Vitamin K2 MK7 and D3

[Mowgli44]

Dr Gupta York Cardiologist has recently posted a video on benefits of Vit D3 and K2 MK7 for heart health. Any opinions?

[CDreamer]

All very important for anyone with Osteoporosis - it’s getting the delivery and dosage you specifically need which I’m finding tricky.

I haven’t seen the video but will check it out.

[CDreamer]

Which video - the heart/bone connection one?

I think the research into the connection between calcification of arteries and loss of bone density is far more significant than talking about cholesterol.

The Clot Thickens - Malcom Kendrick gives a good explanation of the process of arteriosclerosis and the bone connection.

I think I first heard of this connection in Atul Gwande’s book - Being Human.

[Mowgli44 in reply to CDreamer]

it was only released yesterday and called K2 and bone/heart connection. He’s called Dr Sanjay Gupta and he’s a cardiologist in York UK

[CDreamer in reply to Mowgli44]

we know him well on this site. What I was saying is that what he is saying is not new news - see my post above.

[Mowgli44 in reply to CDreamer]

https:youtu.be/6eaKYUJ_4pO

[jeanjeannie50]

Here's the direct link:

youtube.com/watch?v=6eaKYUJ...(Not working as expected?)

[Mowgli44 in reply to jeanjeannie50]

thank you

[IronGirl68 in reply to jeanjeannie50]

Thank you 🙏

[jeanjeannie50]

Thank you for posting this Mowgli, I found it very interesting.

[Tarikor]

I take up to 50,000 IU of D3 a day for weeks in row when sick, NO ADVERSE EFFECTS whatsoever and a normal daily dose of 10,000 IU a day. The D3 I take comes with Vitamin K2 MK7 subtype (the best) and it is 180mcg dose. I also take a standalone MK7 capsule with 100mcg daily. K2 is a miracle vitamin and a DISGRACE that our medical system does sweet (removed by admin) about informing doctors and patients about it. We barely get it in our food and those of us who are AFibbers, usually also have some digestive issues or worse (and the older you are the worse you digest).

K2 removes calcium from blood vessels and any soft tissue calcification and puts it where it belongs, in our bones. It does take months but there are thousands of anecdotal reports online of even doctors reporting using it themselves for arthritis and having amazing effects with no side effects.

I would suggest taking D3 with K2 always, as D3 helps absorb calcium from our food, however it just deposits it into our blood. You need K2 to grab this free floating calcium and put it into our bones.

Hope this helps!

[Mowgli44 in reply to Tarikor]

thank you!

[Nick1957 in reply to Tarikor]

Sounds very good. Any recommended brands to look out for.?

[Tarikor in reply to Nick1957]

For the combo I use NOW (Mega D-3 & MK-7) which contains 5000 IU of D3 and 180mcg MK-7.

For the single K2 vitamin supplement I use Healthy Origins, VITAMIN K2 as MK-7. This one has 100 mcg.

I chose both after extensive research to avoid other stuff they like adding and minimising fillers and quemicals. I am not affiliated with either company nor receive anything at all from them regarding recommending them, they are just the ones I happen to use currently.

[Bunnyuk in reply to Nick1957]

I use Cytoplan. Excellent products. Think I've got a 10% discount code somewhere if anyone's interested.

[Mowgli44 in reply to Nick1957]

I use Ethical Nutrition for magnesium and Healthspan for D3 and K2

[Timetraveler67 in reply to Tarikor]

I’m new on warfarin and my clinic nurse has told me to stop my d3 k2 supplement. I tried to show her good evidence to carry on taking it but she said to stop it and that everyone can get enough K2 from there diet

[Hidden in reply to Timetraveler67]

Did she tell you why you should stop taking it?

[MarkS in reply to Timetraveler67]

Unfortunately she is very out of touch. It shows the dangers of letting nurses advise on such matters.

[Penturner in reply to Timetraveler67]

She does not seem to understand the difference between K1 and K2.

[Gladstone001]

how do you do that on a budget? Do you self-pay or is it NHS prescribed?

