No deal Brexit will mean shutting off most of the supply capacity from the EU to Great Britain, as the government says this will be chaotic. Many of the effects are unknown but in the days and weeks that follow food supplies and medicine supplies will start to fail. The rules on moving money about and even making a phone call will be largely undefined. International travel will get unknown new bureaucracies. EU and WTO law means there also needs to be a hard border in Ireland again, restarting terrorist warfare. Inflation will kick in, unemployment will sky rocket and people will die.
Although the UK government has dropped the dangerous saying of “no deal is better than a bad deal” it is astonishing they were allowed to get away with saying that for so long without challenge. There are still many members of the UK government who are perfectly happy with a chaotic no deal Brexit and the Prime Minister, unwilling to change any tactics, is using more and more Populist language to say how everyone should support her and threaten the whole UK society in the greatest game of chicken since the cold war. It would be trivial to revoke the Article 50 process but unless that is chosen a no deal Brexit will happen.
The political process is broken and has been for many years on this topic, there is no campaign from the normal groups I would expect to have one that I can join. The SNP, Greens and Quakers are not doing what they would usually do and enabling their members to have a voice. Religions in general exist to look after their members in times of crisis but so far nobody in Quakers that I’ve spoken to has any interest in many any practical mitigation steps.
Most people in Britain still think it’ll never happen as the politicians will see sense and back down, but they are wrong because the politicians are not acting rationally they are acting very irrationally and all it takes for no deal Brexit to happen is for no other decision to be taken.
So I find myself waving an European flag in Edinburgh each evening for the People’s Vote campaign, a London based campaign with a load of problems but the only one going. I’ll go to London this weekend to take part in the giant protest there.
Please come along if you live in the UK. Please also sign the petition to revoke article 50. Wish us luck.
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I've signed various petitions, dropped my allegiance to the Labour party and joined the Lib Dems solely for the purpose of supporting their campaign for a 2nd referendum. I can't join their march in London this weekend but have donated to the cause as I can only see leaving the safety of the EU as catastrophic for ourselves and our children. Why try to fix something which isn't broken by replacing it with chaos.
I'm already receiving emails from my insurance company regarding special measure for travelling/driving abroad and have had essential medications removed from my repeat prescription list as they're unavailable nationally (suspected due to stockpiling). The real possibility of drug shortages alone is an unthinkable prospect for the millions of people reliant on heart/cancer/anti-seizure/diabetes treatment, and many other vital meds. And that's only the tip of the iceberg.
I'm so angry at the fact we're being 'governed' by clowns who insist they're fulfilling the wishes of the majority in delivering Brexit when the results of the referendum were SO close, and so many leavers now admit they'd no understanding whatsoever of the implications and had relied on the tabloids for guidance.
So good on you Jonathan ; I feel a little less isolated reading your post ! Cat x
Hello cat the result was clear, leave, not leave in name only, if Remainers want to continue to be ruled by the communist eu then leave and go to live in Europe we do not want you, if you cannot accept the result of a democratic vote you are in the wrong place, I knew and so did 17.4million what we voted for we never liked the unelected eu official ruling and making laws against us, so how are you cat not been on here for some time, it was depressing me so I took a break, nothing personal in reply, xxxxx
The result was not clear. It was the smallest of margins on a franchise that didn't include millions of UK residents based on lies and criminal activity from the leave campaign.
First time I've ever heard the EU called communist
Marginal like over 1.4million, unelected officials making laws and rules for the people that is communism it lasted 70 years the eu will not last that long, Mr best out of three that is what you are saying. Maybe you should get a job in the EU, Democracy Prevention officer sounds about right for you, you are the weakest link goodbye,
What is unelected in the eu? The commissioners are appointed directly by our elected governments, the people elect the parliament and the people elect the council.
Note I appreciate non trolling discussion but mind this post is not about leave vs remain but about avoiding chaotic no deal
It is only the fear mongers that are trying to scare people. Well I am for one and 17.4 million others who are not, if you have been keeping up with events very little will be delayed or stopped because the eu farmers will suffer and we can buy most things elsewhere, I buy food from all over the world right now as I am in Thailand till April Canadian bacon is really nice chilian grapes as well the list goes on, no offence meant pal,
Yes just as they do everyday and nothing to do with Brexit, we'll not yet, first we should start with the celebrity luvvies who are trying to cancel Brexit they can die first, I bet they do not get 17.4 million votes,
I don't believe all these threats of doom and gloom will happen if we leave the Eu.
