Kresser vs Khan, a complete analysis

[andyswarbs]

The recent Joe Rogan podcast between Chris Kresser and Joel Kahn, which itself lasted four hours has been thoroughly analysed in two videos by AskYourself and DrAvi. This debate pitched low carb vs high carb and is one of the most watched Joe Rogan podcasts, ever.

AskYourself and DrAvi start by saying they come from a pro-vegan standpoint, but that does not stop them being equally harsh on Joel Kahn, Chris Kresser and even Joe Rogan. The analysis is over two videos, the first is 8 hours long and the second one is 5 hours. So this is not for the faint hearted. It is supported by links and comments to each research paper at discordapp.com/channels/437...

However for anyone wanting to really unerstand when Kresser beats Kahn, and vice-versa this is the place to start. Besides that you can gain significant understanding research studies, meta-analyses, statistical variance and much more this is a whole course in the subject.

youtube.com/watch?v=Q9mL7Mq...(Not working as expected?)

[Cooper27 Administrator]

Is it available as a podcast? I can maybe listen to a podcast, but 13 hours is a big time commitment for watching something.

I didn't think Kresser/Khan particularly debated carbohydrates? The general conclusion seemed to be a similar one - plant based is best, only Kresser thinks you should include a little meat with it. And Kresser and Khan disagreed on the risks of too much saturated fat.

[andyswarbs in reply to Cooper27]

On my phone I use youtube minimize app to listen to videos where what is on screen is not as important. It also has the advantage that the phone can be in my pocket while I listen on a headset.

This is such a long analsysis that it needs to be taken in bites. The detail is so very intensive. Right now I am at around five hours and I am learning so much that I need to let is sink in.

[Cooper27 Administrator in reply to andyswarbs]

I don't subscribe to YouTube, so don't have the ability to listen while the app is minimised unfortunately! Maybe someday....

[andyswarbs in reply to Cooper27]

Take a look at

discordapp.com/channels/437...

which is the repository for all the papers cited with commentary.

If you don't sub to yotube, do you avoid all social media? I know that some people mirror things onto facebook and instagram, though don't know in this case.

[andyswarbs in reply to andyswarbs]

Perhaps try podsync.net/ to convert youtube into a podcast feed

[andyswarbs]

They both made mistakes. Joel Kahn was slammed badly for arguing about the benefits of TMAO. Kresser clearly won that. Kahn was trying to argue that petri dish tests were fundamental and so should be heeded, while Kresser argued there was no evidence that moving from Omni to Vegan had the desired results, from a vegan perspective. The analysts described the TMAO argument as a rabbithole that all vegans should avoid.

On the other hand Kresser quotes the Bradford Hill equation in support of his stance at one point, and the analysts demolish him. Kahn could have dealt a serious body blow to Kresser with the Hegsted Equation and saved 30 minutes of wandering.

From the analysts perspective it should be all about understanding and applying the evidence hierarchy ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl....

For example Kresser argues that newer research has greater weight. But research does not time out. Yes it can be superceded and proved wrong, but that in no way says all old research is rubbish.

For a winner, Kresser is a formidable debater while Kahn is a doctor looking at the detail and, according to this analysis was insufficiently prepared. But they both wandered off point trying to find ground where they felt comfortable.

As for Joe Rogan, he comes out pretty well, only showing any non vegan bias on a few occasions. One of which was a private jibe he shared with Kresser against vegans that left them both smiling.

[Zest]

Hi Andy,

I hope to look at this on the weekend. Thanks for sharing it.

Hope you have a really good day.

