We've just had the news that our 3rd transfer a (none pgta tested) 4AA embryo hasn't worked and feeling a little lost. We're NHS patients and have asked if it's possible to do any further testing on me . Were waiting to hear back if that's something they're willing to do.
Our Dr said that all my previous investigations have been normal and its more of a numbers game to get the right embryo to stick. Some just don't implant and some do.
How many embryos failing to implant is too many? When's the cut off where they think too many embryos have failed before they do further investigations?
I've also asked for a double embryo transfer which they're are considering but worried if there is something more going on we don't know about will it be futile to put two back?
We're very lucky and have 8 more frozen embryos but we don't want to keep repeating the same steps and expecting a different result.
Is 3 failed transfers pretty normal? Or should alarm bells start ringing?
I have PCOS but my hycosy came back clear and all my blood tests show nothing ontoward, my lining is always a normal thickness for transfer too.
Have we just been unlucky with these transfers or is it likely to be more than that?
Our clinic don't seem worried and have told us not to worry too much about it but I in particular can't help but feel something else is going on with me.
Has anybody experienced anything similar? Or got any positive stories after a few failed transfers?
Thanks so much in advance. xxxx
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AshleyJB
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I'm so sorry it didn't work for you this time. For me personally, ERA and immune protocol was the game changer. Used the results from these tests for my 5th transfer (a double) and now have my twins. ERA showed I needed to transfer 24 hours earlier than the usual.
Not everyone agrees these tests are beneficial, but I feel they were in my case. So could perhaps be worth an ask at least and could also have EMMA and ALICE test the same time as ERA.
Thankyou so much for the reply. I'll definitely enquire about these tests. So glad you got your twins! It gives me hope! My FETs are always medicated so not sure if that makes any difference with transfer timing but I'll certainly ask! xxx
hello. I’m so sorry the transfer failed, sending you a hug.
I’ve recently been diagnosed with PCOS and was worried whether it would cause implantation or miscarriage issues. I’ve heard that many women are put on metformin and sometimes steroids to help manage inflammation and other issues caused by PCOS - not sure exactly how or if they work to help implantation but it may be worth asking your Dr about if you’re not already on these meds!
It might be worth PGT-A testing further retrievals. I expect about half might not be normal at your age and you may well just have had an unlucky few abnormal ones. Testing may help you work out where the issue lies. Best of luck ! X
I'd be careful PGT-A testing. I was told by my doc that they only take a small sample so it's not necessarily reflective of the whole embryo (i.e ig might only have a few abnormal cells but the rest of it is normal). Also if your embryo has ANY abnormal cells they legally have to destroy it! I know @AshleyJB has 8 frosties in the freezer but testing might risk losing some and for no good reason! That embryo still might have worked despite having a few abnormal cells. It's definitely put me off.
Hmm. I'd heard this too, our consultant doesn't like testing and has said to not even set much store by visually grading embryos either, I trust them and have done amazingly for us so far so probably won't be testing embryos with these that we have now. Thanks so much for the advise xxx
Oh good i'm glad you've heard the same thing. You could try the dEFT test done by Professor Brosens in Coventry. I did it to try to find answers for my recurrent losses but everything came back fine. I would recommend though as it tests the receptivity of the womb lining as well as NK cells - it's done via a biopsy. But yeah good to know if your lining is perhaps more prone to breaking down which will lead to the embryo not being able to implant (or if you have high or low nk cells which could be affecting it). I'm also going through NHS funding and was able to just go off and do it without it affecting our funding. The NHS won't do these tests and you do have to pay but worth it to just tick it off the list of things that could be holding you back. Also prof Brosens is amazing, he's really honest about other tests, I had a few others I was considering but he told me not too as it would be a waste of money. I completely trust his judgement as he's an expert in the field xxx
That’s interesting to hear different advice on PGT-A! Interestingly my Dr was pro as he said it took success rates from about 40 up to 60%. At my clinic embryos are only destroyed if all cells come back abndormal and the ones with mixed results (mosaics) can be transferred as a last restort. Interesting how it varies clinic to clinic and I totally get why you’d want to avoid it based on rightly following what your Dr thinks is best x
Thanks so much for getting back to me. I didn't realise PCOS could cause implantation issues 😳 I thought the big problem was getting the eggs out but that'll be something I ask about and yeah maybe my age as I'll be 37 after Christmas.I've been on metformin for over a year now so will ask about the steroids too. Thankyou xxx
I agree with the comments from PinkPanther1234 the ERA, ALICE and EMMA tests helped to identify a couple of things that needed to be twist. At the moment I am on vaginal probiotics due to the result of one of the tests.
