Tryptophan vs L-tryptophan, which is best?

[gomelgo]

I have long had a sneaky suspicion that serotonin is more important for me than dopamine. So now I am moving my focus to boosting those levels. I am completely confused about the difference between straight tryptophan, and the "L" kind. Anyone able to enlighten me?

[TracyLaine]

Hi! what gave you that sneaking suspicion? I read a post today that shared an article indicating that tremor dominant Parkinson’s might need/lack serotonin more than dopamine. So I am intrigued about serotonin now!

[gomelgo in reply to TracyLaine]

There is another thread where serotonin is discussed. But I have had this suspicion for a long time because my tremors stop when sleeping or sleepy. Apparently many pep also have this experience.

[TracyLaine in reply to gomelgo]

My tremors stop when I’m asleep as well. Also when I am extremely relaxed, mostly when lying down before going to sleep and upon waking. This has always seemed odd to me and has opened my mind to other theories rather than the dopamine deficiency one.

Does stress/excitement substantially exacerbate your tremor? It does mine.

[gomelgo in reply to TracyLaine]

Yes, and yes! I have been also grateful that my tremors almost completely cease when meditating. And I always know when I'm having thoughts because that is when they start up again. I have been asking for over a year about serotonin. So it's good to have some validation. And when I first started mucuna, I felt more anxious with it. So that also tipped me off.

[TracyLaine in reply to gomelgo]

Good to hear that someone else has similar experiences! I am Catholic, and when I am praying in our Eucharistic adoration chapel, my tremor ceases.

How did feeling anxious with MUCUNA indicate a need for serotonin? I understand if a comment box might not be the place for this discussion (too in depth)! But if it’s an easy response, I’d love to hear your thinking!

[gomelgo in reply to TracyLaine]

Well, if the issue is a lack of dopamine, then extra dopamine should help calm tremor. When I first tried it, it made me more anxious which definitely does not calm tremor. But then I noticed that by a certain time in the evening, maybe after 10 or so, the tremors would calm significantly. That was when I figured it was the serotonin, not the dopamine that was having an effect.

[TracyLaine in reply to gomelgo]

Thanks!

[Youngoma in reply to TracyLaine]

same here

[cceelen in reply to TracyLaine]

I'm a follower of J Hadlock. My interpretation of Her work is that of the 4 modes we can be in (sympathetic, parasympathetic, sleep and pause (pause=mode we are in if we are awake and have Parkinson's) it is "normal" not to tremor in any of the modes except Pause, I think that being very relaxed puts our system into sleep mode, even if we're not exactly asleep

[gomelgo in reply to cceelen]

I agree.

[TracyLaine in reply to cceelen]

I have read her book and definitely think she’s onto something. Jonathan Sackner Bernstein as well! The problem I have with hadlock’s theory is that I can’t tell which kind of pause I’m in so I’m scared to try to undo it. She indicates that you need to know what kind of pause you are in or you could do even greater harm to yourself! Ugh!

[gomelgo in reply to TracyLaine]

I think she is wrong on that type of pause part. But agree with much of her experiences and theories. I think what is needed is also not exactly what she suggests. I think it has more to do with social support, and the fact that our society is structured for isolation instead.

[JayPwP in reply to TracyLaine]

Janice Hadlock does not take patients who have been on Levodopa for 3 months or more. It is written in her book.

[gomelgo in reply to JayPwP]

Janice does not take patients period. She is retired.

[cceelen in reply to TracyLaine]

yes, it is complicated & confusing.... I wish there were practioners to help navigate it...

[Rufous2]

There are two forms of tryptophan, L and D, but humans can only use the L form. So anything being sold as a supplement is L-tryptophan, even if it's just called tryptophan.

[JayPwP in reply to Rufous2]

Any dosage recommendations and contraindications?

[Rufous2 in reply to JayPwP]

Tryptophan as a supplement specifically for PD is a new concept for me, so I have no idea what the dosage would be for tremor reduction or other motor symptoms. A typical starting dose for sleep would be 1000 mg taken with some juice on an empty stomach an hour before bedtime. Dosages for mood disorders go much higher.

As far as contraindications go, I'd be careful about combining with other supplements or medications that raise serotonin, like SSRI's or St. John's Wort.

Gomelgo provided this link about raising serotonin on another thread; healthline.com/health/how-t...

[gomelgo in reply to Rufous2]

I wonder if GABA is better than Tryptophan, or would they complement each other.

[LAJ12345]

my husband was put on SSRIs years ago which were a disaster for him and now I see them on a list of drugs moderately likely to cause Parkinson’s symptoms. They made him over eat, gamble, buy loads of stuff we didn’t need and speed dangerously, before becoming suicidal. He can’t cope with excess seratonin any more than excess dopamine. So be careful!

My guess it’s gaba people need and that’s probably why clonazapam is the only drug that seems to help him (in small doses) without any noticeable side effects, at least not yet.

