long story short, my dad has high risk CLL. He is still on W&W but will likely start treatment in February.
my dad really wants my fiancé to get vaccinated for flu and covid. My fiancé is not an “anti-vaxxer” but has an extreme fear of needles and vaccines and only had the initial COVID shots. He also got the live flu vaccine in order to avoid the needle last time he got the flu vaccine. In all fairness, he did have a coworker develop myocarditis after the initial COVID series, which I think made him more paranoid.
he’s upset at my dad because he thinks my dad is being too demanding, being that my dad still “lives his life” (goes on trips, etc) with shots and sometimes a mask. He thinks that because my dad doesn’t take all possible cancer precautions with diet, etc. it is not a fair ask.
meanwhile, my dad thinks anyone who *knows* about his illness and is close to him should not have a problem with this request.
I’m deeply upset about the whole situation. I don’t know what to do—how do I convince one of them to listen to the other??
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Well, I don't know if you can. Adults will often do what they want, regardless of circumstances. If this means fiancé needs to mask at Dad's place, and Dad needs to mask at fiancé's/your place, so be it. This might be the reasonable compromise, since one does have the say in their own household. It would be rude to go to someone elses' place and try to insist they wear a mask in their own home instead of the sick person masking IMO.
The only "unreasonable" thing here that struck me, is your fiancé having an opinion that "I won't get any vaccines if your dad isn't going to take anti-cancer precautions *I* think he should (and what does that even mean, anyway? with respect to diet, etc.) and that this "dad ask" is some tit-for -tat thing. So if your Dad stopped living his life, and did everything fiancé thinks is "proper", then and only then fiancé would happily face his fear of needles and get vaccines? Sounds off to me.
You don't say how heated any arguments (if any) between the two have been. IMO your dad isn't out of line to *ask* and his reasoning is sound. I ask people to vaccinate/mask, and just avoid them/mask myself if they won't. I don't get in to huge arguments. If I made a big stink about it, I would be in the wrong, so if Dad is mad/upset & starting arguments about the issue that's not good/Dad is wrong. But it's also not good if fiancé is trying to dictate how Dad *should* act as a CLL patient.
thank you! this all started because we are supposed to fly out to see my parents on Friday, and I was on the phone with my dad and the topic came up…
I agree that I dislike that my fiancé is being transactional about it, though I see his argument about “well he’s pretty likely to get it from someone else with all the stuff he does.”
I know he has a legitimate phobia, but I’m also upset that it is this is a giant ask for him when I personally don’t feel like it should be.
The two haven’t gotten into fights. My dad asked if he should call my fiancé and I said I would relay the information…but when I did by fiancé got very angry.
Also by diet, etc I mean that my dad hasn’t looked into changing his diet substantially. My fiancé briefly minored in nutrition in college and very strongly thinks that this should be one of the first things my dad should have looked into.
Hmmmm it's tough to be sympathetic to fears others have if you haven't ever experienced something similar. Irrational fear is difficult for others to comprehend, but they are very real and can be huge from the point of view of the person having that fear. There's not much we can do except be supportive. Even people who want desperately to overcome irrational fears & try desensitization may not be able to overcome. So please consider that about fiancé.
And maybe ask why fiancé has such strong opinions about what Dad *should* be doing, that's so odd to me. Why would fiancé get angry/upset at the ask, why not just simply say "no"? I don't understand the strong emotional aspect, I wonder what's behind that. CLL is totally different than many cancers, and even within the CLL diagnosis the recommendations for precautions can vary wildly. Why does fiancé have such strong opinions around what Dad is "doing wrong"? FWIW, unless you know as a fact your Dad is being in large groups of unvaccinated people, never masking, not taking any steps to avoid close contact with potentially unvaccinated sick people as a certainty, the argument that "he's pretty likely to get it from someone else with all the stuff he does" is incorrect. And that having potentially sick people *in your house* for days is often much higher risk than many random social events. Of course, things like "season tickets to indoor basketball games where Dad never masks" is an example of "stuff Dad does that's high risk". But Dad can reasonably ask those *in his own house* take precautions, and if fiancé would rather mask than get a vaccine, who cares?
