DNA DSBs: I'm attempting to nail down... - Fight Prostate Ca...

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DNA DSBs

PCaWarrior profile image
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I'm attempting to nail down something therapeutic. From the data I think we might be able to occasionally induce lots of DNA DSBs. Most of the time we probably want to limit them.

DNA double-strand breaks (DSBs)

DNA double-strand breaks (DSBs) are one of the most severe types of DNA damage, where both strands of the DNA helix are broken. In the context of prostate cancer (PCa), DSBs play a critical role in both the development of the disease and its treatment.

How DSBs Occur and Their Impact in PCa

• Mechanism of Damage:

DSBs can occur naturally during cell division or be induced by external stressors such as radiation, chemotherapy, or even hormonal fluctuations. In prostate cancer, therapies like Bipolar Androgen Therapy (BAT) have been shown to induce DSBs by exposing cancer cells to cycles of high and low androgen levels, thereby causing DNA stress.

• Genomic Instability:

When DSBs are not correctly repaired, they can lead to genomic instability—a hallmark of cancer. This instability can result in mutations, chromosomal rearrangements, and the activation of oncogenes or inactivation of tumor suppressor genes, all of which contribute to the development and progression of cancer.

• DNA Repair Pathways:

Cells have sophisticated repair mechanisms to fix DSBs, primarily through homologous recombination (HR) and non-homologous end joining (NHEJ). In many prostate cancers, especially those with mutations in DNA repair genes (such as BRCA1/2), these repair pathways may be compromised, making the cancer cells more vulnerable to accumulating DNA damage.

Therapeutic Implications

• Exploiting Repair Defects:

PARP inhibitors like olaparib are designed to exploit defects in DNA repair pathways. In prostate cancers with impaired HR repair, blocking the alternative repair pathway with PARP inhibitors leads to an accumulation of DSBs, ultimately causing cancer cell death through synthetic lethality.

• Combination Strategies:

Treatments that induce DSBs, such as BAT, can be combined with DNA repair inhibitors to overwhelm the cancer cell's ability to fix the damage. This combination approach can be particularly effective in tumors already harboring repair deficiencies, potentially improving patient outcomes.

• Inducing DNA double‐strand breaks (DSBs) is a cornerstone of many therapeutic strategies for prostate cancer (e.g. RT, chemo, BAT). In principle, the goal is to overwhelm the cancer cell’s repair machinery so that the accumulated damage triggers cell death (via apoptosis or other mechanisms). However, there is a delicate balance to maintain:

• Therapeutic Window: The aim is to induce enough DSBs to kill cancer cells—especially those with defective repair pathways (such as in homologous recombination repair deficiencies)—without causing excessive damage to normal tissues.

• Sublethal Damage and Resistance: On the flip side, if DSBs are induced at levels that are sublethal, they might be repaired through error-prone mechanisms, which can generate mutations that contribute to treatment resistance over time.

• Excessive Damage Risks: If too many DSBs are induced systemically, this could lead to severe toxicity in normal cells, increased genomic instability, or even secondary malignancies.

• Thus, while “more is better” for killing tumor cells up to a point, the key is to precisely target cancer cells and avoid excessive collateral damage to healthy tissue. The balance is achieved by careful dosing, timing, and, increasingly, by combining DNA-damaging agents with inhibitors of specific repair pathways to maximize tumor cell kill while sparing normal cells.

Conclusion

DNA Double-Strand Breaks from SBRT vs. High-Testosterone BAT in Prostate Cancer

DSB Yields in Stereotactic Body Radiation Therapy (SBRT)

Stereotactic Body Radiation Therapy (SBRT) delivers large, focused radiation doses (often ~7–10 Gy per session) to the prostate tumor. Ionizing radiation causes DNA damage both directly (through energy deposition in DNA) and indirectly (through free radicals from water radiolysis). Among the spectrum of lesions induced, double-strand breaks (DSBs) are relatively infrequent but critical. Approximately 30–40 DSBs are induced per cell per 1 Gy of X-ray radiation (for comparison, ~1000 single-strand breaks occur per Gy). Thus, a single high-dose SBRT fraction (e.g. ~8 Gy) can produce on the order of ~300 double-strand breaks per cell (estimated by 8 Gy × ~40 DSBs/Gy ≈ 320). These radiation-induced DSBs are distributed throughout the genome and trigger DNA damage response pathways; if unrepaired, this level of damage is lethal to cancer cells. (By contrast, lower-dose conventional radiotherapy fractions (~2 Gy) would induce on the order of 60–80 DSBs per cell.)

