Hi everyone
My HA was now nearly 4 months ago and 2 stents later I'm recovering quite well and on the usual cocktail of drugs. I just wondered if anyone knows, or been advised by their Cardiologist about the potential benefits of taking Vitamin K supplements, and how studies have shown the reduction in calcium build up in the arteries, and in some cases reversal??
Thanks
Hi I used to take Vitamin K2 for the reasons you state. However I stopped after reading somewhere that it had the affect of making Plaque less stable which of course is the last thing we want !
Hi Dovaston
Thanks for the reply. In my research I did come across a series of videos by Dr Ford Brewer, who goes into detail on Vitamin K2 (M7). One of his earlier videos discusses the potential for Vit K2 to reduce the density of the calcium (so destabilise the plaque) as opposed to the actual plaque volume overall, but this was just an opinion with no back up studies on this being an issue. All the studies I have read have only been positive.
Thanks
Ah interesting thank you
Hi Squash.
I claim no expertise on this subject but pass on a recent conversation with my cardiologist on statins, which I assume you are likely to be on. I am on Atorvastatin 20mg. Statins have three main roles.
1. To reduce cholesterol. He stated the body needs cholesterol and my target should be total cholesterol under 4. Mine is currently 3.4 and was 4.9 pre statin (January this year).
2. They reduce inflammation in the body (including arteries). This appears to be the case. In July 2019 my CRP level was 25mg/l (coinciding with a suspected bout of diverticulitis). Last week it was 0.4.
3. They stabilise plaque by calcifying it. Cardiologist stated he is less concerned when he sees calcified plaques as this is less likely to rupture.
So, my take from this is that, over time, statins calcify ‘hot’ plaques to make them less likely to rupture. Whether that means that vitamin K works to effectively nullify the statin I don’t know and probably one for a doctor to answer. It may be that both work.
I also guess this negates the value of a Coronary Artery Calcium test somewhat once you have started on statins.
So, sorry I can’t answer but hope this is of some help.
Best wishes
You may be interested in the attached as some background reading:
consultqd.clevelandclinic.o...
Thanks for sharing, good article. Interesting! that Statins may increase calcification! which stabilises the plaque
Hi 84Green
Thanks so much for your detailed response.
Yes, the information is confusing! I have an appointment with my Cardiologist next month, but I will send him an e mail and ask his opinion. My GP had no idea! Some comments on your points:
1. I am taking Rousuvastatin (10mg) and Ezetimide (10mg) and my total Cholestrol is 3.0, with LDL of 1.2. I was taking 20mg of Rousuvastain but I was getting muscle aches and this combo works better for me. (less side effects)
2. True regarding reducing inflammation, plenty of antioxidants in foods and also I am taking Ramipril, which is usually taken for BP, but for me, my BP is fine, so I am taking it for plaque stabilization. My latest CRP readings were within normal range (although my Cardiologist is more concerned about the inflammation caused by the drugs we take).
3. Yes, statins stabilise plaque, they obviously work by reducing the total Cholesterol and LDLs in particular, so the overall volume of plaque and thickness would decrease and be more stable (or in some studies reduced). Not sure if it stabilises the calcium deposits on the surface (ill ask my Cardiologist)
Also, seems areasonable regarding the CAC test. I was told that this test is gives an indication of potential atherosclerosis, and not much use for us who have already had a HA!
Thanks for sharing
Thanks.
I’d be interested to know your cardiologist’s views on the K2 question. I didn’t ask mine.
I did ask about ubiquinol (my GP had never heard of it) as a supplement. He was ambivalent on its value. He stated that he believed fish oil to be the best cardio supplement but that three portions of oily fish a week was probably a better and cheaper alternative.
Interesting you mention ramipril. I was on this for high blood pressure which is now normal following diet and lifestyle changes. However, Dr’s recommended staying on it for heart benefits
There is so much online information, some of which seemingly conflicting. I’ve found a cardiologist I trust and who is happy to answer my questions. On that basis I’m guided by his knowledge and experience.
Best wishes
Vitamin K is an antagonist to warfarin?
Hi Lanc2
Yes, I read this to be the case, with anticoagulants like Warfarin, but not the case with anti platelet drugs such as Asprin or Ramipril
There was a recent discussion about this & Vit K should not be taken with anti-coagulant medication inc aspirin.
