Where does the law stand?: I don't know if this is... - LUPUS UK

LUPUS UK

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Where does the law stand?

CarolMcl profile image

I don't know if this is happening throughout the UK but in Scotland we have these antivaxers deliberately trying to take people's masks off and also spitting at them!! It's a scary enough prospect going out with nearly all restrictions being lifted but now you have the added risk of being attacked.

My question is, if you assault someone knowing that you're putting their life at risk then it's treated as attempted murder, correct?? Well where do we stand being clinically vulnerable when there's a good chance covid could make us extremely unwell or dead? Should the assault from these antivaxers not be treated as attempted murder too?

59 Replies

If it happens in the us the charge would be the same regardless of the victim’s health status . It is charged as assault in my state.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Roarah

I spoke to a family friend who's a policeman and he reckons it's assault although believes it should be more. I just think that's so wrong, their idiotic behaviour could have serious consequences

would be hard to prove in court. unless there was cctv

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to suzannah16

I agree in remote circumstances but they're entering shopping arcades where there's both witnesses and CCTV. Come this Wednesday in Scotland, lanyards for the vulnerable are being issued so if people choose to wear them then there's no doubt they know who they're attacking

suzannah16 profile image
suzannah16 in reply to CarolMcl

I'm in Scotland and I haven't heard anything about this. admittedly I don't go out unless I have to but I haven't heard anything about lanyards or people being attacked.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to suzannah16

gov.scot/news/distance-aware/

Hi, it been on the 6pm Scottish news, I've added links to the newspaper reports previously. I hadn't heard of the lanyard scheme either until it was mentioned after the news report. On the government website it informs you that the lanyards will become available from this Wednesday

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to suzannah16

Me too - edinburgh. We need to merit in proportion

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to cathie

Keep it not merit - grr

jetjetjet profile image
jetjetjet in reply to suzannah16

One could always take some spit and keep it and DNA would be there and being a possible charge of attempted murder ?? it would be all the evidence one would need put it in a like a sterile urine sample bottle that was sealed - easy to get from a blood lab. well here anyways .

I didn’t know about this, absolutely awful. Is this just at vaccination centres or is it in general?

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Froggie70

No it's been in the newspapers and TV. Last weekend it was in Stirling shopping centre, yesterday was Buchanan Street centre. They're also intimidating people at vaccine centres too

Froggie70 profile image
Froggie70 in reply to CarolMcl

For goodness sake as if things aren’t hard enough. I really despair of some people. Well if anyone tries that with me they’ll get a good swift crack from my walking stick and they can do me for assault if they want. Thanks for letting us know. X

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Froggie70

My thoughts exactly and I'll have no regrets!! It's despicable that people can act this way x

CHEZZAD68 profile image
CHEZZAD68 in reply to Froggie70

Surely self-defence?

cathie profile image
cathie in reply to CarolMcl

No sign of this at Ingleston- edinburgh

It is certainly treated as an assault. I think attempted murder is a bit of a stretch as that's not their intention. I don't know everything they could be changed with but a hate crime might be for a start. It's putting vulnerable people at risk and a test case would certainly be useful as well as instructive.

The law probably hasn't caught up with the actions of such selfish people. Be anti vax if you want, but assault is assault. There is a specific crime of threatening someone with Covid or trying to give it to someone, which includes spitting. I don't know the full details but it's a serious offence.

I don't believe the majority of people will be doing this. It sounds like a small deranged minority. Keep your wits about you and try to keep your distance.. The chances of infection are slim. Wash it off and you should be fine if it happens and report them. I am on a stick so I can always hit them if it happens here. My stick offers me some protection from normal people, not from fanatics I fear. It's a crime and a serious assault. Always report, but its more than likely very rare.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Banditqueen

I'm sorry but knowing that people can become very sick or worse then what is their intention? If they happen to assault someone who is immunosuppressed, there's more than a slim chance of passing on infection

One idea I did think about is as there have been a number of incidents... including attacks and trying to bully people at Vaccination and testing centres why not treat this as terrorism?