hi love, I’m sorry to hear your 3rd transfer failed. I had 2 failed ones and 3rd one was successful, I did ERA test, NK cells and Plasma Cells after second failed, all came back ok. The only thing I changed was I switched to a native cycle on the ERA and transfer. My cycles are naturally longer (31 days) and I also felt awful on the oestrogen. My clinic suggested the native cycle for me and it worked. I only took progesterone 5 days before and after the transfer. Of course everyone is different. Sending lots of love and keeping everything crossed for you 🤞🏻💗
Thank-you. I've thought about doing a natural FET but I'm not sure it's an option with PCOS. It's definitely something I'll ask about though. Thanks so much xxxx
Hi there I'm sorry your first three FETs didn't work. It's heartbreaking. I also have PCOS and my first two FETs resulted in pregnancy and then miscarriage. Third cycle was a natural modified cycle using letrozole which is supposed to be helpful for women with PCOS but for me I had no implantation. We are switching back to HRT cycle next time on advice of our clinic. You could do an ERA test as suggested by others. I also had full thrombotic screening done via blood tests. I have an underactive thyroid so I tested positive for high thyroid antibodies. These can cause issues. You can have high thyroid antibodies and no thyroid issues though strangely from what I understand. Women with PCOS often have thyroid issues so have you had your thyroid function tested by your GP? I also tested positive for PAI-1 so will need clexane injections next time I have an embryo transfer and then aspirin if we get to the stage of a heartbeat detected. There is an association between PAI-1 and PCOS from what I read but my fertility doctor said there's weak data around it. I've also read a lot about anti inflammation diets being beneficial for us ladies with PCOS. Good luck - hope you get your miracle baby xx
Thankyou so much for the advice, I'll definitely be asking these questions. I'm so sorry to hear about your misscarriages, I know how awful that feels. I have been wondering if a modified natural FET might work better for us so will be bringing all of these suggestions up.
Sorry to hear about your 3rd failed attempt. I have PCOS and longer than normal cycles 35-50 days. My clinic put me on HRT FET, I took prostrap on day 2, scan on 10, oestrogen for 10 days, scan to check lining and transfer the 5-10 days later depending on slots, progesterone started five days before transfer and continued until the test day. First cycle didn’t take, 2nd cycle they didn’t change anything and I tested positive but had and early loss at 6 weeks. I’m on my 3rd FET transfer the time was also prescribed Lubion injections along with the progesterone and continuing to first scan and possibly to 12 weeks. I’m currently pregnant and just over six weeks, waiting for viability scan. This time I’ve had no bleeding hoping it has worked and all goes well.
From what I know PCOS doesn’t impact implantation. I’m a single parent by choice, I had my son 5 years ago in a fresh cycle and my FET are from that round. It’s was so much harder as I’m 43 now, a stone heavier and just didn’t think it would be so hard. My consultant said after the first two fails it wasn’t worth paying for additional testing yet given I have had a successful birth and 5 out of 8 Frosties were 4AA/4AB’s. However if this round didn’t work I could look at embryo testing but would £3-4k to do, so really hoping this round is successful.
It’s such a toll emotionally, physically and mentally.
