Increasing distance nicely with a good group run.

It seems a lifetime ago that our running group thought that completing the C25K program was our ultimate goal and that actually running 5K was an impossibility. During that time most of us ran together three times a week and eventually completed the program.

Shortly after completing the C25K lockdowns and the various restrictions forced us to do a lot of running on our own. In a way that did us good. We all progressed differently choosing different methods to increase time and distance and the number of days we run.

When restrictions were relaxed, many of our routines had changed and so it was not often that we could all get together, usually only 2's or 3's with the occasional group runs. We then leant a lot from each other. We found that increasing the time we ran for, and increasing the distance we ran were actually two different approaches. Some of us slowed down and increased distance, others kept at our normal speed and ran for longer. When we got together, we sort of merged the two when we ran. That really helped me as I had reached a wall in terms of distance.

This weekend we had our longest group run.

One of our group runs a 20Km route once a month and we decided to follow most of that. I have been increasing my distance gradually over the past few weeks but I am not up to 20K yet. We all met at a point part way in to the route and off we went. with the weather cooler, it seemed to be far easier to run than in recent weeks. We were not sure how far we would get as it was a different distance and pace for some of us.

Other than a point where we had to walk (a narrow uphill path with some bikers in front of us that could not pass some hikers!!) we had a clear run. I was starting to feel tired when a little voice said that we were nearly at the end of here route which gave me that extra motivation.

We went from out run to a brisk walk then slowed and eventually stopped for some stretching.

There was a bit of controversy about the distance covered. Two of us with Fitbits could see that when we were forced to walk, the run had been split into two. The point at which they had registered us running again was different so mine said 17.5K in total and the other said 17.3K. One Garmin watch said 17.9 and the other 18.3 but both were continuous runs.

The apps on the phones were even more confusing. Map-my-run registered just over 16K on one phone and just over 17 on another. Although both appeared to show parts of the route missing, one had a straight line through what appears to be a lake (although we never saw it!!). Two apps running on the same phone also gave different distances.

We decided to call it a "nearly 18K run" which was the longest we have run together.

We had a good chat on the way home. One thing I was glad to hear was that my recent episode with not being able to work a shower was trumped in style. One of the group went to a family wedding and a hotel had be hired for the reception and an overnight stays. Her grandmother went up early on the night before the wedding as she was tired. When the family went up later, they noticed that the carpet was wet outside her door. They knocked to see if she was OK and eventually she answered unaware that the floor was soaked and water flowing from under the bathroom door. She had managed to drop the plastic bag she had her toiletries in onto the floor of the shower which had blocked the drain. After her shower, instead of switch off the shower, she had just diverted it from the fixed shower head to the hand held one. Without her hearing aids or glasses on, she had not noticed and so flooded the room.

[SueAppleRun Graduate10 60minGraduate]

Impressive running, i think different GPS tracking systems miss different parts of a route, just a little here and there, oh dear about the water

[Hidden in reply to SueAppleRun]

Thanks, I was very pleased with the run, particularly as I did not feel any ill effects after.

As well as the differing distance covered, the various apps gave quite a variety of average pace too. My husband believes that there is a fundamental floor in the mathematics used to calculate it on some of them, something about you should not take the average of averages!!

He wrote this down for me so I hope it translates well:

If you run 5K in 30 minutes, you average pace is 10K per hour. That is correct.

What the app does is work out your average pace per Km, so if you ran each Km as follows:

1st in 6mins, average is 10Km/hour

2nd in 6 mins, average is 10Km/hour

3rd in 6 mins, average is 10Km/hour

4th in 5 mins, average is 12Km/hour

5th in 7 mins, average is 8.57Km/hour

If you then average the times for each Km = 10+10+10 +12+8.57 = 50.57/5 = 10.11Km/h which is wrong!!

It seemed to make sense, but then he is clever at that stuff.

[SueAppleRun Graduate10 60minGraduate in reply to Hidden]

Now That’s interesting, but oh dear I’m not clever like that so will take your word for it and be impressed 😀

[MissUnderstanding Administrator Graduate10 in reply to Hidden]

If you just simply average the speeds on their own, it doesn’t take into account how long you spend running at each different speed. To get the correct answer you need to weight each average according to how long you spent travelling at that average speed.

So:

18 minutes out of 30 running at 10kph, 5 minutes out of 30 at 12kph and 7 minutes out of the 30 travelling at 8.57kph.

Mathematically, that looks like:

(18/30 x 10) + (5/30 x 12) + (7/30 x 8.57) = 10kph which is correct.

I really hope the apps are clever enough to use this, or just the total distance/total time! I’ve never thought about how they do it before!

