This may already have been posted, but it reaffirms my hope and belief that high doses of B1, B3 (Nicotinamide Riboside sold as TruNiagen) and B12 are among the very best vitamins or supplements that we should be taking. This particular study involves B3, but there are several other studies suggesting that we should also take B1 and B12.
Vitamin B-3 may help to stop the death of nerve cells that occurs in Parkinson's disease, according to a recent German-led study that may lead to new treatments for the brain-wasting disease.
I have been taking this vitamin at yours and other's on this boards suggestion. thank you for the continued efforts to update and inform. It doesn't specify a dosage in the article but the truniagen bottle calls for 2 tablets. I take 2 in am and 2 in pm just to double up. plus i'm taking cold showers directly to chest and forehead as suggested by Dave Asprey to kill weak mitochondria and stimulate growth of newer stronger mitochondria. thanks again Jim
Interesting. As you observe there is a lot of evidence that all 3 of those B vitamins may help PD. I take a B complex supplement. All of the research I have seen, like this research, is lab based and not clinical and so it's a bit of a wing and a prayer when it comes to what quantity is beneficial
I take one tablet of the jigsaw multi-B a day. There's too much other stuff going on to say whether that vit B supplement has any effect. But overall, my PD is progressing less rapidly than I originally feared last year. Maybe , there's a case for saying its getting better. But its a confusing picture. Mostly, not too bad
Interesting article/podcast on cholesterol with a section on NR and niacin as a whole part way through. Basically don’t take too much or you will deplete methyl groups. Maybe take TMG with it just in case.
One more topic. We have time for one more topic and I want to do something that’s maybe a little bit connected to what we were just talking about niacin. And specifically, I know you’ve done some videos recently. I’m not just nice and, but also nicotinamide riboside, nicotinamide mononucleotide. And there’s a lot of talk of nicotinamide riboside and NAD+, and that’s becoming quite popular. A lot of people are looking at supplementing with that for increased energy levels, longevity and so on.
So, talk about what the relationship is there. Talk about why these compounds are important, why NAD+ is important and sort of the lowdown on how to increase it with these compounds. And then some of them, I know there’s some potential downsides to using these compounds and how to mitigate that.
Dr. Chris Masterjohn: Yeah. niacin is vitamin B3 and it is used to make, to primarily make two compounds NAD+ and NADpH. NAD+ is used in oxidative catabolism, which is the breakdown of food for energy. And it is one of the… one of maybe probably niacin and vitamin B5 are the two most universal players in energy metabolism. And you can say certain things like riboflavin is more important for fat burning. Thiamin was important for carb burning. NAD+ is across the board for everything. And then NADpH is primarily used for building things up, anabolic synthesis. So, you use it for nutrient recycling and use it to recycle glutathione, which is an antioxidant and a detoxifier. Use it for detoxification in general,. You use it for making cholesterol and fatty acids. You use it for making neurotransmitters. You use it, in fact, to make everything else that is a player in energy metabolism, like even make NAD+ from niacin for example.
When your niacin status declines, generally you conserve NADpH more than you conserve NAD+ because the antioxidant function is so essential from preventing the whole structure of your cells from falling apart. And so, usually, people are thinking mostly about trying to boost levels of NAD+. And NAD+ is not just used in energy metabolism to make you feel energetic. That’s one of the central things it does. It’s also used to lengthen telomeres, which are the little end caps on your chromosomes. Every time your chromosomes divide, you lose a little bit of the ends and the telomeres, have places where they rebuild them to try to keep them long. And it’s thought that a part of aging is just losing the telomere length. Cause as you just basically, you’ll eventually, you’ll start to lose genes that are functional in those cells if you don’t rebuild that at the end caps. And it’s also used for DNA repair. So, every time you breathe in air, you’ve got oxygen that’s damaging some stuff. You’d go out in the sun, great for your circadian rhythm, great for Vitamin D, but it’s causing DNA damage with every drop of sunlight that you get and you’re constantly repairing it. And in severe niacin deficiency you can’t go out in the sun because of your skin will get wrecked just by normal sunlight exposure. So, people want to use niacin to increase NAD+ levels. And when you eat it, like let’s say supplement with something called niacin or niacinamide, which niacin is another name for nicotinic acid. Niacinamide is another name for nicotinamide. Any of those have to go through a multistep process to be made into NAD+ and nicotine mononucleotide, which is NMN and nicotinamide riboside just NR both kind of higher up, the higher up the ladder in that synthesis and they’re more easily made into it.