The fiancé could consider taking steps to get over his fear of needles. After all, if he suddenly was diagnosed with CLL or any other serious illness, he would realize that needles were just an every day fact. Also, if you plan to have a family, he will need to have the tDAP vaccine unless he’s planning to put his own child at risk.
I agree, and it can be done. I grew up in the "grab 'em and stab 'em" years where there was no time for kids to be treated as rational humans we seemed more like pets. All it did was help me panic and get better at fighting more people every time, I was up to 4 adults by 5 years old.
It wasn't until I was in my 30's that I injured myself at work and I knew there was a lot more coming I wasn't going to like. Then, I found that it was all about the loss of control. I could give permission to let someone else do their part, I for my part would control myself.
I think I can maybe see both sides since like your Dad I have CLL and perhaps like your fiancé I question the efficacy and therefore value of both the flu and covid shots and honestly none of us can live in a bubble and completely prevent catching either. We also know the shots won't prevent contracting or transmitting either virus. Unlike your fiance, my fear of needles subsided when I was about 6, so I did get both shots over the past 2 months.
Having said that, we all do things in life we don't necessarily want to do, but know we need to. That's particularly true when it's helping out family.
He should be grateful your dad didn't ask for one of his kidneys.
The path of least resistance and long term harmony is to take the shots.
"how do I convince one of them to listen to the other?"?
You don't, they are grown adults who are perhaps implying, that if you really love them, you will help convince the other.
By stating to both, "I(You), love both of you and am not going to take sides in this", you give them the dignity and power of resolving the conflict between themselves. This will set a precedent for future differences of opinion as well keeping you from playing constant referee.
The issue, is only the territorial/dominance rite that is socially ingrained in social shifts of perceived power, rights, respect, etc. Had it not been CLL, it would be which hand holds the fork at dinner or some other issue. They want reassurances from you, that when it comes down to it, you'll support one over the other. That is unfair and childish but very, very human.
We cannot control how others live their lives, we can't live for them. We can't control how others treat us. We can only control our responses to their actions, your wisdom may get them out of this effectively and with all parties regaining their dignity without blaming you.
When two dogs decide to fight don't get in the middle, they'll resolve it and often with less damage to either party, and mostly you'll protect your own health as well.
I've been the young dog, I've been the old dog, I've learned to wag my tail and stay on the porch. 😉
Is your dad's place spacious so you can isolate if you catch an infection n the airport? Or would it be more practical to stay at a nearby hotel, so you can maintain some distancing?
Your fiancee is right IMO. How about he just keeps his distance from your dad and call it a day. The only thing I ask from my family is that they let me know when/if they suspect they could be I'll or infectious . Then I stay away from them. They already know to tell me about every cough, dripping nose or just feeling off generally.
Guess your not going to like my comment but the getting angry and the controlling aspect of telling your father what to eat are little red flags to me. Why get angry. why not have a calm educated debate. I had a partner that tried to stop me seeing my parents altogether. It started with time limits then jealousy when i saw them. It didnt end good, But as Spark Plug so wisely said let them sort it out coz its you being pulled each way. My personal decision i stay away from non and anti vaxxers altogether.
I agree. Angry at your fiancée’s dad’s request when visiting him? He has cancer and a compromised immune system. If my daughter’s boyfriend had this reaction I’d be discussing more than a visit with her.
if you are seeing them at Xmas it’s too late. Vaccine protection doesn’t kick in immediately. If your father is close to treatment that means he is vulnerable so in this case I would side with him since you are staying in his home but there isn’t anything you can do at this point. Cancel your trip unless you want to stay in a hotel and meet in open spaces. It isn’t feasible or practical to stay in someones’s home and wear a mask all the time unless they have an annexe but what’s the point of that? Or you could visit your family on your own?
Having worked in a health care setting for many years, I’m aware of the amazing power of the sense of achievement for someone with a serious fear or phobia who's been successfully taught how to overcome it for themselves. Before I had some training, I wouldn’t have imagined it possible to guide others to do this for their own individual case.