DSBs from High-Testosterone Bipolar Androgen Therapy (BAT)

Bipolar Androgen Therapy (BAT) involves cycling between low and high systemic androgen levels to stress prostate cancer cells. In BAT, testosterone is raised to supraphysiological concentrations (often targeting ~1500 ng/dL, roughly 5–10× the normal physiologic testosterone level) for a transient “pulse” before dropping back to castrate levels. At these high androgen levels, prostate cancer cells experience DNA damage through indirect, biologically mediated mechanisms rather than direct physical breaks. Key mechanisms by which a high testosterone pulse can induce DSBs include:

• AR–Topoisomerase IIβ complex formation: Ligand-activated androgen receptor (AR) can recruit topoisomerase IIβ (TOP2B) to AR-regulated gene loci, causing TOP2B-mediated DNA double-strand breaks at those sites. This can relieve transcriptional stress at AR target genes but also creates actual DSBs in the DNA.

• Oxidative stress: Supraphysiologic androgen stimulates metabolic activity and reactive oxygen species (ROS) production, leading to oxidative DNA damage. Elevated ROS can convert what would be single-strand lesions into frank double-strand breaks if the oxidative damage occurs on both DNA strands in close proximity.

• Replication stress: A high androgen surge can drive previously growth-arrested prostate cancer cells back into the cell cycle. Rapid AR-driven cell cycle entry may cause replication stress (e.g. collisions between replication forks and transcription or depletion of replication resources), which in turn can result in DSBs when replication forks collapse. However, importantly, studies have shown that androgen-induced DSBs can occur even in non-dividing cells, indicating that AR signaling can generate DNA breaks independent of DNA replication. (In other words, replication stress can amplify damage, but AR’s direct effects can cause DSBs without cell division.)

• DNA repair suppression: High-dose androgen signaling also downregulates certain DNA repair pathways. Notably, a supraphysiological androgen pulse was found to suppress expression of key repair genes like BRCA2 (a homologous recombination repair factor) by about 4-fold. This means that in the presence of high testosterone, any DNA breaks that occur may persist longer due to impaired repair, compounding their impact. The reduced repair capacity (e.g. limited BRCA2/Rad51 function) contributes to BAT’s efficacy by promoting cell-cycle arrest (senescence) and apoptosis in cancer cells when DNA damage accumulates.

DSB Induction at ~1500 ng/dL Testosterone Pulses

Under a BAT high-testosterone pulse (~1500 ng/dL, ≈50 nM), prostate cancer cells with active AR signaling exhibit measurable DSB formation (though fewer than with radiation). Experimental studies using AR-positive prostate cancer cell lines have demonstrated that supraphysiological androgen levels generate multiple DSB markers (γH2AX foci) per cell. For instance, one study observed about 16 DSB foci per cell after exposure to a moderate high-androgen dose (1 nM R1881, a potent synthetic androgen) in AR-overexpressing LNCaP cells, whereas only ~2 foci per cell were seen in cells with normal AR expression at that dose. At higher androgen concentrations, the number of DSB foci increased further – into the dozens per cell – especially in the AR-overexpressing cells. Chatterjee et al. reported a clear dose-dependent effect: the extent of DNA damage from supraphysiologic androgens rose with increasing ligand concentration and with higher AR levels in the cells. Based on these findings, a testosterone pulse around 1500 ng/dL is estimated to induce on the order of ~10–20 DSBs per cell in AR-positive prostate cancer cells (the lower end for typical AR levels, and the upper end in tumors with AR overexpression or DNA-repair deficiencies). This is an order of magnitude fewer breaks than caused by an 8 Gy radiation dose, but still a significant DNA insult delivered biologically. Moreover, because high-androgen exposure simultaneously impairs DNA repair (as noted above), even a few persistent DSBs can be enough to push cancer cells into growth arrest or death, which is the therapeutic intent of BAT.

Extrapolated DSBs at ~3000 ng/dL (Doubling the Androgen Pulse)

Direct experimental data on DNA damage at extremely high testosterone levels (e.g. 3000 ng/dL) are limited, but we can extrapolate from known trends. Doubling the testosterone concentration from ~1500 to ~3000 ng/dL (50 to 100 nM) would not be expected to double the number of DSBs linearly, because AR signaling will be approaching saturation at such high ligand levels. Once most AR molecules are occupied and AR-driven transcriptional programs maximized, further increases in hormone yield diminishing returns in additional DNA damage. If a ~1500 ng/dL pulse produces on the order of 10–20 DSBs per cell, a 3000 ng/dL pulse might increase that to roughly 20–30 DSBs per cell (a modest rise rather than a two-fold jump). In other words, extremely high testosterone could cause a few dozen double-strand breaks in a cell at most. This extrapolated estimate is consistent with the dose-dependent but plateauing response observed in AR-mediated DNA damage – higher androgen doses do induce more breaks, but the effect tends to level off as AR pathways become fully engaged. Thus, pushing testosterone from 1500 to 3000 ng/dL is likely to add some additional DNA breaks (and further stress the cancer cells), but not infinitely more; the cellular DNA damage response will still be on the same order of magnitude (tens of DSBs) under even extreme androgen levels.