Where they use physical threats, use actions or even interference such as cyber attacks, these all come under the broader range of terrorism laws. These groups are well known, well organised and yet little has been done collectively to stop them.

They use cyber crime to block book appointments and stop people getting vaccinated. That's terrorism. Attack in a crowd or a targeted manner is terrorism. Under anti terror laws they can be rounded up and held for questioning under the slightest suspicion. Round a few up and they will soon find people mean business. If you want them punished it has to be across the board. Stop them online, stop them at the sources, stop them with more security and hand them tough sentences. It may or may not be attempted murder, but under current legislation the best route against them are our terror laws. It's terror if you attack someone and assault them like that in every day and if your reason is that you don't agree with your face being covered etc, that is a hate crime and a terror attack. If you are a Muslim woman and I pull of your head covering or face covering off, I would have committed three crimes... Hate crime, assault, terrorism attack. Any or all three charges can be made against me. The same should apply to these assaults made by Covid deniers and anti vaxed nuts.

Time maybe to petition Parliament but there are enough laws to prosecute these fruit cases and evil people. Its terrible and its deadly. I still would question attempted murder but boy would I stamp on them and their backers as Covid terrorists, even if they only use words.

To me that is exactly what it is - attempted murder. They are adults. This whole thing isn’t new, so they know the risks. And they know what the virus does. I work in an ER and the same goes for people with hepatitis spitting in you. They can be charged here. But I live in Canada. What are people thinking??!!

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Willow7733

They don't think, they're only interested in intimidating people

I donot understand ,why ? Is it anything to do with the anti vacciners . If we choose to have the vaccine . I shielded for months I have SLE / Crest Overlap/ etc plus I have just have surgery for Cancer and am waiting for chemo too start. I look at this world these days and worry. Why wasn’t something done about these people who are risking our safety. If they choose too not have the vaccine they have that choice , however they should be removed by police if they disrupt people getting vaccinated . I have a cousin who is obsessed with all the anti vac on FB and all the rubbish that is fed on there I do think these are very worrying times. Life just got a lot harder , than it already was .

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Snoopdoggy

I saw the Stirling shopping centre march on the TV, they're was a big crowd in attendance. The reporter said that the police comment was that there were only 2 policemen on duty at the centre and to intervene would've caused more problems, also something about a right to demonstrate?? A demonstration yes, but not when people are frightened and threatened. Not when children and the elderly are left shaken and crying and not when there's a threat to health. I hope you receive your treatment soon

Treetop33 profile image
Treetop33 in reply to CarolMcl

Makes you wonder when they proclaim the right to demonstrate of this lot and then go after a bunch of small women protesting a murder.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Treetop33

Yes it certainly makes you wonder exactly how the law works

I would be so angry if anyone did this to me, what is wrong with these people? So far i have not seen any, been in Buchanan Galleries a few times, but thanks for the post as I will now be more careful and watch out for them. There should be cctv in there, I would certainly take it further if it happened to me.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Lizard28

glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/198...

It happened on Saturday, Stirling shopping centre was last weekend. I would definitely be taking it further too

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Lizard28

thescottishsun.co.uk/news/8...

Im feom the US and here you could go to jail for that. Here is one example but not sure wide-spread it is. I believe it is clasifies as an assault with biological weapon. thedailybeast.com/margaret-...

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Tanitani

I totally agree with that

I don't understand what you are angry with me for. I don't write the law. These people are nut cases but the law hasn't got it.

The law is made by pompous men and women who don't live in the real world. However, the body they vote in, Parliament, the Senate, claim to be the people's House and that's where you can change things.

Instead of screaming at me, why don't you go there and scream that you want to change the law to make such an assault attempted murder?

You seem perfectly capable of doing just that to me. It is a serious assault at the moment if someone complained they had been attacked. It may need to be made worse in some cases, but at the moment the law is assault, although under the Covid law its more serious as they are deliberately giving you a deadly virus. The presence of not more than a few cops is typical these days. Unless its a BLM demo, they stay away. It's a horrible thing to have to face. It should be dealt with severely.