I don’t want to overstate your fiancé’s needle phobia experience, as of course I don’t know it at all. Most of us though are unaware just how powerful and serious the anxious feelings associated with a phobia can be for some. For those with a significant fear/phobia it can be unimaginable to believe that it’s possible to face this and ‘be with’ the feelings of anxiety it can provoke. This can also happen for close family members who’ve known the person all their life. They’ve observed the severity of such anxious feelings, and naturally want to do anything they can to protect their relative from them. It’s likely that up to now your fiancé has managed the feelings of anxiety in himself and in others by using avoidance. Changing this strategy seems daunting and I imagine it’s easy to think “avoiding it works, so why change?”
I would suggest it would be worth gently broaching with your fiancé whether he’d consider talking to a clinical psychologist or someone with the expertise to help him learn to overcome his particular needle phobia.
Overcoming the need to avoid, and achieving the ability to do something whether or not it brings on feelings of fears/panic, would not only be physically and socially useful in his and others’ lives, but in my experience could give him a significant sense of achievement and the power to apply it to any other aspect of his life he might feel reluctant to face in the future.
A big plus for him, and also for those who are prepared to support him and prepared to face their own concerns - fears even - about his anxiety being provoked.
A fear of needles can be treated humanely with therapy. If your fiance is not willing to obtain treatment, I have to assume that he is in truth anti-vaxx, and that will indeed cause major problems if you decide to have a family or want to visit/help out friends. or family with newborn children. For example, newborns can become seriously ill or die when Grandma visits and brings them influenza.I concur with the recommendation to stay at a hotel or cancel the trip. I don't believe that your fiance will be welcome in the home with his current opinions.
The Covid vaccine, we now know, doesn’t prevent transmission. So, it’s not going to protect your Dad. As a person with aggressive CLL, I would never expect someone to potentially sacrifice their own health for my benefit. Young healthy people don’t need COVID vaccines. That is very obvious now.
"The Covid vaccine, we now know, doesn’t prevent transmission" Where did you pull that information? When vaccines are given high 80% effective rates, I'm sorry to inform you, they do minimize transmission and as SofiaDeo stated reduce the severity of the infection to make it survival possible for many that would have died.
Please don't mix your feelings about your rights with medical science. You cannot say it wouldn't protect her father anymore than I can guarantee he'd be 100% safe.
Actually, there is data showing the later variant Covid vaccine did not prevent transmission of these later variants like the original vaccine prevented the transmission of the original variant.
And also, the current recommendation in the US at least is that young healthy adults don't need the boosters *for themselves* like older, immune compromised people do. Or healthcare workers, or pregnant or breastfeeding women. Whether or not one wants to consider it, in case transmission is actually significantly minimized as well as *decreasing severity if one happens to get infected*, is still up for debate. But if you have at-risk family members, that fact may tip the balance for "getting one."
Covid seems to be more like influenza in that it mutates rapidly. It may also turn out that Covid is also like influenza in that there eventually will be a more or less stable number of variants, and that the "boosters" will be recommendations as to what is expected to be the predominant variant that year. This is what we do for yearly influenza shots.
IMO we'll need much more data before one can address "do current Covid vaccines prevent transmission." Just because early Covid variant vaccines decreased transmission, and later variant ones didn't is no guarantee either way as to "transmissibility" against future vaccine variants
Thank you putting a finer point on the issue SofiaDeo. So if young healthy people get this and it won't be all that bad for them, should the OP's father still be concerned as he the subject of the post is not in the young healthy ranks?
I'm not sure I am a great person to ask, since I am a health care worker with formal training in Public Health and will always skew "pro vaccine" unless there are *medical reasons* for a person not to get one. I take the "do what's best for society overall" point of view when it comes to disease prevention. Age has nothing to do with it IMO.
Young healthy people also tend not to die of influenza like older folk do, but that doesn't mean zero risk of severe illness, and it's no different with Covid. "Tend to not get this" doesn't equate with "can't get this". I am of the opinion people who can physically get vaccinated should, so we *can* reach herd immunity, and then those who medically are not advised to get vaccinated will have a lower risk of illness in addition to the rest of the "herd".
Look at how polio & measles are on the rise in the US (I think worldwide also); much of this is in the teens/young adults who are otherwise "healthy" but didn't get vaccinated. They were unlucky enough to be exposed then catch it, and are having more severe effects than if they were vaccinated.