Zest

[andyswarbs]

To help people understand the contents of the analysis here are the timestamps where the analysts go through the debate in detail

Timestamps:

8:00 Start

12:08 Macrobiotic vegan difference

14:58 One size fits all diet

19:05 Kresser’s problem with epidemiological studies

27:50 Evidence hierarchy

37:37 Food frequency questionnaires

42:53 Archer’s claims on underreported caloric intake

1:02:15 Isaac summarizes the last 20 mins

1:09:40 Epidemiological studies control for lifestyle factors

1:13:30 Relative risk and absolute risk

1:42:31 Centenarian studies

1:50:08 7th day Adventist studies

1:54:15 Epic Oxford study/Health food shoppers study/Oxford vegetarian study

2:04:44 Heidelberg vegetarian study

2:07:25 45 and up study

2:13:56 Feedback on Kahn’s performance

2:19:29 Kresser’s throwaway statements and false claims

2:23:42 Lifespan mortality rates between vegetarians and omnivores

2:26:50 Meat consumption and increased risk of cancer

2:32:36 Mechanistic speculation

2:40:55 Debate advice from Avi

2:52:00 Saturated fat, cholesterol, and the Hegsted equation

2:59:12 Kresser’s bad meta no. 3 (Harcombe)

3:09:30 Kresser’s bad meta no. 1 (Krauss)

3:18:39 Kresser’s bad meta no. 2 (Chowdhury)

3:32:25 USDA guidelines 2015 fact check

3:39:00 Grape seed moment

3:45:38 More feedback on Kahn’s performance

3:53:40 Eggs, cholesterol, and the risk of heart disease

4:03:22 Hegsted equation in detail

4:10:23 Low carb diets and diabetes

4:16:10 Collective gish galloping, and debate advice

4:28:28 Old studies tho

4:32:12 Bradford Hill criteria for epidemiological studies

4:45:27 Meta-analysis of 395 metabolic ward studies on dietary lipids and blood cholesterol

4:50:50 Old studies tho part 2

4:55:44 Loaded question “Why are the new studies showing something different to the old studies?”

5:01:55 2015 Hooper-Cochrane review on cardiovascular disease

5:04:38 Joe’s hilarious obsession with dismissing epidemiological studies cuz old tho

5:10:23 Further feedback on Kahn’s performance

5:18:31 Kahn on point about low carb diets not necessarily being high in saturated fat

5:22:02 8 Meta analysis or systematic reviews implicating saturated fat with increased risk of total/cardiovascular mortality or morbidity metrics

5:35:20 Added feedback on Kahn’s performance

5:39:18 Calling out Kresser’s strawman

5:42:40 Other feedback on Kahn’s performance

5:49:20 Kresser on point

5:51:05 Dismissing Kresser’s claim on the 7th day adventist study

5:53:00 List of Kresser’s inconsistencies so far

5:57:55 Hooper-Cochrane review was on morbidity metrics not mortality metrics

6:11:00 Kresser makes a false claim on saturated fat

6:12:27 View on industry funded studies

6:16:05 “What is wrong with what he said?”

6:19:31 Kresser being dishonest on his studies not being debunked

6:28:27 Kahn reads from the new testament

6:30:20 Kresser has not refuted Kahn’s data

6:33:43 “It happens in you!”

6:35:27 Rogan being a fair moderator and Kresser’s weak concession

6:38:49 Kresser again makes false claims on saturated fat

6:43:00 Addition to Kresser’s list of inconsistencies

6:45:49 Kahn’s mechanistic speculations

6:46:20 Intergenerational cat studies meme

6:49:00 Methionine tho

6:57:56 Relative risk again

7:05:30 Kresser’s inconsistency on the evidence hierarchy

7:08:52 Kresser yet again makes false claims on saturated fat

7:13:33 Advice on pushing for concession on the Hegsted equation

7:20:42 “What is wrong with his studies?” again

7:22:27 Kahn on point with the Hegsted and Keys equation

7:26:50 Outdated tho (old tho)

7:30:28 The importance of the equations

7:31:30 Kahn feedback on using questions in a debate

7:32:26 Hegsted equation is not a mechanism

7:38:20 Kresser on the two types of LDL cholesterol measurements

7:39:10 Major problems with Kresser’s eggs and cholesterol study

7:42:40 Concluding part 1

[andyswarbs]

Here is the second video

youtube.com/watch?v=V3toqx6...(Not working as expected?)