So, there’s a system in place that when you consume… Oh, one other thing that you use niacin for that I didn’t mention is to release all your neurotransmitters. You break down NAD+ and that’s completely independent of its role in energy metabolism.
So, in energy metabolism, you use NAD+ basically by cycling electrons from the food you eat. And so, you, you like electrons go on it, they go off it, they go on it, they go off. If they go on it, they go off it. Doing that process you never break down the NAD+ you still have whatever you had. But for telomere lengthening, for DNA repair and for neurotransmitter release, all of those processes break down the NAD+. they break it down to nicotinamide, which ultimately ideally you would want to recapture salvage and produce NAD+ from it again.
However, as a negative feedback loop, when you make nicotinamide, if it accumulates, it’ll shut down all those enzymes. And that’s basically because if you don’t have anything to do with it, you don’t want to keep making it. And so, your cells are set up to say, “okay, we have Nicotinamide, we’re going to try to make NAD+, but if we can’t, we’re going to get rid of it. How do we get rid of it? We detoxify it with methylation.
So, there are basically two principals here. One is, if you have nicotinamide mononucleotide NMN or nicotinamide riboside NR, you are past nicotinamide. You’re halfway up the ladder to get to NAD+. You’ll make NAD+ before you ever have nicotinamide.
And so, you’re never at risk of peeing it out, methylating it and peeing it out in the urine before you are making NAD+, it’s basically a guarantee that you’re going to get more bang for the buck of NAD+. Another implication of this is that because all niacin, no matter whether it’s niacin, niacinamide, NR, NMN, any of them are ultimately somewhere in that cycle are going to be made into nicotinamide. That’s going to pose an accumulation risk, the body is going to have to get rid of it or risk getting rid of it. And if it does so it will do so by methylating it. And so, all forms of niacin will deplete methyl groups. Right? And that’s a risk because you need methyl groups to synthesize creatine, which is important for muscular performance, for energy, for feeling energetic, for mental health.
You use methyl groups to regulate your dopamine in a way that keeps you motivated in a way that keeps you from getting mentally stuck on things that you don’t want to be thinking about or focusing on. You use methylation for supporting your liver health, not getting fatty liver. So, you don’t want to be losing methyl groups unnecessarily, but you will, if you take way more niacin than you need, no matter what form it is. So, the take-home points are if you want to increase NAD+ levels, use NMN or NR instead of using niacin or niacinamide.
And second take home is don’t take more than you need, right? So, if you get a positive effect from 150 milligrams and you don’t get an increased effect from 300, don’t take 300. Certainly, don’t take two milligrams, I’m sorry, two grams. It’s in milligram.
So yeah, 150 milligrams, you’re getting a positive effect. Don’t take more, but some people might need to take 300 milligrams. But do that if you get a positive effect from it, not just because other people are doing it.
And then my recommendation to… there are no studies of this, but my recommendation is to step in and say, “hey, pair that with some trimethyl glycine which is a [methyl donor] and that gets rid of the risk that you’re gonna lose methyl groups. And so, TMG capsules, usually 500 milligrams, the dosing, sort of like if you’re at if you’re under 500 milligrams of niacin the dosing doesn’t really matter. One capsule will cover the whole thing.
If you’re starting to use high doses, I would use, I would match 500 milligrams of TMG to every 500 milligrams of niacin or niacinamide and to every 1000 milligrams of NR or a nicotinamide mononucleotide. And so, since I just said use NMN and NR instead of the other two, we can just say that for the NAD+ boosting benefits, start with the low dose, maybe work your way up possibly to 2000 milligrams if you need it. But take half the dose, whatever the dose NMN or NR you’re taking. take half the dose of TMG.”
TRU NIAGEN (NR) recommended dose is two capsules (600mg). According to this doctor, people need to take TMG, 500mg. My husband is taking the recommended dose, I guess he can reduce it to 300mg without taking another supplement, right? Argh.
I am waiting for Dr. Mischley to recommend/adjust vitamins/minerals/supplements according to my husbands test results. I sent her a list with vitamins/meds protocol and said she will recommend what he needs to continue and what not. She repeatedly emphasized that PwP must take: Glutathione, Turmeric, Fish Oil, and COQ10, that's for starters.