This article written just under a month ago for Australians facing the latest vaccination period says “For young, healthy people who may be wondering, “do I need a COVID booster at all?”, having one annually is sensible. Although you’re less likely to get very sick from COVID, it’s possible. And, importantly, vaccines also reduce the risk of developing long COVID.”
This is a tough one and you right in the middle. I personally would not ask anyone to get a shot to protect me from my adverse CLL immunization. I am capable of protecting myself. I would consider it nice if others would stay from visiting me if they have colds, coughs and illnesses which could be transferred to me, how do you protect yourself from something which may not exist? Wearing masks fit in the same category, it has been determined by USA health officials that masks did not stop spread of covid, however I feel it is still better than nothing, but would not ask others to wear masks around me. I wish you a pleasant trip and enjoyable time with your father. Hopefully your father will lift restrictions on your fiancé so everyone can have enjoyable time. I go to daughters Thanksgiving dinner with unprotected people all over the place, my choice to see daughter and I feel risk is worth it.
". . . it has been determined by USA health officials that masks did not stop spread of covid". I don't believe there was ever the expectation of stopping COVID-19. Rather, masking was used to reduce widespread contamination at a lower rate.
As we usually see eye to eye on most matters, BigDee, could you find the source that states the masks were ineffective and the context of that statement it seems sort of broad.
The US Government "Select Subcommittee on Coronavirus Pandemic"'s Final Report stated "There was no conclusive evidence that masks effectively protected Americans from COVID-19." Which is being misstated & spread as "masks did not stop the spread of Covid" IMO.
This is a bureaucratic not a rigorous scientific report. I assure you, scientists are of the opinion masks inhibit spread of respiratory disease caused by airborne organisms. Masks are used in certain occupations to prevent chemical vapors and particles from use/manufacture harming workers. Surgical masks evolved to protect patients from being exposed to potential pathogens Operating Room staff might carry.
If hospital staff thought masks weren't necessary, why were many of them complaining about the paucity of them early in the pandemic? "Masks do not stop the spread of Covid" is nonsense, as far as I am concerned. Stop it 100%? Of course not. But *help* stop it? Certainly.
Back in the 1980's, no one pitched a fit I knew of if a healthcare or public sector job required vaccination. TB & later hepatitis were routinely tested for; if you didn't pass you got the vaccine. Or antibiotics against TB. No Big Deal.
Nor did workers for certain jobs resist wearing masks; you just didn't work at, say, the Children's Cancer Hospital if you didn't want to wear one. When I worked in a major university Microbiology Laboratory, the microbiologists working on potentially pathogenic agar plates all masked. Not all jobs there required a mask, but some did. Before Biological Safety Cabinets were developed, the specimen setup person in the microbiology lab had to wear one.
To date, the most comprehensive paper about masks has been the one written by Trisha Greengaigh et al.
“This narrative review and meta-analysis summarizes a broad evidence base on the benefits—and also the practicalities, disbenefits, harms and personal, sociocultural and environmental impacts—of masks and masking. Our synthesis of evidence from over 100 published reviews and selected primary studies, including re-analyzing contested meta-analyses of key clinical trials, produced seven key findings. First, there is strong and consistent evidence for airborne transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and other respiratory pathogens. Second, masks are, if correctly and consistently worn, effective in reducing transmission of respiratory diseases and show a dose-response effect. Third, respirators are significantly more effective than medical or cloth masks. Fourth, mask mandates are, overall, effective in reducing community transmission of respiratory pathogens. Fifth, masks are important sociocultural symbols; non-adherence to masking is sometimes linked to political and ideological beliefs and to widely circulated mis- or disinformation. Sixth, while there is much evidence that masks are not generally harmful to the general population, masking may be relatively contraindicated in individuals with certain medical conditions, who may require exemption. Furthermore, certain groups (notably D/deaf people) are disadvantaged when others are masked. Finally, there are risks to the environment from single-use masks and respirators. We propose an agenda for future research, including improved characterization of the situations in which masking should be recommended or mandated; attention to comfort and acceptability; generalized and disability-focused communication support in settings where masks are worn; and development and testing of novel materials and designs for improved filtration, breathability, and environmental impact.”