[bassets]

Thank you

[tunybgur]

Most people with AF take warfarin or a similar anti coagulant. I don't think K2 supplements are advised as it is a significant factor in blood clotting.

Please check with your Consultant before taking supplements.

Good luck

[Ppiman in reply to tunybgur]

I believe that there is no other anticoagulant that is similar to warfarin. The newer DOAC anticoagulant drugs are said to be safe with foods and health supplements but, as you say, it's important never to take any drug or supplement without GP approval.

Sadly, my own attempts with vitamins D and K got nowhere useful and caused a possible kidney stone, so I'm looking forward to seeing this video.

Steve

[tunybgur in reply to Ppiman]

Warfarin is a Vit K antagonist, so it simply doesn't make sense taking additional K which will require an increase in warfarin. I don't know much about the DOAC's, an awful lot of people are on warfarin so they should read any post promoting Vit K with caution.

[Auriculaire in reply to tunybgur]

On the contrary. It is mostly vit K1 ( obtained from veggies) that is involved in the clotting cascade . There have been some people here who have used vit K2 along with Warfarin and have said that it helps stabilise the INR with only a small increase in Warfarin. They get less dietary interference with the consequent ups and downs.

[tunybgur in reply to Auriculaire]

Warfarin blocks the liver from using vitamin K to make clotting factors so adding from one end and blocking from the other doesn't really make sense, but I'm very open to reading any peer reviewed studies on this subject.

[Auriculaire in reply to tunybgur]

There are 3 forms of Vit K . It is not a single vitamin.

Vit K1- phylloquinone

VitK2 -menaquinone ( several subtypes)

VitK3 - menadione

K1 is found mostly in green leafy vegetables . K2 is found in fermented foods and animal products but can also be made in our intestines by bacteria. Those people who have had lots of antibiotics might lack the bacteria for this . Most of the intake from diet is K1 from veggies. It has been found that K2 affects clotting as well as K1 by measuring the effect of eating natto ( rich in K2) on clotting factors. The effect was longer lasting than that of K1 from consuming vegetables. So it makes sense that taking K2 might help to stabilise INR especially for people who struggle with this. Given the importance for bone and artery health of K2 it might be worth taking a little more warfarin particularly if the dose can then be consistent and worries about whether K1 rich veggie consumption is consistent discarded.

[Ppiman in reply to tunybgur]

Well said. I think no new people in the UK will be put on the older anti-coagulants, except for specific reasons.

Steve

[Mowgli44 in reply to Ppiman]

that’s my concern too. I honestly don’t think Dr Gupta (in the video) would suggest it if that was an issue do you think. He also suggests vitamin C for Afib.

[Ppiman in reply to Mowgli44]

I think he will only suggest safe things, yes. Some of what he suggests isn't widely proven (for example, high doses of vitamin D and magnesium supplements), but he is a very switched on doctor indeed.

Steve

[Auriculaire in reply to Ppiman]

There are several other vit K antagonist anticoagulants. Before the DOACs Préviscan ( can't remember it's generic name ) was the most widely used here. Coumarin ( Warfarin) was hardly used at all. I was on Préviscan for a few months.

[Ppiman in reply to Auriculaire]

Thanks for that information. Apart from the heparin type drugs and the newer DOACs, I'd never heard of other anticoagulants than warfarin. It seems Previscan was used in France but not elsewhere.

Steve

[Auriculaire in reply to Ppiman]

I've no idea why it was so widely used here. I read an article by a French haematologist that said it was inferior to Warfarin with worse side effects . It gave me terrible pains in my legs. They would come on like clockwork a couple of hours after taking it. I also found it very difficult to achieve a stable INR. I was glad to stop it.

[MarkS in reply to tunybgur]

I use Vit K2 (and also take D3 in the winter). It helps to stabilise my INR. If you are on warfarin, it is important to have a steady intake of Vit K and a supplement of K2 helps even out the ups and downs from a varied diet. It is now realised that it is wrong to try to minimise Vit K when on warfarin. Here are some articles:

"Eating more vitamin K found to help, not harm, patients on warfarin":

eurekalert.org/news-release...