SBRT vs. BAT: Magnitude and Nature of DSBs Compared

• SBRT (Radiation-Induced DSBs):

Ionizing radiation inflicts widespread DNA damage. Roughly ~40 DSBs per cell per 1 Gy of radiation are induced. A single SBRT fraction (~7–10 Gy) can therefore create on the order of a few hundred DSBs per cell (e.g. ~300+ DSBs for an 8 Gy dose) in the tumor. These breaks occur genome-wide and directly shatter DNA structure, prompting extensive repair or leading to cell death if the damage is irreparable.

• BAT High-Testosterone Pulses (Androgen-Induced DSBs):

Supraphysiological testosterone pulses (e.g. ~1500 ng/dL in BAT) induce far fewer DSBs – on the order of tens of breaks per cell (approximately 10–20 DSBs in responsive prostate cancer cells) – via indirect, AR-driven processes. The DNA damage is focused at AR binding sites (where AR-associated TOP2B nicks the DNA during transcription) and accompanied by oxidative and replication stress effects rather than random whole-genome breaks. AR-overexpressing or DNA-repair-deficient cells may incur the higher end of damage in this range.

• Doubling the Androgen Pulse (~3000 ng/dL):

Pushing testosterone to extreme levels (around 3000 ng/dL) is predicted to yield a moderately higher DSB count (perhaps ~20–30+ DSBs per cell), but not a dramatic multiplication of breaks, due to saturating AR signaling dynamics. The incremental increase in DSBs with additional androgen is limited once AR pathways are maximally activated. In practical terms, even a very high BAT pulse would induce on the same order of magnitude of DNA breaks (dozens per cell, not hundreds).

It’s important to note that the biological context of these DSBs differs between SBRT and BAT. SBRT’s radiation produces a massive burst of random DNA breaks, overwhelming the cell and often killing it outright if damage is not repaired. BAT’s high-androgen strategy produces fewer breaks, but those breaks are strategically inflicted at transcriptionally active sites and coupled with suppressed repair capacity. As a result, a BAT-induced DSB, though fewer in number, may persist unrepaired and trigger tumor cell senescence or apoptosis (especially in cells already compromised by AR overexpression or defective DNA repair). In clinical practice, these approaches can even be complementary – for example, there is rationale for combining BAT with radiation or DNA repair inhibitors to exploit the androgen-induced DNA damage and repair downregulation for greater therapeutic effect. Overall, a high-dose SBRT session induces an order of magnitude more DSBs per cell than a high-testosterone BAT pulse, but both create lethal DNA stress on cancer cells through very different mechanisms. Each leverages DNA double-strand breaks – either by brute force (radiation) or by subverting the cell’s own signaling (androgen/AR) – to combat prostate tumor cells.

________________________________________

References

1. ClinicalOncologyOnline.net – "DSB induction per Gy in X-ray radiation." clinicaloncologyonline.net/...

2. MDPI.COM – Data on androgen-induced DNA damage and AR–TOP2B interactions. mdpi.com/1422-0067/22/9/4485

3. PMC.NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV – Study on suppression of BRCA2 expression by high-dose androgen. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

4. JCI.ORG – Experimental study measuring γH2AX foci in prostate cancer cells exposed to synthetic androgen. jci.org/articles/view/38984

5. DSBs are induced by high T: Supraphysiological androgens suppress prostate cancer growth through androgen receptor–mediated DNA damage – PMC ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

6. DSBs and their importance explained: Frontiers | Harnessing DNA Double-Strand Break Repair for Cancer Treatment frontiersin.org/articles/10...

7. Bioflavonoids cause DNA double-strand breaks and chromosomal translocations through topoisomerase II-dependent and -independent mechanisms – PMC ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

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Ichthus316 profile image
Ichthus316

Another excellent post! This one raises a few questions:Regarding level of evidence: Are DSBs induced by BAT proven or still unproven (cells studies only)?