More details and references for each point listed in the summary can be found in the full text: journals.asm.org/doi/full/1...
Yeah, the idea that "it has been determined by USA health officials that masks did not stop spread of covid" is a major misrepresentation of findings. Not blaming the OP for saying that - it's not like you could figure that out from our popular press which is scientifically illiterate and politically wildly biased.
It's true that the general "hey public, mask up" was not very effective. Not a surprise when people were wearing random bandanas badly, not keeping any distance, or wearing more-or-less worthless blue paper masks.
That's very different than a properly fitting N95, which consistently has reduced transmission risk of airborne diseases in medical settings which is why doctors wear them. A careful reading of Cochrane et. al. will confirm this.
I have had CLL for 7 years and take my diet and clean living very seriously. I would and have not taken any shot or so called vaccine EVER! I take 30 supplements a day avoid meat and do everything organic! That is all your dad needs to do to be healthy. Tell your fiancée to take loads of antioxidants to stay healthy and he won’t get sick and your dad won’t need to worry! If your fiancé gets sick have him check in a hotel and your dad won’t be subjected to catching something! That’s how I live!🙏
This advice may be what you believe in however it should not be pushed as being the right choice. I go to one of the top CLL specialists in Australia and he encourages his patients to have all the vaccinations available. Whilst i agree with some of your advice your anti vax stance could result in the deaths of some of the people here if they were gullible enough to follow your advice. Unfortunately uneducated anti vax advice which is trendy and unscientific is resulting in the reoccurance of child hood diseases and un necessary illness and deaths.
Like you, we have quite a few members who have reported trying various means to slow their CLL progression and unfortunately it hasn't worked for them. You haven't shared your CLL prognostic markers that I can see, but I would anticipate that you have very favourable markers, namely IGHV mutated CLL, probably with 13q del or 'normal karyotype' FISH test results. If you have poor markers, then your protocol would be of more interest to our community, so why not share them?
Vaccinations are recommended by CLL specialists because infections are a significant cause of our reduced life expectancy and vaccinations reduce infection severity, improving survivability.
I'll give you one CLL dad's perspective. If a family member does not want to take reasonable precautions (this includes vaccinations), then I don't want to be around them. Some of my immediate family are strident anti-vaxxers and I have made it known that I won't be associating with them. I just don't need the stress.
In more general settings, I cannot expect the general public to make any adjustments for me. Those cases demand that I practice distance and masking. That's only fair because I am going into their environment, so it's up to me to make any adjustments.
Finally, I always reserve the right to advocate for myself. And I don't blame anyone else for doing the same.
thank you for all the new advice/opinions. as someone who has so much respect for both of these men, some of them are a bit hard to read, but I am glad to have them. It makes me feel validated in my own thoughts.
a bit more context—I want to be careful not to side with my dad over my fiancé unless there’s serious cause, as I saw a lot of conflict between my grandma and mom in my childhood and the stress it caused on my parent’s marriage. that said, I am not only very close with my dad—-but we have almost identical opinions on these kind of medical ethical dilemmas more broadly. my dad was a physician and my mom was a medical social worker, so I grew up with the “at the end of the day the pros outweigh the cons” attitude about vaccines. I have always been very pro vax personally and have gotten several boosters over the years, well before my dad even received his diagnosis.
I have talked to my fiancé about vaccinating our children. He does not seem against it. He admits his fears are largely irrational, but they nonetheless are VERY strong.
We left things off with him agreeing to get vaxxed, but a bit begrudgingly. I still feel bad about the whole situation—I have core values of both bodily autonomy and doing what you can to help others. And objectively (imo) it seems like an easy ask. But I know that it is not for him. He compared his fear to my mom’s fear of flying…she knows it’s not unsafe, but she has not flown since 1989, despite myself and my dad being relatively frequent travelers, often together. She has missed many opportunities over the years, but she won’t get in a plane because the fear is debilitating.
While my dad obviously doesn’t want to be around anyone actively ill, I think at this point, it’s more about the principle of the thing. He wants know that he can count on my fiancé in the future. Of course, I will be checking in with him to ensure I’m clear about his position before we take off on Friday.
The concept of "body autonomy" is rooted in gender equality.