Hi 45sue
Yes, I read this to be the case, with anticoagulants like Warfarin, but not the case with anti platelet drugs such as Asprin or Ramipril
I eat 2 kiwi fruit and eat broccoli every day to get vitamin K. Would always recommend natural sources over supplements. I used to work in supplements and know these supplement companies only have interest in profits not health benefits.
Hi Stu888
Thanks for the advice. I believe that the best source of Vitamin K2 (M7- the form shown to shrink calcium plaques) is Natto (fermented soya beans) but it’s an acquired taste!
Hi squash
Before my triple CABG in Feb 17 I Had an Agatston calcium score of 1315 - extremely high!
With 3 cardiac arteries blocked 75-95%
(genetic factors)
My wife then 'found' Vit K2/ Mk 7 for me after my CABG and I've been taking it ever since
Last month, I had a myocardial perfusion scan which showed that the 3 CABG grafts were completely clear of any blockages
So, that really made me happyand I shall continue taking them forever!
Good Luck
Alps
Wow that’s great news! Did your Cardiologist think it was due to the Vitamin K2, or some other factor?
Thanks
Hi squash
I am currently writing an email to cardiology
And K2 is definitely one of the topics I will ask his opinion for
After all, with artherosclerosis caused by an unknown genetic factor, it would be great to have something to fight it with?
Also, it would be great if more research was put into this?
I will post here when I hear back
Some good news - after being told I had very severe cardiac blockages
I requested scanning of the leg arteries
And the result was not only that they were completely clear of blockages
But were measured at 1 cm, as opposed to the normal 0.5 cm
Maybe, being a lifelong cyclist had something to do with that?!
Thanks and good luck!
Alps
Thanks for the update, it will be interesting to know what your cardiologist says. Great news about your scan. Could be the cycling. In fact, I’m a keen cyclist as well and had my HA when I was doing some high intensity training. I’m back on the bike and gradually getting back to normal fitness. Let me know how it goes
Regards
Squash
Hi Alps
So the response from my Cardiologist was
... “As for non-prescribed / supplemental therapy, I am unable to comment in general given lack of robust medical community validated scientific evidence”
Mm, not much help I’m afraid!
Thanks Squash. I guess Drs are reluctant to recommend supplements as their training focuses on evidence based findings.
A lot of supplement reviews I read contain a lot of “mays” and “coulds!” That’s not to doubt their effectiveness.
I’m seeing a cardiologist on Monday and will ask about K2 (mk7).
Ok Thanks that would be great
That is encouraging news for sure may i ask what meds you are taking ?
Hi scotsrich
Thanks for the interest
I am not taking any medication at all, except for seretide puffer for long standing asthma
And NDT for hypothyroidism
No heart stuff at all
I decided not to, after a short 12 week course of 5 rosuvastatin, from Jan to Apr 17, caused muscle aches
I kept telling my GP about the aches, but he didn't take me off the statins
So, I took myself off them
However, the muscle aches not only haven't gone away, but have slowly progressed
I would dearly love a solution to this
I can honestly say that taking those statins was the biggest mistake of my life
I keep as fit as I can, with cycling (life long cyclist) every sunday for 60m (slowly!)
And light dumbells twice a week
My cholesterol is always about 3.0
And yes, I am so happy that the grafts are completely clear!!
So, will continue with no meds and vegan diet plus fish
(I was full vegan for 28 years then my wife persuaded me to eat fish)
If interested, see my early posts for much more
What health problems are you searching for answers for?
Thanks and good luck with your health!
Alps
Thank you for getting back to me. I had a heart attack and two stents begining of April. Some of this my fault but mostly genetic. I was given the usual menu of drugs Brilanta, rosuvastatin, bisoprolol, asa, tecta, ramipril. I don't do well on any drugs even low dose. I am now on Brilanta, Asa, tecta and they are pushing for me to go back on rosuvastatin again. I am educating myself about these drugs and the pharmaceutical industry and it is sickening to see the deceipt and greed not to mention the manipulation in the industry with, medical professionals and the public. . It is hard for me to understand why if something really makes you sick you should still take it like statins and the new and better anti platelet TICAGRELOR (Brilanta). I like your idea of vegetarian with fish, it makes sense to me a keto diet does not. I am assuming you have not had heart problems only thyroid.