Many of these stories are made up in order to frighten people into wanting to remain. The stock piling is typically British. At the first sight of snow must dash out and fill the spare room with toilet rolls 😁 There is a world market out there beyond Europe
that will be more than happy to trade with us.
I had to laugh when not long ago we were told we would have no lettuce or tomatoes. I think this country is quite capable of producing our own.
We survived many years before joining the common market as it was called way back when and we will do just fine without them.
We give the EU billions of pounds and I cant see what we get for our money??
I you shut off supply chains then those supplies will get though. You could reconfigure the economy to be self sufficient if second world war levels of food were fine with you but that takes months and years to do.
The supply chains depend on the free movement of goods through a small number of ports. Take away freedom and the port capacity will be reduced to a minimum.
Truth is that no one knows how Brexit will affect us yet. I don't think either side can categorically say we'll be okay. But the fact is that Brexit will be a new 'thing' and therefore represent changes whereas remaining in the EU would mean continuation of the way things are now.
The poorer areas of the UK utterly overlooked by our own governing bodies have received billions in grants for obvious infrastructure like roads, development funds for projects like teaching those over 60 how to use the web to avoid social isolation and ill health (that I was employed by), support to voluntary community groups and many, many other things that are less easy to define like sharing crucial knowledge and fostering cooperation in education, science, technology, health, security, transport, safety and other policy areas and standards and regulations that has saved and improved all our lives. Our technical experts and scientists were key to this and much of this, having taken decades of collaboration and effort is now being lost. We will have no seat at the table and much less influence. I'm sad so many knew nothing about it and how well respected the UK people in these meetings were and that our voice was heard.
Have you ever been interested in European road safety directives, that mean good practice in one country means it is expected and delivered in other member states? It is a structure to compare and hold those governing to account. Sharing knowledge is surely a good thing?
Yes there's a world out there, but it really helps to get on with your neighbours :-).
No. It's very difficult to assess the cost/benefit and price on something like international diplomacy and joint country working. And peace. And regulations and standards that are boring to most of us and go unseen. And Europe wide organisations like EUROTOM and ETSC. There are things the goverment call 'wider economic benefits' for any spending on any project or funding. It's readily available to search online to look at some data though. It's not 'giving away' in that sense. We didn't beg. We got huge amounts back after assessment of need. Much analysis shows we got more back that we put in. European Social Funds meant very poor elderly marginalised people in my home town got access to computers, and tutors that the local Borough and national Government hadn't provided or even seen the need to provide to ignored people, due to local 'lack of funds'. Our local housing association applied and won the funding. Noone knew it was EU funds paying for the laptops, or my skills and time. They didn't care as what they got made such a difference to their lives. Many of them had fought in wars and many of them were from France and Italy and had ended up living and having families in the UK. Yes it would have been great if our taxes had gone straight to my post code, but for historical and other reasons my post code has been poor for decades and not got those funds from the UK government directly. I am angry at the overlooked parts of my country and generations of underinvestment and poverty. But I didn't blame the EU vs the English Parliament.
What price is funding the poorer parts of the UK and EU so that there is better cohesion and prosperity and peace?
Yes there are huge issues with freedoms that lead people to feel some people are getting 'more out' than they 'contributed to' and there were unintended consequences to some of the four pillars like freedom of movement. The UK had a right to put its case forward and object to these or negotiate better terms or derogations.
I'm trying to find a good analogy. I pay a tiny monthly fee to use an online shopping service, and in return I get priority slots and other concessions and offers that I need and use. I weighed up the pros and cons and it works well for me. But I can cancel at any time. If there's another provider that may give me a service at a price I can afford. The only difference is that I am responsble for managing the allocation of funds and it's transparent to me to see what I personally get in and get out. But my community doesn't benefit from this one small instance and I don't see how they use their budgets. I am happy to pay in to the best of my abilities, into a system where I can see tangible benefits and people are accountable to me. Do you think your use of the NHS or roads or education is 'just grants'? For years we have had influence to protect markets and be at the heart of how international standards are written, delivered and enforced. That's all at risk.