[Hidden in reply to MissUnderstanding]

Thanks everyone for your explanations. I don't confess to be a mathematician so some of this is lost on me but if I do two runs over the same distance and take the same time overall I would have expected the average pace to be about the same. This does happen if I run at a consistent pace. If I run fast to start with, then slow down, even though the overall time and distance are the same, Fitbit gives me quite different average paces. That is why my husband thinks the calculations are probably wrong.

[Chris--B in reply to Hidden]

Yep, I can confirm your calculations make sense. I have just checked a few of my runs and Fitbit is calculating the average pace by averaging the split times instead of the time taken divided by the distance covered. Your husband is correct that you should not average averages as that is a mathematical no no.

I had noticed that two runs i did starting and stopping at the same point and only a couple of seconds different in the time taken showed quite a different average pace but had not bothered looking into why.

I am surprised that a brand like Fitbit can make such a fundamental calculation error.

[MissUnderstanding Administrator Graduate10 in reply to Chris--B]

Are you sure? Mine all seem to be spot on for total time taken divided by total distance.

Did you remember to convert the seconds to fractions of minutes and back again?

EDIT: I’ve just checked and mods on the Fitbit community state that average pace is calculated using total times and distances

[MissUnderstanding Administrator Graduate10 in reply to Chris--B]

Here’s an example. Total distance is easy. 16.06km. Total time is harder. Fitbit displays it as hours, minutes and seconds so all needs to be in one unit. I’ve gone for minutes. That’s 60+39+28/60 minutes. So pace is 99.46/16.06 = 6.19 minutes per km. We need that back in minutes and seconds, so it’s 6 minutes and 0.19x60 seconds. That gives a pace of 6”11. That’s what Fitbit shows in the top corner.

Hope that’s helpful!

Screen shot of run stats

[Chris--B in reply to MissUnderstanding]

Taking one of my runs, it gives split pace of 9'52", 10'19 & 10 '16" mins per mile. It then says the average pace is 10' 09" which is the average of the three figures (30'27" / 3).

The overall run time was 30'13" and 2.97 miles

The time as a decimal is 30.2166. Divide that by 2.97 miles = 10.174s = 10'10.43".

Mine therefore seems to be averaging the split pace rather than the overall average.

I have not been able to find the details of the other runs I mentioned but they were both 5k (3.1 miles) and the total times for each was only 3 seconds different but the "average pace per mile" for each was several seconds different where I would have expected it to be only about one.

I wonder if they have different calculations based on the units setting as mine is set to miles and yours Km. Again, it would be an odd bit of programming if that's how they have done it.

[MissUnderstanding Administrator Graduate10 in reply to Chris--B]

10”09 vs 10”10? Don’t you think your difference in pace is most likely just rounding errors in calculations? It’s only a second or so different.

[Chris--B]

I think I can trump both you and your friend's gran. I used to travel a lot through work and have spent many a night is various hotels and had a number of 'incidents' in hotel bathrooms.

One time, after getting out of the shower, the whole bathroom was wet with water dripping from the ceiling. It turned out the the shower head was lose and water was squirting out from behind it and over the shower curtain. A few turns fixed that.

Another time, in a very tiny bathroom in a hotel in France. It contained a toilet, shower and wash basin in three of the corners. It was so small the both the toilet and basin were touching the shower curtain. The door was at 45 degrees and had to be left open if you stood at the sink.

I leaned in and turned on the tap (hot one) and the shower head shot out of its bracket due to the water pressure and landed on the floor. I went to pick it up but the water coming out was very hot so left it and turned off the tap. During that short time, the bathroom was soaked as was the hallway carpet.

The best one was in the USA. I arrived late at night. The room was massive and so was the bathroom. I started to unpack and took my toiletries into the bathroom. I noticed an unlabelled dial on the wall numbered 0 to 25 in 5 steps. Curiosity got to me so I turned it slightly. The bath started to make a very loud rumbling grinding noise and realising the dial was the Jacuzzi timer I turned the dial back to zero but the noise didnt stop. It didnt sound too good and it would probably wake other guests. I then saw a notice above the bath saying not to turn on the Jacuzzi until water covers the top holes in the side of the bath. Fearing that without water the pump may get damaged I turned on the bath taps also hoping it would quieten the noise until the pump stopped. I went out to finish unpacking.

I heard the noise change tone so went back into the bathroom. I then found out why the water should cover the top holes in the bath before switching on the pump. The water was being sucked into the bottom holes and pumped out at high pressure from the top holes. It then rebounded off the other side of the bath and was covering the bathroom. I pulled out the plug and turned off the taps to reduce the amount of water in the bath. Unfortunately, the pump did a better job of emptying the bath water onto the bathroom floor. Luckily they had supplied a copious amount of towels so I was able to use them to mop up.

I later found if the dial is turned to the 25 mark then back to zero the pump stopped.

There have been other incidents but not quite as dramatic.

[Hidden in reply to Chris--B]

OMG, you definitely take the prize.