My husband’s genetic report said not to take turmeric. He has a faulty gene that slows down metabolism of pharmaceuticals and toxins from the liver and turmeric further slows it down. Interesting she recommends it. Has he had a genetic test?
He had a Toxic, Essential and Other Elements, Hair and blood panel test. No toxins but his Essential Elements are a mess. She wants him to have certain minerals/supplements.
She showed me "Integrative Therapeutics" during our telemedicine consult. However, that is the one my husband has been using before we started telemedicine consults with her.
TMG is not needed when taking NR according to the link below. NR is unique among the other B3 vitamins that invalidates making direct comparisons of NR with the other B3 vitamins when it comes to depletion of methyl donors which is affected only by the number of molecules and not by the dosage amount. 2 gm of NR does not have the same number of molecules as 2 gm of niacin. High dosages of niacin causes liver damage while a higher dosage of NR (5 gm) that gives the number of molecules equivalent to the number of molecules in 2 gm of niacin does not cause liver damage as measured by blood levels of AST and ALT. In fact high doses of NR improves liver health.
As a side note, I question the authors assertion that 5 gm of NR has the same number of molecules as 2 gm of niacin. I calculated that 4.15 gm of NR has the same number of molecules as 2 gm of niacin. A minor point which doesn't change the conclusions.
If anyone wants to be sure they are getting enough of this tmg ( betaine);it can be found in food
“What is Betaine?
Betaine is a naturally occurring amino acid compound also known as trimethylglycine, or TMG. Betaine is a nonessential nutrient found in numerous food sources, including sugar beets, wheat bran, rye grain, bulgar grain, spinach, quinoa, brown rice, sweet potato, turkey breast, beef, veal and some seafood, such as shrimp. It was originally discovered in beets, which is where the name betaine is derived from.”
I have previously sited an ongoing study in which Parkinson's patients are taking 1,000 mg of nicotinamide riboside per day. For better or worse, I am taking 1,050 per day. The capsules I take are 150 mg each. I take 7 every day...
The incredibly great news is what Jim just pointed out. There is a current clinical trial of NR for Parkinson's so we should have some honest scientific answers soon, and importantly as Jim said in the ongoing study the patients are getting 1000 mg per day.
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A Randomized Controlled Trial of Nicotinamide Supplementation in Early Parkinson's Disease (NOPARK) - clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...
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Also, on a similar note there is a simultaneous study of NR for treatment of a Mitochondrial disorder.
In my opinion: We would need to balance our Methylation issue ,either we are undermethylated or overmethylated. We missed the point that each supplement has different affect on individuals. I cannot take celery seeds extract, Vinpocetine, TruNiagen, Lithium Orotate,fish oil,Zinc but theses supplements have positive effects on tremor-dominant patients with PD, while I am doing well with B1,D3/K2, B12,B2. So everyone has different physiological and biological characteristics and based on those characteristics, he/she will respond to specific supplements.
Joe Peck (Sunvox) has addressed this in some detail. The long story short, at least as I recall it, is that there are multiple forms of B3. The allegedly possible harmful stuff is not nicotinamide riboside (Tru Niagen). I'm with Joe. I think it's good for our mitochondria so I'm taking it.
Sorry it took so long for me to get to this thread. I'm away at my son's college visiting for Parents Weekend and have simply been a little busy.
Nicotinamide is NOT nicotinamide riboside. One is NAM and the other is NR. They are both B3, but they have 1 critical difference and this topic was discussed before in which I quoted the relevant part of the studies.
NAM and all other forms of B3 EXCEPT NR INHIBIT Sirtuins. In the studies they specifically note that it was the action against Sirtuins that caused the trouble. NR is a Sirtuin ENHANCER NOT AN INHIBITOR. This is the critical difference and why I keep telling people it is NOT the same when you take other less expensive forms of B3.
Also, and this is HUGE: the clinical trial linked in the post has the word Nicotinamide in the title, but the researchers are going to administer 1000 mg of NICOTINAMIDE RIBOSIDE to 200 Parkinson's patients for one year starting in January 2020 to see if it slows progression. They are not testing NAM (nicotinamide) but NR nicotinamide riboside.
I will post again later in the week when I have time to dig up the relevant quotes from the study proving what I am saying about Sirtuin's
Bottom line: The dangers outlined were from NAM NOT NR. Yes, they are both B3, but they are NOT the same in what they do in the body.
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