Hi scotsrish
Yes I do agree that a good diet can keep cholesterol down, without those statins
And genetic factors, over which we have no control at all, is plain bad luck
So, following a good lifestyle is key
I have only had one heart 'scare' and the following investigations is when they found out about my severe arthersclerosis
This was on 15/5/16 riding up a steep hill at max
Felt 'strange' (none of the usual chest pains) and went straight to A+E
Many months of tests later - it was found that 3 cardiac arteries were extremely blocked - so CABG in Feb17
It was a hugly successful op!! Thanks NHS
I also understand that grafted leg veins (I had 2) are less likely to clog up than artery grafts - I had 1
I am now able to ride my bike again no probs
However, with the continuing aches, I had to leave my 17 av group and just ride slowly at about 12 av for 60 every sunday - lifelong habit!
All the best!
Alps
Hi Alps and Scotsrish
All of this is sounding very familiar. So I had my heart attack about 3 months ago, on the bike doing high intensity training, suddenly felt weak and no energy and just had slight indigestion pain. Didn’t go to A&E for 2 days, and only went because I started to get pains in the arm. Got to A & E and was told I was having a HA, and 2 stents later in the RCA, I am now recovering.
To say I was surprised, is an understatement. I have always been very fit, never taken any meds, been a Vegan for about a year, BP great, resting heart rate 46, BMI 21, VO2 max 58, Cholesterol 4.5 at the time, so no risk factors at all, apart from genetics!! I am 59.
I’m on the usual mix of drugs including statins, but 10mg Rosuvastatin and 10mg Ezetimide, and Cholesterol is now 3, with LDL of 1.3. But I also get muscle aches most of the time. Mainly across the chest ( mostly left side) for ages I thought another HA was on its way, but I had a follow up angiogram and it was all good, so it must be the side effects of the drugs (probably statins)
It’s great Alps that you can keep your Cholesterol so low, off statins, not sure if I can with my genetics, but I might try coming off them in a few months if all is good.
Interesting point about now eating fish. You probably know this already, but their are plenty of plant based Omega 3 and 6 sources, but if you are worried about ALA to DHA and EPA conversion, if you keep processed oils intake down, which are high in Omega 6, (even extra virgin olive oil) which compete with Omega 3 conversion, you get plenty DHA and EPA. Some good meta analysis studies showing this effect. I do take a B12 spray once a day.
I’m out riding most days now (or next Zwifting in the garage) but like you, I’ve dropped off the intensity. I’ve got my HR back up to maximum a few times but it scares me, so I back off. At least we are still out there riding!
Good luck to both of you,
Regards
Squash
Certainly does sound familiar being female we tend to present differently. not so much the elephant on the chest or pain down right arm and jaw. Mine was April 2 and 3rd in the ER with shortness of breath and extreme heartburn pain. Like a hot knife in the esophogus. April 2 sent home with heartburn and yet heartburn medication didn't touch it. April 3 flown emergency to a cardiac hospital. I too get the chest pain now which can go from hot and long light pain to stabbing like pain and i am not sure if it is meds or something going wrong again it will be a fear for a while. What are the other meds you are on? Crestor is not only nasty on muscles and joints but one pill and my memory suffers that fast. I found it also gave me strange dreams , fatigue and pressure in my chest. There is alot more negative out there than positive about crestor and lipitor and you can' t ignore it when it is written by professionals including renowned cardiologists and journalists. Fear or suffer not very appealing choices.
Yes, same with me, mine happened on the 9th March and 2 days before they realised I was having a heart attack. The muscle pain in the chest I am having is the main annoyance, but as you say, sign effects of drugs vs potential another HA.? I’ll take the side effects for now! No weird dreams or fatigue, possible memory lose, but that just could be getting old! The fear now is not too bad for me since I am convinced the pains are muscular. In fact I had a follow up angiogram and the heart was all good.
Im on Crestor, but they reduced the dosage from 40mg to 20mg since my Cholesterol is under control. Also Ramipril, Aspirin and Brillanta, the usual cocktail, I’m not surprised we have so many side effects. I was also getting the short stabbing pains, but they have gone now has the heart muscle heals from all the drama of HA and stents.
Mine happens as COVID was kicking off, but I’m in Adelaide so didn’t really prevent treatment and rehab.
