Warfarin plus vitamin K2 (MK4 and MK7)

[traveler65]

I am taking warfarin and sotalol following ablation for afib--works very well. However before this I was taking vitamin K1 and K2 (MK4 and MK7)--this correcterd certain beginning deterioorations---my dexa scan increased to 4-5 standard deviations above the mean which indicates very dense bones, and although not osteoporotic before there were areas showing beginning of deterioration. K2 supplies all the co factors that activate all the proteins that maintain every part of your body. Each MK 3---13) work on a different parts of the body. MK 7 activates matrix gla protein. this protein is produced in your arteries--and removes calcium plaque from the arteries . MK$ activates calcitonin. calcitonin is produced in the bones and when activated by MK$ draws calcium into the bones.

The problem!!!!!!!!!!!!! Warfarin causes this to stop because you are told not to take vitamin K.

Since warfarin acts on K1 (coagulation) not K2 ( activates body maintenance)---Is anyone on Warfarin and also taking Vitamin K2 (MK4 and MK7)??? there is som,e conflicting evidence about this in the medical community. Anyone doing this???

[BobD Volunteer]

Regardless of your condition there is some wisdom in taking vitK . The thinking is that by taking a regular intake of Vit K then any dietary variations are percentage wise reduced. Once you have stabilised your INR then everything continues as normal .

[traveler65 in reply to BobD]

@BobD I've also started to read many research articles and from web site for people recovering from blood clot who had to tawqke warfarin. All sites conclude / imply that to counter the bad side effects of warfarin K2 could be taken but it should be 10-12 hours before the warfarin. Thanks for your response.

The purpose of taking the vit. K is not to stabilize the INR although this is a great benefit. the point is to take the K2 (MK4 and MK 7) because if you do not you are going to have heart disease via cardiac plaque and osteoporosis via bone loss. The proteins (matrix gla protein produced in you arteries and which removes arterial plaque and calcitonin produced in your bones and which draws calcium into your bonjes --both only work when activated by MK7 and MK4, respectively. My concern was how to take Mk7 and MK4 forms of K2 without deactivating the warfarin. The answer came from the bloodclotsurvivor network website, where the 10 hour time between the K2 and warfarin waas discussed. fOR THOSE TAKING WARFARIN-- AND NOT TAKING k2 AND/OR EATING NATTO (WHICH HAS ALL THE MK'S THROUGH mk 13) THEN NONe OF THE BODY'S MAINTENANCE MECHANISMS (VIA VARIOUS PROTEINS THAT NEED TO BE ACTIVATED ) ARE GOING TO WORK AND YOU WILL SLOWLY DEVELOP ALL THE

DISEASES OF AGING"--WHICH IS ACTUALLY A VITAMIN k2 DEFICIENCY.

[traveler65 in reply to BobD]

@BobD see the book by Dr. Bruce Ames entitled "The triage theory of aging" explains need for K2 supplementation.

[traveler65 in reply to BobD]

@BobD Hi Bob D--it is not just K1 and not just some wisdon. All the menaquinones (MK's and there are 13 of them) of K2 are co factors that activate proteins (each in a different organ of the body) bones, arteries, etc) and what this does is allow those proteins to do their maintenance jobs--ex. matrix gla protein produced in arteries removes calcium plaque from arteries, calcitonin, produced in bones pulls calcium into bones-another protein, when activated, maintains the myalin sheath insulating all the nerves-therefore no coronary heart disease and no osteoporosis, no multiple sclerosis. Actually the French Paradox is not so much due to the wine as it is to their cheese consumption (which contains loads of MK's).. MD's totally ignore this simple fact of human physiology, will never tell it to any patients, and expect you to have these " diseases of aging" because they think that is what you are supposed to do. There is even a nearby college giving a B.A. in Gerontoloigy which teaches all the ways your body deteriorates and the drugs used to help. Too bad no one is teaching about geroprotectors.

I had a discussion with one of these graduates, and when I said my husband and I were into anti aging--slowing, stopping and reversing some of the effects of aging, this was so out of her comfort zone that she refused to talk about it. I suggested she read "The Triage theory of Aging" by dr. Bruce Ames--- this created and even stronger emotional adverse response.

[MarkS]

I take Vit K2 as well as warfarin. It's an old wives' tale about not taking Vit K with warfarin, in fact it's the exact opposite. You need to take Vit K, particularly K2. I've found it stabilises my INR really well - I'm 99% of the time in the 2-3 range. It also has the benefits of preventing plaque build up as you've pointed out.

I take the Jarrow 90mcg MK-7. I don't think it's necessary to take MK-4, it's half life in the body is not long enough. Similarly K1, I just have broccoli, spinach etc. quite regularly (and it doesn't affect my INR).

I've read some medical articles which support the use of Vit K to stabilise INR, and particularly K2.

I would recommend you get a Coaguchek however. I had to increase my dose on warfarin by about 0.5 or 1mg when I started K2.

Mark

[traveler65 in reply to MarkS]

MarkS I started to take the same, Jarrow 90 mcg MK 7 this morning and took the warfarin 12 hours later. I go to a nearbyc coumadin clinic to have the INR checked by a special nursse. Las t time it was 2.7 I've read thqt when takin gg the MK 7 my INR might drop[ .4 or .3; but either way my Inr WOULD THEN BE 2.3--2.4, WHICH IS FINE. sINCE I am adding something different that might affect INR, the nurse can have me come in once a week to check the INR, just to make sure it is stabilized.

I did not know there was a home test , but I will look into getting Coagucheck. Are you in the USA or UK?

Thanks very much for your reply!!

[MarkS in reply to traveler65]

Hi Traveler, I'm in the UK where Coaguchek's are a lot cheaper than in the States. I take the K2 at the same time as warfarin, just to make life a bit easier and it doesn't seem to affect it.

[crudeoiltrader in reply to MarkS]

Might want to update your thinking > vitamindprotocol.com/the-vi...

[traveler65]

@MarkS----Hi Mark S--that's interesting. I am in the United States where Coaguchek costs about $500-$600 and the test strips cost about $250 per 48 and then of course there are the lancets. I am considering getting it anyway. However I have a medical system with a Coumadin Lab-- a lab with a nurse specially trained to monitor coumadin dose and INR-- since this is 1 mile from my home, it is no trouble to see her. Also, when I discuss with her that I am taking the K-7, instead of the monthly checks we've gotten to because the INR appears to be stable---- we can do weekly, just to make sure it is okay. From discussions with her, I know she expects us to eat all the greens, veggies etc. and if required just adjust the warfarin. It is interesting that she knows more about this than the ep--who only says keep eating the K2 foods--but does not know about the use of the supplement. I am glad to hear that others are taking MK 7 and so will avoid the "diseases of agin" caused by lack of the MK activator co factors. It is enough having afib without slowly aquiring diabetes, alzheimers parkinsons , ms and etc.--especially when it can be prevented.

[tofita85]

Hi Traveller, I read your comment about asthma and glutathion relationship. My son has an athma and he is allergic to molds (only alternaria) so Do you think he should not consume vinega and fermented foods? And what can I do for him to reduce asthmatic coughing attacks? How can I find glutathion as an inhaler? Please please help me...