But I am not the one you should be screaming at. Parliament is.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Banditqueen

Erm Im neither angry with you nor did I scream at you, I simply asked you a question as a forum such as this allows

Has there been a post deleted or am I just missing something because I can't see anything to suggest that Carol is screaming at or angry with you? Sorry if I'm being a bit thick. I'm in Scotland too and hadn't heard about this. Not that I go anywhere anyway, and I live in a rural area so not too many people on my walks. But it worries me. I feel like I'll never be able to go anywhere.

No, there haven't been any deleted posts. Thankfully there's only been 2 reports so far, which is 2 too many. Hopefully, there won't be anymore 🤞🤞

It seems this is a prosecutable offence …”Anyone who spits or coughs at someone to make them fear infection with Covid-19 will be prosecuted, the CPS have said.The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) was forced to make the law clear after reports of people coughing or spitting at emergency workers and members of the public.

Across the country, there have been claims of people using the threat of the virus to intimidate others…”

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Jpmoore

Thanks for that information 👍🏻

This information is from England. We don't have CPS in Scotland.

I’ve heard of this - disgusting- but how many incidents before we blow this up out of all proportion?

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to cathie

Cathie I honestly don't know but with the mentality of some folk I can see it escalating

Its hard to tell, but it doesn't feel as though the debate is particularly febrile here in Scotland. There's no mainstream political leadership to question the cautious strategy. I think that makes a huge difference. And the big push for jags is done, see spice-spotlight.scot/2022/0... shows high proportion of the population jagged twice and almost 70% three times.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to cathie

I really do hope your right. I agree Scotland has a high proportion of people vaccinated which is great news but there's still plenty of vulnerable people out there with no or very little immunity. Whilst they're thankfully in the minority, it's still a concern as people try to get back to some form of " normality".

Its charged as specific offence under Covid law. Its not attempted murder but its still a serious offence.

People are well aware of their actions but to expect these people to have the brains to care is too much. They don't and that makes it worse, even more deadly.

Some of them even think its funny because they deny the existence of Covid. However, calling it attempted murder needs a very serious look at the law and interpretation, reckless endangerment perhaps. I would also suggest it's rare and not something most of us would encounter, so maybe keep it in perspective.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Banditqueen

My initial post was a simple question asked after I heard and saw 2 news reports. I really do hope you never encounter it. So with regards to "keep it in perspective" I suggest you do the same with your replies!! We all have the right to ask questions in a polite manner and we should all expect to receive a response in the same way. Not everyone will agree with one another but everyone deserves a reply in a meaningful way. Criticism is a great tool, if used in a constructive manner.

Nobody is arguing with you.I don't think it's attempted murder and I have a right to say so.

You reported 2 attacks, that's what I mean, it's not everywhere. It's 2 bad attacks which I condemned if you read my posts. I also said be careful out there, if its a problem.

I stated what the law is. So did others. You might feel it should be attempted murder, I don't and I am just as entitled as you to say so. If you don't want to read my posts, you are free to ignore me. Best of luck with your life, hope you are well and remain safe.

We should be allowed to carry mace as in the states, but unfortunately we can't. If someone tries to do anything its an assault and as I have tried to explain nicely, the Covid law made this a serious offence. I don't know the full term but it can mean prison depending on the seriousness of the attack. Anything from wishing someone had Covid to making a threat to give them Covid is covered. Anything from spitting to remove masks to a physical assault is covered. Its a wide spectrum law. The only way to change the law is to lobby and petition MP and Parliament. Like anything unfortunately its a complex process.

If you believe it's attempted murder, good luck to you. Hope you can change the law. I don't. I think it's a very serious assault and yes thankfully it hasn't happened to me. They would be arresting me for belting them with my stick but that doesn't mean others don't think it should be.

You said you read this in the paper. Does that mean there are hundreds of people running around causing this harm? No. I am sure you take all precautions when out but I don't think you need to worry about this. That's why I said we need to have perspective. It's one or two arranged incidents, not thousands. Please, you are getting it out of proportion. I don't believe there are lots of people doing this. You are worrying a bit unnecessarily.

Enjoy your day and stay safe.