Grants - these were direct payments back out of the central EU pots. It might be worth looking to see where these millions went and the huge benefits areas and people received in terms of your local economies. I have sat scared in meetings where I realised that if a deal went ahead, it meant an employer or industry could base themselves here, with the UK's good academic links, and provide jobs for thousands, as well as putting the investment into very poor wards that needed money. I have also seen laws passed that meant safety in the UK was improved and lives saved. Who cares where the law was passed?
I disagree vehemently with bureacracies that waste millions. But we were a powerful player with a seat at the table. Now whose table are we at? The doubt in itself is not good for stability as we don't know the outcomes. And it was a guess on both Leave and Remain sides at the possible outcomes. There were and are huge lies told and it disturbs me that people are believing such patent fabrications and guesses. The work of the Government departments has been distracted by this for years and real issues with the NHS and schools, social care and policing aren't getting the attention they need.
As you say there's loads of problems with the People's Vote idea (starting with the name). But it's the only campaign around just now to stop a no deal brexit which is critical for the reasons I outline above.
I'll see you in London! Never marched before but feel very strongly about this and the future of the country for my children and young people who mainly voted remain.
No doubt taught by lefty snowflake teachers who did not give them the whole facts, when my grandchildren want to know something they ask me and not the teachers, I have and my friends have Avast amount of knowledge and expertise and experience between us, we are not fooled by the media, which makes us enemies of the State
I will jump in to the fray with hopefully not not too many incendiary remarks. We have Free Speech! I voted 'Leave' as I believe that GB (with the right leadership) will do a lot better than it has been. I have been fed up with the status quo (for many years) of bowing to Brussels and abiding by all the regulations. Free movement has benefitted Europeans but not us in particular with keeping wages low and radically changing our culture and population....but not so far irreparably. I have lived in many European countries and more recently, lets take Sweden e.g., have been worried witless at their changing culture and population. I have relations and friends there so strong ties. But I want to be able to govern our own borders and choose who we have come. Btw, I am not a racist before anyone launches in. The EU was increasingly becoming a Superstate, tightening up its regulations for ever closer Union. Well we are an Independent nation with strong sovereignty. There are so many reasons for why I voted, not just the above, but those were the main. As for the doom mongers....I simply don't believe them. Of course we can build strong trade links with the rest of the world and tariffs will be cheaper. I was listening to a program last night regarding pharmaceutical medications - The EU depend far more on us than we on them for meds.
So far, I think May has been hopeless and incompetent to say the least. Thank god now the EU leaders have stepped in to help smooth the pathway for an orderly exit. But in my view, we should be Leaving without a Deal.
Your argument for restrictive borders which take away my freedom is quite contrary to how I'd like to live. I voted Yes in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum and Si in the 2014 Catalan independence referendum but if I thought for a moment that would result in hard borders around Scotland or Catalunya which would stop people from being free to live there or me being able to live in England or Spain I would have voted otherwise.
Too many votes you are either English or not if you are not English then keep out of our affairs and I will keep out of yours, remember when the quisling Remainers thought they were going to win the were cock a hoop, but now they have lost too many Teddy bears have been thrown out of the pram boo hoo, no offence meant
What am I then? I was born here. Brought up here. Studied and worked here. Paid taxes. Two of my grandparents born in England, one in Ireland, one in South Africa. Am I English enough for you? I am no quisling and you are being offensive.
You voted in Scotland and catalan and England so how many countries do you want to vote in why not add Peru or america or even Japan, you should only have one vote the country you were born in, not offensive at all, if you were born in Thailand you would not be thai, if a dog was born in a stable would it be a horse, last year a coloured man possibly a illegal immigrant was telling me he was English now, he could only just make himself understood,
Is he English no and never will be, if I lived in Scotland I would never be Scottish nor would I pretend to be, my family going back many hundreds of years and there is 10sof thousands of us who are all English, I have one passport UK and that should be a English one
I hope that answers your question, no offence meant, but today in a PC world no matter what you say you will offend someone, I mix with many nationalities we tell jokes about each other Jews included we have a laugh and we all get on with each other, and I have not met one yet that supports the EU they all want out and the uk to leave so they can do the same, quisling was not personally at you but as a generalisation the same as I as a Brexiteers have been called a racist facist and Nazi, am I offended no I just give back as good as I get. Have a nice day brother, I all all my international friends this
I think you are mistaken as I have never expressed how I have ever voted in any election. I do vote in England. Many fought and died and demonstrated for me to have the right to have that voice. You called someone a quisling which means traitor and was written with intent. This is a slur and an undeniably offensive term and oversteps a line. It is speech that leads to very nasty acts and you seem to use it and other similar terms and call people things without caution. I am no traitor. Name calling really distracts from healthy debate and exchange, like booing and mooing noises in the House of Commons. Tacking on 'no offense meant' to deliberately offensive statements is still offensive. Lefties? Snowflakes? Enemies of the State? Luvvies? Communists? You are the weakest link? Really?
