in the latest style Dexy5 . In fairness, though, I imagine that those reading this forum are sufficiently clued-up to realise that sometimes model updates are largely cosmetic but other times there's significant change. It seems to me to be impossible to tell without doing a bit of research such as reading reviews.
Was there a specific reason why you bought men's trail shoes? Men's sizing generally starts too large for me, though I know Salomon, amongst others, do unisex shoes that would fit me. I've also found a wide variation between the degree of support and stability offered by different trail shoes, even within the same brand - Brooks, in my case. I usually wear them with Sidas insoles. Hope you get to find your perfect match!
Yes I did try the GTS 23s in my local shop and they didn’t actually feel much different to the 22s which I’ve been very happy with, whereas I hated the 21s. I saved at least £50 by sticking to the 22s.
The peregrines were an online pandemic purchase based on a Runners World report on trail shoes . I thought as all trail shoes were neutral, I’d go for them, and ordered men’s and women’s because my feet are in the wide side. The men’s felt a better fit at the time , walking round the house. (Online companies don’t allow you to try them outside) whereas our local shop does.). They are brilliant for running in mud and wet grass but I find my calves ache a bit and the heel fitting isn’t quite right.
I've got wide feet too. However, apparently a wider forefoot and narrower heel is characteristic of women's feet rather than men's, so that might (or might not...) explain why the men's fitting isn't working for you.
No supershoes for me. I have those shoes that are like the ones from Married With Children that Al Bundy designs after he gets a bump on the head and has a divine vision.
On the subject of elite athletes and shoes, where the technology is enhancing the performance, perhaps we might be getting into the realm of design regulations for premier competitions like they have in Formula 1?
Maybe not back to the level that Roger Bannister ran on the cinder track at Iffley Road in May 1954. He had them cut back as much as possible to reduce weight, and described them thus: "The leather is extremely thin and the spikes are unusually thin, as I used a grindstone to make them even thinner." [bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-3...]
I can imagine he'd have been right at home in a pair of VivoBarefoot shoes.
I was hoping you'd be along to join in the discussion nowster . I know even less about barefoot shoes than I do about 'super shoes,' so could you tell me to what extent manufacturers of barefoot shoes change models and make claims about them?
As for shoe design regulations, they're already in place! Yet more googling (sorry but I'm my father's daughter) turned up Sports technology, law and regulation - the battle of the super shoe:lexology.com/library/detail... It examines legal aspects of 'super shoes' including intellectual property and regulatory questions, and I found it really interesting.
After the Vibram class action lawsuit manufacturers are really cautious about making claims. ekneewalker.com/blogs/news/...
There aren't many huge changes in barefoot shoes. There's only so much you can do with 5mm of rubber and/or EVA, and maybe a mesh layer. Most of the changes have been tweaks in the formulation of the materials and cosmetic refreshes of the designs of the uppers.
As the slogan goes, with barefoot shoes "You are the technology."
Thanks! I just quickly read that link, very interesting. Have to confess I wasn't even aware of the Vibram class action - or that slogan, come to that.
WhileI can't see myself ever changing to barefoot shoes, I'm certainly more comfortable with the idea of being, rather than buying, the technology!
It’s a good job you weren’t running that race this year Cmoi! I don't know how people managed to train in your heat 🥵 but I guess they have to if they have to.
Interestingly, one of my favourite running sites has just brought up the question of the shoes. They’ve reviewed her form before and after and it’s quite significant. Certainly in their opinion the shoes made the difference.
I think the shoes maybe gave her a distinct advantage but, as you say, at the end of the day she had to do the training and run the miles. So, perhaps a great partnership?
As an amateur runner I wouldn’t invest in the shoes. I’m never going to win a race and I’m not fussed about running as fast as possible because therein lies injury for me ☹️ so I’ll just stick to my faithful Sauconys.
My running is getting there. I’m still doing run/walk intervals but I’m up to 30 minute runs so I feel as if I’m actually running now rather than mostly walking! The hip is getting better all the time and the new orthotics are doing fine, so all is good 🙂
Just off for a sports massage soon so that will loosen up my back which is always a weak area for me.
Glad to hear things are getting better for you Irishprincess , about time!
That was another interesting article, but I loathe that closing sentence, and wasn't impressed by the author's attitude in the comments either.
The Trail du Gévaudan and other St Jacques races are normally held in early to mid-June, but in 2021 the races were postponed because of Covid. While there were hot spells that summer, we didn't get the prolonged heatwaves and excessive temperatures that we had this year and last. I can't imagine how I'd have managed if we had.
It's been bliss the last couple of days, temperatures have gone as low as 4°C first thing and only into the mid-20s during the afternoon. Last week it was still 15° higher than that! I'm so looking forward to being able to run at varying times of day, though now I have to factor in where they're hunting, particularly at weekends.