[MarionP in reply to LAJ12345]

Yes.

[PKLC]

Here's a good article: healthline.com/health/how-t...

[gomelgo in reply to PKLC]

I believe that is the article I posted in the other thread about serotonin.

[MarionP]

All the above pretty much hits on the mark, as does that article from health line. The only thing it doesn't mention and might be worth mentioning is to care you are not deficient in vitamin D3, it influences whether you have enough tryptophan/serotonin and of course if you live in Britain then you are going to be deficient in sunlight unless you go out and have bare skin for a bit.

5HTP or St John's Wort and the related L tryptophan supplements differ from the antidepressant meds which of course are far stronger, and also in how much they reach across the blood brain barrier how long before you will see some effect, so some experimentation may be needed, can give you a very mild serotonin boost without kicking you into the restless legs over stimulation that pemiprexole or the stimulating/agitating SSRI's will do, which SSRIs and pemiprexole/lexapro serotonin agonizing drugs and this stimulating group of SSRI reuptake inhibitors all are also responsible for kicking you into restless leg and the horrible compulsive behaviors and appetites involved with the lexapro/pemiprexole harsh SSRI or serotonin agonist meds do. It doesn't affect everybody but it sure is mean If you are too sensitive to it or it is the wrong channel for you. And I also have personal experience with Lexapro, local doc tried a little Lexapro on me and I ended up quickly being transported 300 miles to Mayo ER where when my doctor arrived immediately ordered them to get me off of that stuff super fast, going through that RLS and worst torture that looked like it might perhaps be serotonin syndrome, I was doing St vitus's dance supposedly, I've been like what Huntington's. Wife told me he yelled to get me off it... I don't remember because they say I was too far "out of it." Lexapro, which I react to similar to what you're talking about with pemiprexole and you're still definitely related chemically in their action and structue. They help some people and and can devastate others. Serotonin agonist and reuptake inhibitor both, in my case. Hence my medical records always carry warning. So I had both professional experience in which I observed the above in my patient load (retired quite some time now), and personal experiences of depression and PD patient.

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GABA (gamma amino butyric acid), on the other hand, is our brains natural brake fluid, and benzos like Klonopin induce more/add it in strength. I do not know If this is a substitute for the gradual loss of our brains natural sleep paralysis mechanism, which paralyzes our muscles enough to keep us from acting out our dreams and hurting ourselves or others (rem sleep behavior disorder), gradual loss of which is part of both aging and Parkinson's. Also I do not know if GABA can makeup for loss of melatonin. But a GABA supplement is therefore worth a try. GABA operates in the parasympathetic nerve system area of activity.

Do NOT be confused by the verbal similarity of GABA with the drugs named gabapentin and pregabalin!! These latter two and their class are sometimes extremely stimulative, they are originally for powerfully suppressing seizures like epileptic seizures and they can be very harsh and pushing you the other way and into restless legs and other sorts of, as some people have described, tortures, and in this they are like Lexapro, the stimulative but also often agitating type SSRIs. Only some people can benefit from those for their RLS and for others they cause trouble.

Since everybody is somewhat individual, so you try some of these things and see. But it's very much true that the serotonin side, sometimes associated with what is called the reticular activating system, is completely distinct and different from the dopamine system, and for some of us that can make all the difference.

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And oh by the way, L referred to the direction of twist of the stereo isomer. That's a long-winded way of saying Left or Right. Some molecules occur in two versions, with a L or left hand twist, or a right or R twist. A formal term is "Levorotary" or "Dextrorotary." Like saying starboard or port. (Or "gee" and "haw."🙂) Sometimes the different twists in the molecules means one is active and the other isn't, usually L is active but sometimes it's opposite, and sometimes both are active or neither are, or their activity is different. It's also the same distinction made when talking about, for example, "dextroamphetamine." (Some chemist once told me 'they use the Latin to fool you into thinking they know something you don't, it really just means "left" and "right."')

[LAJ12345 in reply to MarionP]

Very interesting. Thanks

[MarionP in reply to LAJ12345]

"Better living through chemistry." Or as the petrochemical and Ag industry lobbyist group once said in a marketing ad, "without chemicals life itself would be impossible." ( This was their PR campaign response to the public becoming aware of the "benefits" of Agent Orange.)

[LAJ12345 in reply to MarionP]

interesting that stiff man syndrome like Celinec Dion has is medicated with benzos. One of my hubby’s worst symptoms is rigidity of shoulders and upper back, for which they prescribed madopar which made it worse if anything. I wonder how they tell the difference between the conditions.

[MarionP in reply to LAJ12345]

Benzos relax muscles, I don't remember I think it's striated muscles but maybe also smooth muscles too, reduce heart rate, counteract adrenaline. Especially alprazolam seems to do skeletal muscles efficiently, can reduce skin surface temperature and one's experience of heat reduced.