Dean Ornish rebuttal to low-carb versus high-carb diet

I am not medically qualified to comment on any scientific study. Each diet has its supporters and detractors. Choose whatever diet suits your body. I am presenting this rebuttal to a popular and much-quoted defense of high-fat, low-carb diet only as yet another source of information, that's all. I am not criticizing any one approach or recommending anything either.

38 Replies

  • This kind of evangelism was precisely what I feared and which prompted my rather longish explanation for why I am posting this.

  • dont fear anything or anybody.

    please write on.

    the evangelism you mentioned is the apt word.

    good luck

  • the term evangelism means good news[about , or of christ]

    it can be mis understood as converting to christianity.

    see the dictionary meaning.





    (in Protestant churches) the practice of spreading the Christian gospel RC Church term evangelization, evangelisation


    ardent or missionary zeal for a cause


    it is this second meaning that mr krishnan meant.

    it is very apt and is universally used.

    you have a missionary zeal for the cause of LCHF.

    where as scientific pursuit is some how different.

    good luck

  • i tested myself. lchf works very well for diabetic. as per my experience saturated fat is the best. i take ghee, butter whole egg, peanut, almond, curd etc. it is good to maintain normal lipid profile. i even take ice-cream, pedha, kalakand. when i take these sweets i restrict carbohydrates. i am diabetic and maintaining my bs without medicine

  • i am not interested in any type of argument. i am interested only in real facts

  • Same with me. I too am diabetic but with lchf diet maintaining normal sugar level totally without drugs. That said, anyone who has not practiced lchf need not comment on its ill effects

  • dear shurya, would appreciate you write to me what constitutes your breakfast, and 2 meals i.e. what do you take as part of LCHF diet that helps you maintain BS levels - just my curiosity, maybe, many could align and synch. their meals in-take thru your inputs; God bless us all with good health!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • I thank you Axeffect for your modesty and politeness for answering. Indiacratus and Pataliputra are the people who are unnecessary arguing .It is better to judge by the persons concerned. About eighty percent people in this forum are befitted by LCHF. We are preaching LCHF.It is others to accept it or not. No compulsion please. This forum is not for backbiting and criticising. Thanks.

  • ...and indiacratus is introducing religion - Christianity into this while diabetes is religion free!!!

  • Thanks

  • I thank you Axeffect for your modesty and politeness for answering. Indiacratus and Pataliputra are the people who are unnecessary arguing .It is better to judge by the persons concerned. About eighty percent people in this forum are befitted by LCHF. We are preaching LCHF.It is others to accept it or not. No compulsion please. This forum is not for backbiting and criticising. Thanks.

  • I thank you Axeffect for your modesty and politeness for answering. Indiacratus and Pataliputra are the people who are unnecessary arguing .It is better to judge by the persons concerned. About eighty percent people in this forum are befitted by LCHF. We are preaching LCHF.It is others to accept it or not. No compulsion please. This forum is not for backbiting and criticising. Thanks.

  • Thanks for for your feelings.I feel ,let us try best to propagate the awareness of LCHF without caring for indiacratus or any body. Keep trying. Thanks you once again.

  • Aah! so indiacrtaus and patliputra are the two. Now I know why patliputra latched on to me right on the first day and unnecessarily and then kept on trolling. These two will be on permanent ignore list. Any more?

  • AxEffect ur right

  • sonu,

    a trial is to be done by a scientist or group of scientists.

    this is generally called a study.

    there will be thousands of studies.

    you see for instance, the dcct trial was done on 1441 people and spanned over above 10 years.

    then a large body like the aiims or ida or american diabetes association recomends to ordinary people .

    it is these recomendations we are supposed to try or experiment.

    nobody on earth[responsible bodies likeWHO] recomended high fat for diabetes]. it has been recomended for those who failed weight reduction by other means.

    otherwise, if each and everyone begins his own theories we will fall into pitfalls as below.