Thanks so much for your advice. I'll definitely be asking these questions. I've been doing Progynova 3x perday then lubion and cyclogest 5 days before transfer then every day afterwards until either a negative test or 12 weeks pregnant they said. I have a phone call with the clinic tomorrow so will hopefully have more answers and can ask these questions then.
Hi. Really sorry to hear that. Heard my 2nd FET failed yesterday. We have now used all our funding up with NHS as I am 40. They have done a hysteroscopy and it was all clear, I do have issues with thin lining, but the FETs only ever went ahead when it was over 8mm.
It's heart breaking and I'm questioning at what point I should give up. We are now researching private, but putting actual process on hold until next year. My mental health just can't take it at the mo.
Hi Sadie. I'm so very sorry to hear that. I hope you have lots of support around you and if you ever need someone to talk to that's also In the IVF trenches you can always message me directly.
I also found that the mental side of IVF and infertility is by far the worst part of the whole process.
Sending you lots of love and luck with whatever you decide to do moving forwards xxx
I had my first fresh transfer 2 weeks ago and was devastated to get my period after a week. Everything had looked good up until that point so it was awful and confusing. I ended up taking last week off work sick as it was just too much to cope with. We only have one more frozen embryo left and I’m 41 so feel so much pressure because of time and also we only got one NHS funded cycle. I totally get what you mean about the mental health impact, and I too am wondering just how much of this we can go through. It sounds like a break is just what you need, take care xx
I think it is a game of numbers..you need to go on having a transfer until you get to the golden embryo that sticks to you . It's not about a grade cause embryo grades can change after thawing some expand some do not, and unfortunately some collapse.
I had 3 unsuccessful transfer with best grade 5AA and finally 4th transfer with avrage grade worked .Honestly its like a gamble .what helped me staying sane and healthy ;I told myself i have this much embryos and im going to try casually one after the other one until hopefully it works even pple without firtility issue they try few months sometimes a year and test each month its not gonna work necessary after first try for them .
So think of that even if it was natural your test might came out negative and u had to wait until your next ovulation window to try again.
My clinic are telling me it’s a numbers game too. I’m about to have transfer 4 after 3 failed so it’s lovely to hear your news and has made me feel more positive!! X
I am in the same position as you. 3 failed transfers, 1 fresh 2 frozen.
My clinic are saying all standard tests normal and it’s just a numbers game. I asked about double transfer (refused so far) and they have said they don’t like to do double on a fresh cycle, but may consider it if this (4th transfer, 2nd fresh) doesn’t work. I just feel if like they say there’s no reason it won’t work why not put 2 in and double the chance?!
I have asked about additional tests I’ve read about like NK cells and immunology but they said at this stage they aren’t recommending as they are red on the HEFA scale.
I feel lucky they are saying no reason it won’t work, frustrated no reason it’s not.
Here’s my list of stuff I am now trying that they said is ok if I want to off my own back - lots are probably “old wives tales” but I’ll try anything!
Pineapple core, Brazil nuts, beetroot, 75mg aspirin, probiotics, McDonalds fries (after transfer), warm feet (which I hate!), accupuncture. Also clothing with pineapple on, Winnie the Pooh and his hunnie pot, yellow clothing!
I also read about manifestation and the power of the universe responding to positive thoughts!
I have unexplained recurrent implantation failure. After 5 failed blastocyst transfers my clinic suggested PGTA testing the next round as failure to implant is often due to the embryos. Statistically 95% of women will achieve implantation after 3 euploid embryo transfers so this will help figure out whether the problem is with the embryos or the womb. Most investigations have very little evidence and now the ERA has been shown not to improve chances. If you wanted to look at the evidence ESHRE have good guidelines for recurrent implantation failure which are free to access on the internet. Fingers crossed for you, it's such a horrible place to be xxx
Thankyou so much for the advice, I will be looking that up on line. It is such a horrible place to be, struggling a bit at the moment with it all. We just have to keep pushing forward.
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