I asked a different question - am I English? I find it interesting that you haven't answered that.
How can you tell by the colour of someone's skin if they are an immigrant or an illegal immigrant? Could you tell by the colour of my skin or my voice or accent? What about when I speak in French? Does that make a difference? Many people from all over the world fought for the British Forces and weren't white or born in England. Who 'deserves' to be born or live anywhere? Comparing animals and people in one sentence is odd and disturbing logic.
You have also denied someone's point as you have deemed them not English. I am English. I agree with them. I find it very sad that very narrow lines of identity are being drawn to separate us and I have found racial slurs being thrown around, as you have, about who has and hasn't the 'right' to speak. We all have and that comes with responsibilites to not incite hatred.
I am not politically correct - that is itself an attempt to discredit what I say. It won't work.
Everyone you know may want out of the EU but that is not the experience of everyone who is English, or British, or has a right to live and vote in the UK, or who disagrees with you, or who uses this forum. I do not think my experience is that of everyone, or 'most people' either, I speak for myself.
So sister we disagree but I accept your reply and have respect for your point of view from your perspective, some time ago I met a black American we got on great we talked about many things religion race colour etc, as we were parting company I said, you know what the things I have said in certain quarters I would be called a racist, he started laughing and so did his friends, he then said you ain't no racist brother you just say it as it is, as they walked away I heard one of his white friends say, what a nice guy, sure is he said, lots of love to you sister, and yes you are english if you embrace our lifestyle and culture, but many here in my country do not and seek to destroy us as too many recent events not just here but worldwide has shown us Amen.
I'm English, no ifs or buts or qualifying that. I'm also a bit of this and that and human at heart. It's hard to explain what my or our lifestyle and culture is. It's got to have a mix of tea and pies and debate in somewhere!
Would love to have a cup of tea and a pie with you, I really like a intelligent woman who I can talk to but tiredness and past events feeling alone can get in the way, but then I wake up the next day and feel lucky that I have, it can be a beautiful world, Desiderata have you read it, xxx
I'd like that. You've taught me a lot. And made me smile as it's good to be challenged. Tiredness, the past and feeling alone strikes most of us here it seems, and you put it well.
Yes I have. It's a timely reminder and good to read again, thank you. I always confuse it with the Serenity Prayer (or Poem for those of us who are less religiously inclined) which my grandmother had in many forms liberally sprinkled about the house. When bored and in the days before mobile phones I would count the different versions (or knitting needles).
I realised how powerfully your words had kicked off some instinct in me and I was a bit surprised. I hope you don't mind the following detail: my grandmother's mother was Welsh and so she grew up in the only Catholic family on their mountainside. She taught me bits of the language in her last years that she thought I should know, and of course the national anthem, but as it was seen as best to only speak in English to be seen as educated and to get ahead it had never been encouraged for me to even know about them. That part of my family were looked down on ('that chit of a girl from the valleys' was one stinging rebuke she overheard from the posher side that seared into even her daughter's memory). Only when I visited Wales for work, and put up with some really odd offhand comments from my colleagues about the dour and slow and short Welsh did I realise I was accidentally tapping into to something very familiar. I have laughed on arrival in countries where I am greeted like a local and have had some difficulty explaining in their native tongue that I'm not a local. We see what we want sometimes I suppose.