Cheers

LynMarie. 🙏❤️💜😎

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Banditqueen

This is the last time I'm going to answer you as you're too busy ranting to actually look at my post. I've never mentioned anyone arguing with me and as both of us have said, not everyone will agree about any given topic . I also never said that this was going on everywhere I specifically stated 2 reports which I both read about and watched the video on the news. I again never said there were hundreds of people running about causing this harm but if numbers are important to you, the news reel showed around 50 to 60 people marching. Numbers aren't important, it's their actions. The perspective you're asking for was in a post when I quite clearly responded to a reply informing them that it's happened twice and made no reference to " thousands" so at no time did I get it out of proportion.I also asked initially where we stand with these assaults and SHOULD it be treated as attempted murder?

If this were the case, I’d be traveling with pepper spray. Can you buy this in the UK? Come near me and I’ll blind you. Requires little effort. I’d carry something to protect myself for sure. Shouldn’t have to but I’d find great satisfaction in spraying one of these loons. I live in a pretty conservative area and while some ppl can be real a-holes, they are few and far between. Such a shame how this pandemic has brought out the worst in people.

Keep safe Carol. Sending hugs. ❤️xx

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Jmiller623

Yes unfortunately the bad minority can cause a lot of unwanted issues, especially at a time when people should be pulling together. I just really hope there won't be a repeat somewhere else. You keep safe too and thanks very much for your kind reply x

There is no such thing as legal pepper spray in the UK. Its an offensive weapon and only the cops can use it.

In America and other places there are forms used in self defence. Here it's illegal.

However, there is a none harmful alternative and its available on Amazon at £9.99.

Its called Self Defense Spray, containing no chemicals etc, does not cause temp blindness as pepper spray does, it covers the aggressive person in a sort of red paste or paint which is not harmful and only marks them. Its hard to get off clothes and can be used to mark them, fences etc safely. Its not harmful to skin and is enough of a deterrent to prevent an attack.

I would also recommend a sonic hand alarm. A wide variety of ones on the net and in some shops. Larger home and bargains may have one. Carry in pocket, on wrist or belt, around neck, in bag etc, released it stuns and makes a loud noise. Do make sure you practice first as the first time I took my new one out, forgot it was on wrist, pulled hand from pocket, pin flew out at till in Iceland, stunned the people in the queue... Maybe good for social distance.... 🤣🤣🤣. The girl at till was very good. Took a few minutes to find the pin and turn off. I just carry in my pocket now and am used to it. Only needed it once but it does work and very easy now I used to it. Various ones available, some better than others. Air compression one at home... Provided by community police... Very good. You have to be careful with self defence in the UK. But there are legal options available and online or some stores. Maze or pepper spray isn't one unfortunately as it causes blindness for a short while. Stiletto heals used to make a good weapon but don't wear them now🤣.

Just being aware of the situation around you and knowing most incidents are very rare and targeted. I will not be looking for someone taking my mask off as doubt it will be anywhere around here. But I do keep my alarm handy and use my stick as a barrier. I will try and get one of those badges. Not that I expect anyone to actually read it. However, I did ask someone to wait while I selected an item yesterday and good enough they did. Tesco metro have there medical and baby shelves in a bottle neck route to the till. You can't move. So if busy everyone wants to get passed if you stop to shop at this section. I am on a stick and have to ensure I am not off balance. So some people just have to wait for me to finish. A trolley, even an empty one is a good social distance barrier.

Yeah. That’s exactly why I asked. I know some “weapons” are banned and thought pepper spray might fall under that category. I live in the US (if not clear based on context). The alarm and marking spray is a good idea but it won’t stop the craziest of the crazies. I grew up in Baltimore City (look it up, it’s infamous). Dealt with my fair share of crime. Anti-vaxxer loons are a drop in the bucket for me after dealing with dodging bullets. Don’t make me come over there and make things right!!!😂😂😂😳

Thanks for the tips. I’m so glad it seems people are being respectful of your boundaries for the most part. Same over here. Not much to report. But it does interest me as to how people could be so worked up to touch/bother other people. I’m sure they were a nice person before the pandemic…. Maybe.