Why do DSBs occur only or primarily within the first 24-48 hrs of initiating SPT?

My peak T w/ a 50mg dose is approximately 2700 ng/dL. In view of the diminishing returns above 1500, should dosing be reduced to 40 mg or less, especially after the first couple of days of the hiT cycle?

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toIchthus316

Thanks. Remind me, are you using propionate or cypionate? (my memory isn't what it used to be)

As per DNA DSBs the evidence is perhaps 99% that they are induced by high androgens. I suppose we could be incorrect and perhaps incorrect about the actions of ARSIs. :)

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toIchthus316

NMD. I recall you are using propionate. Every day or EOD?

Ichthus316 profile image
Ichthus316

EOD

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toIchthus316

Every other day.

Ichthus316 profile image
Ichthus316 in reply toPCaWarrior

Yes, Tp injections, EOD

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior

Ignore everything except the dotted green. That's your serum T. Have you ever had your SHBG measured? Critically important. Mine is low. Low is good but it also means I don't have to inject as much Tp as most guys. The average is about twice what mine is. So I might need less T than others, Half since it is probably free T that matters and not total T. I'm going to check on that and correct this or confirm.

You are right in your dosing. You could drop to 40 mg EOD. But until you have your SHBG I recommend staying with 50 mg for your first shot.

Ichthus316 profile image
Ichthus316 in reply toPCaWarrior

I had my SHBG measured for the only time about a year ago at the beginning of BAT. Here are the results:

3-26-24 BT results, drawn 7 hrs after the last of 8 Tp injections:

Total Testosterone: 2981 ng/dL

Albumin: 4.3 g/dL

SHGB: 40 nmol/L

Free Testosterone: 906.47 pg/ml (calculated)

Free Testosterone Percentage: 3.04 %

Bioavailable Testosterone: 2123.86 ng/dL (calculated)

I concluded from these calculations (hopefully the online T calculator did them correctly) that my free T on BAT is therapeutic, at least at peak T. If the half-life of Tp is 20 hours, then after 48 hours total T should be less than 600 and free T a little over 100. Are those values still therapeutic? Or do the minimum T numbers just before the next injection even matter? I suspect it would be bad to let them drop below normal during the hiT phase, though.

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toIchthus316

The calculator did it correctly. I don't know if it would save you anything but there are free calculators like this one: issam.ch/freetesto.htm

I have my SHBG, CMP (hence Albumin) and tT tested. Plug into a calculator. That's all my lab does anyway. So I get the same info and save a few bucks. I plugged your numbers into the calculator and free T = 90.6 ng/dl or 3.04%.

Supraphysiological levels are often defined as total testosterone exceeding 1500-2000 ng/dl. The therapeutic effect is primarily associated with the free and bioavailable fractions. Using average values for a 65 year old man (approximately 50 nmol/l SHBG and 4.7 g/dl albumin), free testosterone should be above 35 ng/dl, and bioavailable testosterone should exceed 900 ng/dl. These targets are generally achievable unless SHBG levels are unusually high, which can be verified with a blood test. For context, the typical serum testosterone level is around 17 nM (500 ng/dl) and DHT is about 1 nM (30 ng/dl), with DHT being roughly five times more potent in AR activation.

You have to convert and your free T is 90 ng/dl. More than enough at the peak. Not SPA at the first trough but I don't think that's an issue and could be a good thing. After a few days you cumulate and the free T is fine all the time. I used a half-life of 1.4 days. I just averaged the range (0.8-1.4). 1.4 usually gets a decay quite close to the lab measurements. I just took a couple of T measurements and albumin and SHBG 1-2 weeks ago and my calculated T is off 13% and 10% for the two points. That's pretty close since Tp drops so fast. It's going to be difficult to exactly time the blood draw. If my T is within 50% of what I want, I can't say that is good or bad. In the trials they do not adjust for SHBG or albumin. Those can range at least 4x (mine used to be in the 90s and has dropped down to 25 now and was 18 two years ago). I'll ask Denmeade if they have the SHBG data. Maybe there is a correlation with how people respond? They've probably already thought of that though.

Anyway, from what you have given me, I recommend decreasing all your injections to 40 mg EOD. But if you're in good health other than cancer, I see no issue with keeping them higher. I frequently take my free T much higher than what you measured. More DNA DSBs continue to be made as free T goes up. It levels off as the ARs are saturated. Thing is that SBRT induces an order of magnitude more DNA DSBs than SPA does. So... we should be safe.