And here are the timestamped bullet points

0:24 Introduction

4:13 Response to Kahn’s comments

14:28 The confounding factors that were controlled for in the Epic Oxford Study and the Health Food Shoppers Study from part 1

21:00 Diet switching in the Epic Oxford / OVS studies

38:40 Isaac and Avi summarize the last 25 mins

39:18 Resuming the podcast

41:04 TMAO (Trimethylamine N-oxide) argument starts to unfold

42:54 The fibrosis of kidneys in relation to TMAO

46:21 Explaining what TMAO is and why it is a bad argument

54:10 Kahn pointing out Kresser’s inconsistency on epidemiological studies

59:13 Kresser’s TMAO graph

1:05:51 TMAO and the gut microbiome

1:07:15 Fasting TMAO levels

1:12:00 Kahn not addressing the study

1:19:00 Dioxins in fish

1:21:53 Old tho

1:24:00 There is still an ethical problem with eating fish

1:25:07 Kresser speculating on which diets change microbiome composition

1:28:16 High fasting TMAO levels are what is correlated with atherosclerosis

1:32:50 Debate advice on staying out of situations that make you look bad

1:33:41 Thoughts on nutritional reductionism

1:40:07 Kahn’s speculations

1:46:35 The Yazdekhasti paper

1:48:22 Cat studies meme

1:51:20 Fish makes diabetes tho

1:58:10 Final point addressing TMAO

2:13:32 Bad ethical arguments for veganism

2:15:44 Responding to the chat’s objections, and reading through and commenting on the l-carnitine study

2:34:22 Importance of the evidence hierarchy

2:51:11 Summary of Avi’s response to the l-carnitine study

2:55:20 Resuming the podcast

2:59:48 Kahn derails from TMAO to diabetes and general health as a result of fish consumption

3:04:06 Methionine tho

3:08:21 Glycine tho

3:08:53 Fish Consumption and Incidence of Diabetes Meta-analysis

3:18:20 Nutritional black box tho

3:21:05 Meat allergy lone star tick

3:23:25 Rogan’s bias?

3:27:57 Rogan’s interest in the lone star tick

3:28:48 Glyphosate tho

3:29:56 Statistics and astrological signs tho

3:37:18 Isaac summarises Kresser’s medical sophistry

3:38:47 Relative risk tho

3:39:40 Association between maternal gluten intake and type 1 diabetes in offspring (Gluten tho)

3:44:23 Assertions that there could be other confounding factors that were not controlled for in the studies

3:52:50 B12 tho

4:04:40 Humans can get B12 from dirt and water myth

4:06:46 Things that vegans need to stop saying

4:11:41 “Vegans living without supplementation are not living a healthy life”

4:13:10 Kahn demonstrates his simple B12 solution

4:15:49 “Diets do not need to be supplement free” (Natural tho)

4:19:00 Kahn demonstrates how easy supplementing is once more

4:23:00 Iodine tho

4:23:58 Nutrients tho (+ more B12 tho)

4:27:15 Calcium tho

4:28:08 Zinc tho

4:36:53 Choline tho

4:38:35 Taurine tho

4:39:45 Retinol tho (Vitamin A)

4:55:44 EPA & DHA tho

4:57:20 Selenium tho

4:59:52 Iron tho

5:07:38 Ancestors tho

5:08:40 “Water fasting for a year!?”

5:11:40 Moral obligation to stop contributing to animal agriculture

5:12:55 Vitamin C tho

5:19:22 Speculations on gut microbiome

5:26:04 Comments on the Ornish and Esselstyn studies

5:30:05 Another TMAO study

5:35:40 Kresser shifts his standards

5:38:29 Nutrient density tho

5:50:50 “Oh I have…”

5:51:20 Conclusion