You've taken my rebukes with generosity, grace and humility. Be cheerful spartan300 and happy to spar or chat if ever you want
I am smiling and laughing now, I also have Welsh blood on my mother's side they were potters and came here to work in the 1800 hundreds, I lived in Wales for nearly 3 years and was treated well by them they called me yorky never my name, I can take rebukes as I am battle hardened after my brain Injury and other things, nearly dying alone does change you,
If someone says something bad to me I just say that is the nicest thing that someone has said to me all week, shuts them up, as for teaching you have also given me a lesson I will not forget I will try to put my brain into gear before I touch the keyboard, I may seem to offend but that is never my intention, my friends say they know where they stand with me and trust me implicitly I make a very good friend, what I did find in Wales was that there is a North and south divide which I did find strange, when I had only been in Wales for a few months a friend invited me to a 21st birthday party at Cardiff arms park rugby club free bar after a few hours they all stood up and started singing in Welsh,
I thought what shall I do so I just sat there with all the faces looking daggers at me, when they stopped about 30 of them surrounded me and asked why I had not stood up and sang the Welsh national anthem, foolish me said I did not know you had one and I did not know what you was singing about as I do not speak Welsh it could have been happy birthday no one told me, that only made it worse so after about 30 minutes of insults to me they moved on, still laugh about now
Nowdays they have these polytunnel tents so we wont starve, I was buying Kentish strawberries up until November. More Countries than the EU who will sell to us and I detest scaremongers. Also a Doctor said No one will go without medicines needed. So ignore the scaremongers x
Get better soon !!! and do not come on here scaremongering as this is a health line..Remainers Tut !! We wont starve and you'll be able to go for a jimmy anytime you want. Now get off here if you are spouting nonsense ..Grow up as some people on here do not need stress!! from the likes of you
Send it to the one who started the debate and it was not me I only replied to the post, that is democracy which the fear monger Remainers want, so do not post if you are not going to like the response you are going to get, have a nice day and I mean that, xxx john
Hoping your weekend goes well, I'm there in spirit.
Your experience of the Quakers disappoints me, I'm not religious but have been tempted to join the them in the past, as now a healing process needs to be found for our countries.
Oh I love the Quakers and am a life long Quaker. I'm just annoyed that on this vital issue there a no engagement. But my point is thats the same for every other activist group.
The rift is so large and the fear of the soft right so great that everyone is adrift.
The healing process will be a long and tortuous, the one positive thing is we can see the benefit of our parliament taking control, we have a brighter future with silver linings.
Was pleased to be a one in a million in the march. We cannot afford to leave the EU without a deal. We may not starve, but definitely risk our NHS and drug shortages amongst the many other things we all depend upon and which I haven't got the energy to write atm.
No one knew the full implications of brexit when they voted in 2016 and I met a lot of people who voted leave who had now changed their minds.
If we absolutely must leave, let's have a decent plan..... Even Baldrick had a plan!
You sound as though your self confidence and confidence in your fellow man is non existent.
I will be in London on the 29th inst; to support 'Leave means Leave' and to ask for the revocation of the 1972 treaty of accession act.
"NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL".......NO DEAL NO PROBLEM!
I have no intention of standing idle whilst the financial sector globalist's corral GB into a grouping which it will always be subservient to without the possibility ever to leave.
The EU is run as a Dictatorship which cannot be challenged, the only way to escape the clutches of the EU is through the NO DEAL exit route.
My children and grandchildren deserve a GB, as my Parents made for me, they didn't survive to experience Thatcherism, Majorism, and Blairism etc; My father-in-law did and having served in the 8th Army in North Africa WW2 I recall his words, 'we fought two world wars to end all wars and yet we allow Europe to sneak up and collar us. I am not a Socialist although I may entreat my Grand Children to become so. Each to their own!!
I am amazed that you posted what you thought which was brave, especially seeing the tone of many of the responses.
Thank you for standing up for what you believe in, in a peaceful and open way, and your attempts to inform those who seem willfully unwilling to learn about things outside their ken.
I have worked in factories and yet also in and with those in Parliament and am no way a fat cat, but worked to the best of my abilities to improve the lives of people that I would never meet personally and may not have even been born yet, like many others there. I'm in turns sad at what I am seeing, and reading the extremist language being bandied about here, but then renewed with hope reading your considered and level posts.
Do we really have to have this debate on here? It always ends up a slanging match. There are so many lies told by so many people and they believe it’s the truth.
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