    "my grandfather was smoking like a chimney.

    he crosed age 100.he had no lung cancer or any cancer. so my son,

    you can also smoke. it is a pleassure."

    but the scientific man says --

    if lung cancer in the random population is only one out of ten thousand . but among smokers it is 8 out of ten thousand. so cancer ,smokers have a better chance to get.. but some people may get it with out smoking also.[ i dont remember the figures exactly- the one and 8 out of ten thousand -all are examples only.]

    so the scientist concludes by statistical reasoning.

    some people have an inherent tendency for cancer.

    this is genetic tendency only--but nicotin can trigger it.

    otherwise how the 8 out of ten thousand can be explained..

    so about saturated fats the nutritionists recomend only 7 percent of your total was 10 earlier.

    they have reduced the total saturated fats you can take recently.to7%. as i explained in the case of smoking this is what is called epidemiological conclusion.

    in other words if people taking large amounts of saturated fats get more chance of heart disease , -a cause effect proof is unnecessary.these figures 7 and 10 are exact ,not indiacratus fiction-example.

    long typing. you once taught me a lesson.

    i am now violating the same thing.arguing with anyone.

    you are not seen these is life?

    good luck

    so that is it.

    what works for you may not be the right thing for you.

    nobody in this forum answered me ,the following.

    which is better?

    1]diabetes managed with medicine.

    2] diabetes managed with high fat consumption.

    that is why i gave an article on the perfections of modern is difficult to swallow for people who blindly think medicine is bad if it can be avoided by any change whatsoever in diet. what is there in a diet some one asked me some time back?

  • dear ax,

    recently i quoted :

    in a concensus agreement,

    a committee appointed by european union and american diabetes association---

    advised to start insulin immediately if a person's a1c is above 7[7.5?]

    (if a person is on metformin alone for more than 3 months).

    i had then expressed the opinion:

    why they did not advise to switch to lchf.

    eoropean union and ada means almost all the world as far as the bulk of scientific reaserch is concerned. the whole world does not care for lchf

    i asked some time back a group of biochemistry reasearch students:

    why do u go after diabetes and herbs?

    ultimately what will you prove?

    amla or........contains some substance like metformin or gliburide.

    misguided research?

    they unanimously answered

    there are no instruments in our labs for that type of research you suggest.

    i quit.

    as a matter of fact when i was a young man ,

    i was opposed to fundamental research itself in india--- see what the japanese ,singapore, korea honkong etc--they went for applications and became the masters of the world market.

    and about


    i am not going into your analytical acusations of will be too much of work for me.correption charges are to be proved in a court.

    you did not answer my question which is better.

    diabetes and medicines

    or diabetes and drastic changes in diet leading to an unbalanced food.

    nobody in this forum [ofcourse including me] is competent to answer.but the world opinion is on my side.i will advocate the opinions of the world of scientists.

    they advice balanced and calorie limited food.

    calorie limited food limits all macronutrients.

    why should i change my opinion when all theoretical reason and practically the entire world agrees with me--except for some 4 or five people in our forum [4 or five who has elementary knowledge of the patho physiology of diabetes.]others are just LCHF ki jay!!and no doubt i am opposed to such blind followers.there are enough ordinary and learned people in this forum who support my views.

    my task is clear and simple.

    in europe -the west,when somebody is diagnosed as diabetic ,

    they give what is called diabetes education to patients.they attend a diabetes education program.

    import this to indian citizens.full stop

    good luck


  • Quote "nobody in this forum answered me ,the following.

    which is better?"

    Why should someone answer your questions when you don't answer simple questions.

  • mr.samarth,

    no, no . you have not understood what i meant.

    when there are two paths in front of us, which shoiuld we follow?

    the better one. no one will disagree to this.

    so lchf or the medical path .which is better is the main question.

    it is the comparison between the two i mean.

    people just blindly think a non medical path is

    this happens because of their poor understanding of modern medicine.that is why i wrote an article on the perfections of modern medicine.


    humans do not require a chemical say X-

    for cell wall synthesis.

    a microb requires it. its biochemistry is like that.

    do not give that chemical X for the attacking bacterium , it dies.

    perfect medicine, repeat perfect.[in practice slight chage ,a techinique based on molecular mimicry is used].

    there are innumerable examples like this.

    where as in classical medicine we just swallow a herb say-'bala' for arthritis.[ the bala of balaswagandhadi]

    some cure is obtained -no doubt.

    but we do not know anything about its effect or side effects-long term ,short term nothing is known

    except the theoretical arguments like

    the panchabhootas, the pairwise combinations- thridoshas , the 7 states and so on.the ancients new only so much. so far so good.

    hope i have explained you drastically different,the modern medicine reaches the perfection point.

    for- there is a political air in your response.

    for that no comments.

    when i explained that both food and medicine can be reduced by reducing weight. i also gave an was not my opinion or observation that

    calories basal = 900 +10w and 700 +7w

    tdi insulin= total daily insuli for a patient = 0.55into w...