IMO much of the debate around vaccines is, people want benefits of a society (go into stores, use public transportation, other public conveniences) but are unwilling to contribute to said society. Institutions that want to enforce a public health measure to protect a large body of people (hospital patients, factory workers, large groups of people traveling together, painters, carpenters, are a few examples) aren't really affecting these folks "body autonomy." IMO the anti-vaxx folk have conscripted this phrase.
There is a difference between "you must do this permanent change to your body" versus "we won't let you work here unless you wear a mask to prevent illness" or "you must wear protective shoes or you can't be employed at a station on the factory floor."
It's not about body autonomy, any more than "you must wear protective clothing in this profession to be safe" could be construed as "oppression". And as someone who's had people argue with me about protective safety things insisted on that were OSHA requirements at work, and got backtalk/flak about it, how "oppressive" I was, I am now out of patience.
I am not at odds with your overall feelings about public responsibility. Furthermore, it is true that body autonomy has been high-jacked by different ones with various agendas. I feel that real autonomy over all personal human rights issues carries the responsibility to bear the burden of exercising those rights upon one's self.
For example, one wants to enroll their child as a student in public school. The public school (note to U.K. readers, in the U.S. public school is not exclusive, it is the government mandated and funded compulsory education of minors. I'm aware that the meaning of my term is different in meaning in other parts of the world.) states that policy requires certain vaccinations for public safety of the school and community at large, at that point there is a choice to be made comply, or prepare to find another manner of educating the child that complies with the educational standards.
I'm done with the molly coddling of all the alternate demands that the self-entitled are trying to foist on society.
“The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins.”
In practice, yes, people in frequent and close contact with you as a CLL patient can help improve that patient's outcomes by being good about immune systems risks. That includes flu and COVID shots, handwashing, and being clear about when you feel sick and avoiding the CLL patient when that happens.
However... one of the good pieces of advice I got from my primary care doc was really simple: "You don't control other people's actions, only yours." It's not on anyone else to protect me because I have CLL. It is on me.
As a result, the rules I've established, which have kept me COVID-free from the start and mostly avoided pneumonia, etc.:
- I mask up indoors when around others
- I limit my face to face interactions outside of my family - avoid crowds, no bars, no public transport - places where infection risk is high
- I do not ask my immediate family to mask up around me or others; just tell me if they feel ill and we'll keep our distance. They have done so, many times.
- My adult spouse keeps up with vaccinations. My teen children do not do COVID vaccinations after the initial round as I consider the risk not worth the reward.
- Friends know the score. They test for COVID if we're doing something together indoors and politely decline if they are feeling ill. They mask up if I ask, but I don't.
So... I disagree with your dad, particularly since he's not doing everything he can do himself if he is not masking indoors and "living his life". Why does he get to do that and dictate what everyone else needs to do? That's playing the cancer card, and it's not fair nor reasonable.
If your dad declined to spend time around your fiancé, he'd be on firmer ground. Or the simple solution, he can just mask up when he's near. The risk with a good N95 is quite low.
I agree completely with Scryer99. I feel like it is up to me to protect myself, not the people around me. I would not dream of asking one of my children’s spouses to get vaccinated if they felt strongly about not doing so. I would wear a mask and keep my distance. If your father is truly living his best life, traveling etc, what is the difference in being on a plane with unmasked people and being with your husband? You never know if your fellow travelers have been vaccinated! I feel like someone else has said - this is an issue of control. Your father is playing the game of who do you love the most. The fact that your fiancé has agreed to the vaccination speaks volumes. He really loves you.
He has no right to tell her to get shots. They don't prevent illness 100% but help with symptoms if someone does get ill. She can sit far away, not eat directly near him. Obviously no hugs or close contact.
Here is my view, and I know it’s going to controversial. Vaccines do not stop your fiancée getting flu or Covid, they do help prevent or reduce symptoms. However what about all the other people your dad encounters everyday. You can’t control their vaccination choices. Here is what I do for my elderly parents, if I can feeling off colour under the weather. I avoid seeing them. So I would suggest your partner avoids seeing your father if he has any signs of an infection, even small. The other option is he could man up and get a tiny needle in the arm…..
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