Hope you continue to recover well, the aches and pains are more than likely to be your body healing and the drug side effects
Regards
Squash
I was in the ER today as my heart has been doing the jig off and on, it is possible that it is the Brillanta. Tomorrow i go for a stress test but i would feel better having an angio too. By the way i live in British Columbia, Canada.
Let me know how you go with the stress test, good luck !
That is a huge operation and I am happy for you that it was succesful and you can still do what you love, however it might have to be altered. I don't ride but love to hike and climb with my dogs something i never want to stop. What does 17av and 12av mean plus the 60? Told you i didn't ride haha.
Hi scotsrish
The CABG is so successful nowdays as they seem to have perfected it with 98% surviving the op
As opposed to much less than that when it was first trialled in the 50's
Great you enjoy hiking with your dogs, keep it up!
AV- 60 etc
I started competitive cycling at age 14 (70 now )and soon built my fitness up to be able to ride at 25 AV (25 mph average speed)
Which was what most fit young cyclists can do
60 is the miles
Kept the racing up till age 45 (still at 25 Av) and called the competitive scene a day
Then, very very happy to be able to still ride with a group of my own ability, always at my max
Obviously a bit slower each year
At age 60 I was able to ride at 20 av
So, that's about 1/3 MPH less each year
And I was very pleased with that!!
At age 66 when I had my heart scare I was riding at 17 av
Now, with the muscle aches, I can only manage 12 av
But, I shall certainly do what I can till the day I go!
And my username says it all!
An Alps cycling Holiday is what I dream about every year and have done it each year since I retired 6 years ago
Hope to go with my son this year
Keep up your hiking and climbing!
Thanks
Alps
Yes sure, 10mg Rosuvastatin, 10mg Ezetimide, 1.25mg Ramipril, 180mg Ticagrelor, 10mg Panto Prazole and 90mg Aspirin.
Hi squash
Tell us a bit more about your cycling please
Seems you too are a keen cyclist!
Alps
Hi Alps
Yes, I've been a keen cyclist for many years. We live in Adelaide which is great for cycling (flat beach rides or challenging hills ride) in fact the first UCI event of the year is in Adelaide 'Tour Down Under. I ride with a group during the week and at weekends. Usually do a big ride at the weekend , either 100Km + or lots of hills. I used to race Criterium and have done plenty of charity and endurance rides over the years. The HA has set me back, but i'm gradually building up again.
I'm semi retired so every year (apart for this year of course with my HA and Covid) my partner and I go cycling overseas. 2 years ago, we spent a month in France, doing the Alps (including Ventoux and Alpe d'Huez) and the previous year we did the Pyrenees (including (Col du Tourmalet). Over the years we have also cycled in Spain (doing the Vuelta climbs) Portugal, Iceland, Belgium, UK, South America, Japan and of course Australia and NZ.
Ironically, the day I had my HA (9th March this year) was exactly a year to the day when I did a huge ride, called the Three Peaks Challenge in Victoria. 240km with 4500 metres climbing. It took me 10 hrs 40 minutes.
I did have my HA after a high intensity endurance session when I was doing some research for the Uni of Adelaide. But I didn't go to ER for 2 days. fortunately I was told that there is no functional heart damage, so hopefully I can get back to somewhere near the fitness i used to be. Just glad that I can still get out there and ride!
Have you done any cycling tours??
Regards
Squash
Hi squash
Seems that we both got the competitive cycling bug early!
We came to settle in the UK from Bombay in 62, when I was 13
And one sunday, I saw a large group of cyclists whizzing along
Never saw that in Bombay, where everyone cycles, but not for sport
And absolutely wanted to be with them!
Got a secondhand bike and did so the next Sunday and have done a sunday ride ever since!
Your 3 Peaks time is very nippy squash!
The route I'm sure is super tough, just like the Marmotte, which I have never done
My cycling mate (fit chap) did it 15 years ago, when he was 45 and did 11 hours, with the broom wagon lurking just behind him!
He said it was THE toughest (and best!) ride he has ever done
Took him 2 1/2 hours to do Alpe D'huez
I see you and your partner are super keen to travel widely to cycle in all the great places in the world!!