    in all thes w means reducing weight is of paramount importance-- basal food and basal insulin --this is only part of the explanation.

    my classical attitude to lchf!!

    most of the advantages of lchf can be obtained by reducing weight.

    do it .you will find it wonderful.

    kindly ref my quote webmd.

    you skiped answering me.

    advocate weight reduction to the minimum recomended.

    good luck

  • my friend.

    wheat, rice are the two of the most abused grains by the GM industry. the food, medical, all (WHO, ADA, whichever organization , USFDA, USDA) industry are hand in glove.

    they changed the DNA of the above somewhere in 1955 to sell their chemicals (weapons left from world war II) factory produce.

    since then it's been downward for all fat and upward for carbs.

  • the above is for indiacratus

  • In my case low fat high carb killed me literally and low carb high fat saved me. I don't know any science. but it fully worked on me.

  • Swidish govt has accepted lchf treatment for diabets

  • do you remember my story ? the rabbit running telling the sky is falling - then all animals began running .

    you check up next time when you go to a university library or large book shop-- as to-

    the brain requires an absolute minimum of 100 grams of carbs -

    in the famous book called harrison,.

    you can straight away go to chapter nutrition and see para carbohydrates.

    it is this book all medicine men in india follows.

    you said 30 grams .

    why 30 grams?

    the body can go with zero grams for many days.

    fat persons can live beyond 40 days.!!great gandhiji went niraahara for many days

    zero carbs!

  • show me the original swedish paper.

    i was in search of it. i will be thankful.

    they only permitted ,not recomended, both high fat and low fat for weight reduction.[ they did not recomend-- after dr . annikas court case they permitted.]

    not for diabetes treatment.

  • How to check food allergy before consuming it.

  • it is not easy job.

    it is expensive.

    one easy way is to remove all food and then add one after other.

    please put this as a question in the main board i will give a better answer.

  • I was diabetic since 2003. I am also hypertensive. I am on Gluformin G2. I read shooter George's experiment with Emmer wheat and also Medfree's about LCHF. I was avoiding sweets, Root vegetables, fat etc. In spite of this My HbA1c was 8.4. Jan 14 I started with Long wheat and also increased the fat. April My HbA1c came down to 6.4. I further cut down on rice and changed the chapatti's to whole wheat Atta chapatti's. with lots of vegetables, meat and fish. Added Ghee to my morning long wheat. My HbA1c is now 5.6 I have now cut down my tablets to half the dosage. Any article written by any body is immaterial since I am happy with the results. My Blood pressure is normal with out medication.

  • I agree about Keys. it's all a game that they say money is there in sick patients , not cured or dead ones.

    I am sure that you are medfree. using Dlife is a bit complicated !

  • noted ! the style and language of posts are very similar. anyways, sorry for the trouble.

  • it is insulin that is the perfect drug.

    only thing is some injection disadvantages.

    glyburide is also perfect drug.

    whiping the pancrease is just some cry. not science

  • Fantastic negation of things !!!!!

  • fantastic and ignorance as you said earlier.thanks anyway, you have saved my time.

    good luck


  • Yes, it is a fact that LCHF is great. Many doctors are saying it and I will be posting videos regularly on it.

    Recently there's a study on more than 26000 subjects which reveals that consuming High Fat Dairy products drastically reduces chances of type diabetes by over 20%. So slowly and steadily everyone is coming to terms with real facts.

    LCHF is one of the best dietary intervention for dealing with diabetes. HCLF diet for diabetics, as recommended by professionals following ADA guidelines, is atrocious.

    LCHF for diabetes is actually no rocket science. It is common sense.

  • Problem with Ornish diet is :

    (1) The huge reliance on genetically modified thyroid debilitating soya and and its products.

    (2) Reliance on one study as against 14 studies in favor of fat.

    (3) Criminally high CARBS as far as diabetic is concerned.

    Some also say he is building a franchise around his plan so commercial interests will always blind him from all the studies which prove his low fat theory as wrong. He will be averse to accepting major trials that go against his one study foundation. Additionally, he failed with Steve Jobs AFAIK. Jobs died at 56 and Ornish's anti cancer diet didn't do any good to him.

  • Sir your observation and point raised are obviously justified. I thank you for that. Karim

  • Thank you.

    Please don't address me as sir.

You may also like...