Tp injections per day. BAT
Ichthus316 profile image
Ichthus316 in reply toPCaWarrior

Good info, thanks. Since it's been almost a year since my last SHBG test, I decided to add another to my standing PSA order, which is tomorrow. Then I'll recalculate free and bioavailable T, incorporating my lower albumin levels from more recent CMPs. Depending on the results, I may keep the first Tp injection in each new hiT cycle at 50-55 mg and reduce all others to 40. Thanks again!

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toIchthus316

Sure. It's a very complicated beast. Every time I think I'm close it scurries away.

SHBG is important as is free T. What is even more important is DHT. Most DHT is made from free T and free T falls out from total T, SHBG, and albumin. But it's different in the prostate and cancer cells. Long story short DHT in the PCa cells roughly equates to our serum DHT. Makes it easier. But the actual amount varies by cell line and mutations and environment. In general it is lower in CRPC cells than in HSPC cells. But that is overcome in large part or sometimes more than overcome by AR upregulation and amplification by the cancer cells.

Lots of junk to dissect. We have one HSPC BAT trial to study and 21 CRPC BAT trials.

I hope the JH AR activity test sheds some light on CRPC. And of course I hope that someday HSPC will be revisited. And last, use propionate instead of cypionate. Should be better but is it? The small amount of data I have says it works better but the data set is tiny and uncontrolled.

I wound up at this time with measuring my total T and using that - and I go with a 2000-3000 ng/dl range - usually.

I know that free T and even better, DHT, gets us closer.

Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_ in reply toPCaWarrior

Just to contribute my latest (Jan 2025) set of numbers :

Total T : 1550 ng/dL (all endogenous)

SHBG : 164.9 nmol/L

Albumin : 4.2 g/dL

Free T (calculated) : 11 ng/dL = 0.707 %

Bioavailable T (calculated) : 251 ng/dL = 16.2 %

E2 (Estradiol) : 25.1 pg/mL

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toJustfor_

There are a lot of causes for high SHGB. Have you talked to your primary physician?

E2 looks good. That's one cause - gone?

T is high. Low T is another cause - gone?

Albumin looks fine.

Hyperthyroidism, liver disease, ? Have you had a thyroid panel? How about a CMP (AST, ALP, ALT)?

Ichthus316 profile image
Ichthus316 in reply toPCaWarrior

Given my stats above, how important is it to get my DHT measured? Never had that done before.

Didn't Denmeade tell you that in theory Tp should be more suitable for BAT due to its shorter half-life than Tc? He might consider a trial with propionate if it were more widely available. I don't like the fact that Tc injections in the trials are 28 days apart. That drops T well below SPT for much of the cycle, right?

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toIchthus316

We've talked about Tp vs. Tc. He can't state outright that Tp is better (no vetted data to back him up). Off the record more than one MO has told me that Tp "should" be better. And yes T is below SPT most of the time. And on a 28 day cycle it never goes to a low ADT state.

Tcyp BAT
Ichthus316 profile image
Ichthus316 in reply toPCaWarrior

IMO, the last few days of that Tcyp chart look problematic for the risk of PCa growth. Do you recommend scheduling a DHT blood test?

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toIchthus316

Yes. Removes a few variables. I test my DHT occasionally.

I agree about the no-mans land using Tcyp. Appears to work for lots of CRPC men. That's great. I've been on Tp BAT for 4 years. Mateo longer (sometimes uses cyp but switches to prop and lets it clear and uses ARSIs). Patrick even longer - I think he's been at it for almost 2 decades. He uses cyp but lets it clear for a few months. Average Tcyp standard user gets 9 months. Of course they are CRPC so not a fair comparison.

Ichthus316 profile image
Ichthus316 in reply toPCaWarrior

I would certainly use cypionate if that were the only T available. Thanks, my brother, for the many long hours you put into research to help us all. Praying we get better.

PCaWarrior profile image
PCaWarrior in reply toIchthus316

I'd use cyp also. Pair it with an ARSI and I think we could make it work. Much rather use prop though. And gels are great too. Even shorter half life than prop. And they are legal with an Rx and easier to get.

Praying for us all.

Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_

My prime aberration, genetically confirmed, is familial hypercholisterolaemia. Cholesterol is the precursor of Testosterone, hence, I have the latter in abundance. SHBC bonds to T to bring in some balance. E2 used to be over the roof after I started Bicalutamide but, lately, Tamoxifen aiding, got within normal range. Albumin follows a declining trend. Used to be 4.5-4.7. Thyroid panel has been ok.

AST : 16 iu/L, ALT : 11 iu/L, milk Thistle is my friend.

ALP : 73 iu/L

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