I love shoes. All of them. Buying running shoes is one of my favourite parts of being a runner! I love a bargain so I think my natural tendency would be to buy a few pairs of sale shoes instead of one pair of super shoes. Plus, my IT band problems (which seem settled now-I feel very nervous typing that!) has changed my priorities and now I’m more focussed on shoes that will help keep that at bay….as well as ideally looking pretty!!!
Sliced Bread did a podcast on running shoes which was really interesting. The episode imaginatively called “Running Shoes” talked about super shoes. Their one in Barefoot Shoes was great too with some surprising discussion of gait analysis. I need to listen again but I remember being really surprised that the guests were taking about how much less effective it is than we often think because our bodies have ingrained movement patterns that are hard to override. I think that was what they were saying anyway!
I’m having fun running at the moment. I’ve got a 5 mile night race booked for November. That’s a distance I’m totally confident I can do and it’ll be a lot of hi vis fun. I’m already thinking I need new brighter leggings and Proviz has a sale on….
BBC sounds sliced bread episode called “running shoes”
Why am I not surprised that you're a shoe fiend MissUnderstanding ?! 😉
Thanks for the podcast links, I must give those a listen. Glad that you're enjoying your running, and wish you loads of fun and luck for the night race. Kinda wish you hadn't mentioned Proviz though, cost me a fortune last time!
hi cmoi I’m finally back in Blighty and catching up on HU. Very interesting topic as it’s my birthday today (yay 🎉), and I’m on the hunt for some new track trainers!
Thankfully my days of spending a fortune on super shoes are over (for now), but I do still invest in super spikes for my races and training. I still have several pairs of the original super shoes but they’re on eBay and marketplace now.
They worked for me and, even though I was never going to be an elite, it made me feel good to wear them and run in them and it was definitely better than spending the money on fags and booze as I would have done in an earlier life.
For now, I’m looking at getting a pair of Pegasus 40s, Adidas Adizero 8 or Saucony. All around the £80-£100 mark. Plus I will wear them as daily wear when I’m done with them which is something you just can’t do with super shoes.
Welcome back RunBrianRun , it's been great fun following your adventures on Strava!
I was keen to hear your thoughts on 'super shoes' since you're one of the very few people I can imagine actually getting some real benefit from them. Also, given all the training you put in and the coaching you receive, not to mention the fact that you're competing at a level where there are internationally agreed standards and regulations, you can't afford to fall for marketing hype.
Yes cmoi, it’s really important that we stick within the acceptable rules . These rules are changing fairly frequently now and tbh some of the manufacturers have started getting really silly with their stack heights. Asics have one shoe that’s over 45mm! That’s currently illegal as it exceeds the 40mm stack height rule. Thankfully there’s a new World Athletics Council rule effective from Nov 24 that restricts height to 20mm whatever the event. That will give the manufacturers time to start producing shoes with sensible stack heights and will help me and other sprint athletes who cannot train in high stack shoes as they are so unstable at the ankle. It’s getting a lot like F1 as Katnap said. The rules playing catching up with the technology. Until then I’m looking for a sensible pair of low stack training shoes. The hunt is still on.
In the meantime here’s a picture of my pile of super shoes lying redundant. Hopefully getting sold soon.
👍
Stack of old super shoes. There’s a few super spikes in here too.
That’s interesting Brian, and probably a long time coming. Stack height has been getting silly. I guess that will affect any marathon runner attempting to get that sub 2 hours again?
I should have been clearer TC. I may have got my information wrong. I’ve double checked and I think they new rule only affects track and field shoes. I believe the road shoe stack height is being kept at 40mm for now but I can’t find anything to confirm that. I’ll need to ask my coach. Shame as I was rather hoping they would pump a load of research into low stack road shoes which would be perfect for me.
I have to say I’ve not heard anything for road running but I’m sure it will come up in the next few months in my news and YouTube feeds if that is the case. My Pro 3s are just on the cusp but as I’m hardly likely to be winning any trophies it doesn’t really matter.
Oops, forgot to wish you joyeux anniversaire RunBrianRun , apologies!
I'm not necessarily averse to increased stack heights, but that's in the context of my pootling about on trails. I do however have a concern about the increased stack height of shoe boxes in the cupboard, which is desperately in need of tidying!
Thank you Cmoi. I’ve had a good day but failed to find any shoes that I like but Skins have sent me some rather natty sleep compression tights, which I’ll be trying tonight. They look very comfy I must say. I’m feeling really guilty about my shoe box stack, even though it has shrunk by several this year. I might hang on to those 4%s though as they were the first super shoe. You never know, people collect all sorts nowadays.
I keep finding shoes (and shorts and leggings and tops...) that I like - my problem is stopping myself from buying them, even though I already have more than enough stuff. I need to sort out all my shoes, not just running ones;the last thing I should be doing is adding to my stash.
How were the sleep compression tights? They sound scary to me! 😱
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Weekly chat October 24-30 ☕🍰