Get a loud, flashing light personal Safety Alarm!🚨

Lots of good reviews to stop attacks in public places.👍

Get a loud, flashing light personal Safety Alarm!🚨

Lots of good reviews to stop attacks in public places.👍

Hi - I'm from Australia,Our health Minister recently came out and said deliberately transmitting covid could mean a life sentence.

We seem to be the poster child country for coming down hard on anti - vaxers right now.

Being very immuno supressed- I definately enjoy this law - but the rate of political proceedure re - tweaking a law change here is eye watering.

Now all we need is a law for people who don't consider their noses part of the mask wearing process.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Freckle1000

Sounds like we could learn a lot from your health minister!! Oh I couldn't agree more, it really annoys me when people don't cover their noses with a mask or worse still, seeing them pulling the mask down to have a conversation, really!!

Yep....torally agree. Its absolutely terrifying for us. Here healthy people who believe they'lle only get mild Omricon are purposely getting themselves infected - just to get it over and done with so they can get on with their lives. Our hospitals are buckling.

I just had to rip my father out of nursing home outbreak. It's chaos.

Being from Victoria -were sort of lucky.

When the latest wave hit - we're so used to long mandatory lock downs - when the latest wave hit - without government decree the majority of people just isolated out of fear and or decency.

Also - most anti - has activity has recently ceased to be covered by media - to stop giving them oxygen.

Similar thing happened here with terrorism. The headlines would puposely label clear headed terrorists as mentally ill.

CarolMcl profile image
CarolMcl in reply to Freckle1000

It's certainly not like that here, a lot of decisions have come down to money. I can totally understand that we have to maintain an economy and unfortunately businesses have now ceased to exist, it's a double edged sword. On the other hand it can be a very frightening prospect for the immunosuppressed even going to the shops/pharmacy etc as not everyone has the support they need. Masks here are mandatory in shopping areas yet you see so many people without them and I've yet to see anyone being challenged even when there's notices stating no entry unless masks are worn with the exception of medical exemption

Freckle1000 profile image
Freckle1000 in reply to CarolMcl

Before the vaccines - we were all very socialist about it all and put health before business - ( our vaccines were VERY late in arriving ) Amazingly enough between lockdowns we had some amazing patches were contact tracing was so obsessively good there were next to no cases and the economy was open for short - happy care free periods.

This time round the government took a too early punt thinking the Omicron would be relatively harmless and create herd immunity forever......🙄 - so they let nearly everything rip.

So many people have been infected - most businesses can't find staff so just as many businesses are going bust. Supply chains are only just hanging in there. Supermarket shelves are suffering.

Hospitality however remains freakishly open.

Going down the street here sounds equally bad as over there. I wish healthy people would have better consideration for the vaulnerable.

I've decided to isolate until this wave has died down. It's a bit rough. I'm in desperate need of a haircut etc - food is very basic.

My GP recommended n95 masks if I absolutely have to go out. According to him at least - if well fitted they offer very good protection against infection.

The theory here is you spray perfume in front of a fitted one and can't smell it - you've sealed it well enough.

................

This whole pandemic has really shone a light on the limits of human insight and morality. It's an eye opener.

- ps . The guy who runs our state got to a point of frustion and said - once vaccination rates reached a safe level - he'd open up and - he didn't care if anti - vaxers ended up dead. It was their own choice. It's been fairly full on here.

We've had a lot of hitches and now nearly all restrictions have been lifted so we'll see what happens. The majority of foodstuffs have been available, any shortages recently have been put down to drivers self isolating. We also have a shortage of drivers due to Brexit. It's the ffp3 that I wear (similar to n99), a really good seal on it. I can totally understand where he's coming from, if you're against the vaccine then you take your chances and the consequences

Get a loud, flashing light personal Safety Alarm!🚨

Lots of good reviews to stop attacks in public places.👍

Get yourself a little water pistol filled with something like cochineal….harmless…but looks alarming & a devil to wash out! You’d probably get fined…but I reckon it would be worth it!

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