Ventoux is tough! I'm told
Keep it up
My Alps cycling hol that I've done for the last 6 years is always based at Bourg D'Oisans where there ae so many climbs including Alpe D'Huez, Croix de Fer, Col de Sarenne, Col du Sabot and lots more
Absolutely hope to go again, with my son this year, so fingers crossed
We both did the first Alps cycling hol in 14 - it was a great hol!
Btw Bourg D'Oisans is crammed with Dutch cyclists every summer, 1000's of them, in their camper vans
Great that you have no functional damage, so do what you can squash
Alps
Just read your post to scotsrish. I'm 59, if I can do what you are doing on the bike at 70, i'll be very pleased !!!!
Hi, it’s great news. Could you proof that ? Showing the exam before and after ? Would be great to see it, but this plaque now is I still there ? Or there’s nothing well
Hi Squash.
As promised, I’m getting back with a non answer to the K2 question.
I had a stress echo today via the NHS so saw a different cardiologist. I asked specifically about K2 and ubiquinol. He said that he’s not aware of any data that supports their recommendation to heart patients. This applies to all supplements. Although, as with the other cardiologist, he stated that there was some data to support the use of fish oil.
So, sadly, no further forward. I guess it’s not saying they’re not beneficial, just that there isn’t sufficient research.
Of more interest (to me anyway), he asked why my Atorvastatin had reduced from 40mg to 20. I told him that this was the advice of the cardiologist I had seen privately (whom I like and trust). His view was that, in the absence of side effects, I should take the highest dose I can tolerate and recommended a return to 40mg. Not because of cholesterol lowering, but because of its ability to stabilise plaques. I’ll wait to see his report before deciding.
As with so much of this, it’s about taking in the info but a lot of decisions are still ours at the end of the day.
Best wishes
Hi 84green
Thanks for getting back to us.
There are a few comprehensive clinical trails that clearly show the effects of Vitamin K2 on calcium levels in arteries, the landmark study with the Rotterdam study (2004) in which 4,800 patients were studied over 10 years, which showed significant reduction.
The other two large studies (showing the same results) are the Prospect EPIC study (2009) and a more recent 2016 Norwegian study. Pretty convincing, but as always, more research is required! Anyway, I have posted the links below if you are interested
Regards
Squash
nattopharma.com/vitamin-k2-...
nmcd-journal.com/article/S0...
cardient.com/reference-libr...
Hi Squash
Thanks for these - very interesting. I may have misread, but these seem focused on the benefits of K2 as protection from developing CAD, rather than helping with existing disease. In my case, cardiologist states that my blockages are mild and can be managed with medication and lifestyle changes - which I’m keen to do for as long as I can. These reports seem to indicate clearly that if arteries are clear, then K2 helps to keep them that way.
Reading this and reading Alps’ responses, I am persuaded of the benefits but still want reassurance that taking K2 doesn’t undermine the plaque stabilising work of the statin. That said, If that we’re the case, I would expect to see articles and warnings not to use K2 if taking a statin. As with grapefruit juice for example. I can’t find any such articles. I’m sure there are many people who take both.
I found a couple promoting their use alongside statins but these come from supplement manufacturer.
Best wishes
Hi All
Just heard back from Cardio
He says that K2 Mk7 "has no proven benefit, to my knowledge"
Fair enough, but I shall definitely continue with it forever
As it may have played a part in keeping my CABG grafts nice and clear!
Good luck all!
Alps
Hi again Alps
There are a few comprehensive clinical trails that clearly show the effects of Vitamin K2 on calcium levels in arteries, the landmark study with the Rotterdam study (2004) in which 4,800 patients were studied over 10 years, which showed significant reduction.
The other two large studies (showing the same results) are the Prospect EPIC study (2009) and a more recent 2016 Norwegian study. Pretty convincing, but as always, more research is required! Anyway, I have posted the links below if you are interested
Regards
Squash
nattopharma.com/vitamin-k2-...
Thanks squash
That's good news to wake up to!
And to see some light at the end of the 'genetic calcification of the cardiac arteries' tunnel'
Over which, we have no control at all
I've read the links you posted thanks, very encouraging
Thanks for pointing them out
I shall share the good news that K2 Mk7 may have kept my arteries clear in a separate post
Do you mind if I share your links too?
Thanks
Alps
Sure Alps share away, more we can help the better
Calcium and arteries 
Coronary artery bypass graft.
Artery Spasms / Variant
Peripheral artery disease 
Recurrence of coronary artery spasm