"Low-Dose Vitamin K to Augment Anticoagulation Control":

medscape.com/viewarticle/51...

"Increasing Dietary Vitamin K Stabilizes Anticoagulation Therapy in Warfarin-Treated Patients with a History of Instability: A 24-week RCT":

eventscribe.com/2019/ASN/fs...

[tunybgur in reply to MarkS]

Interesting, I see two of the studies increased dietary Vit K.

I take warfarin and have been relatively stable for several years although my dietary intake of Vit K is quite high and I was told to not change my diet.

I consume a lot of fermented food, kefir, sauerkraut etc, so I would probably fit into one of these groups.

[Mowgli44]

it’s not vitamin k it’s k2 and I was referring specifically to DOCs. I know nothing about warfarin

[tunybgur in reply to Mowgli44]

Yes, the problem is this is a heart specific site and the most common heart arrythmia is AF. Many people with AF are prescribed an anti-coagulent such as warfarin.

I didn't see anything about DOAC's specifically, although I haven't watched the video.

Warfarin blocks the liver from using vitamin K to make clotting factors so adding from one end and blocking from the other doesn't make sense.

[Mugsy15 in reply to tunybgur]

There are many AF sufferers who have no need for anti coagulants; a subject repeatedly discussed here. Only those who score 2 + on the ChadVasc scale are generally prescribed ACs.

Because the onset of AF often occurs in later life or is triggered by other conditions, the greater proportion are on ACs, but this is a long way from 'virtually everyone'.

[tunybgur in reply to Mugsy15]

Sorry Mugsy, you are absolutely correct, I am in my 70's and was advised by my GP that it was standard practice to put patients like myself with AF on anti-coags, what he didn't explain was that was very much age related, however I would like to bring your attention to the following observations by an NHS study of the subject :

'Currently less than half of UK patients with known AF are on anticoagulant medication when they go to the hospital with a stroke'.

'It's estimated that if AF was adequately treated (with anti-coags), around 7,000 strokes would be prevented and over 2,000 lives saved every year in England alone.'

Once again, sorry for my misleading statement which I have amended....

[localad]

3 years ago my wife had a very nasty gut infection. 5 days of D+V.

2 days after the symptoms cleared she got very red eyes and extremely sore achilles tendons. It appeared to be some reactive arthritis. She did not want to go to the doc.

Short term prognosis for these symptoms is poor and they can last for up to a year or indefinitely. It takes ages to get RA diagnosed and the drug treatment isn't harmless.

After 3 days of sore eyes and ankles with an inability to walk she took 50,000 IU Vit D/day over 3 days, (ie at an 'anti inflammatory' dose) and her symptoms in the eyes and ankle tendons disappeared and have not returned since.

[Auriculaire in reply to localad]

Was she treated with a Fluoroquinolone antibiotic for the infection? One of the most common side effects of this Achilles tendon inflammation sometomes leading to rupture.

[localad in reply to Auriculaire]

No meds for the infection. She just toughed it out, no food for 5 days, just water.

Gut viral infection a 'classic' trigger for reactive arthritis. The sore eyes another 'classic' symptom for RA. (her bladder was ok though)

[KMRobbo]

There is a lot more detail on K3 D3 and Calcium in these two 15 minute lectures by Dr Pradeep Jamnadas, who I have been watching for a while:

youtube.com/watch?v=D_UJaEZ...(Not working as expected?)

youtube.com/watch?v=z3njgh2...(Not working as expected?)

[kocoach]

Thank You so much for this video. I had a cti scan of my chest just last month and it showed " extensive coronary artery calcification" so when I have my video appointment with the cardiologist next month I can relate and direct her to this video and get her input. Thanks again, Have a Blessed Day!

[KMRobbo in reply to kocoach]

I am quite skeptical about a lot of the stuff posted by " expert" medics on the internet, but there are quite a few concurring on this. Jamnadas has a LOT of lectures with really interesting stuff.One of them is "the fat lies" and if only half of what he discusses is right it is mind blowing! Thats about 1.5 hours long.

[Hidden]

I would like some advice please. AF in July 2017, I think caused by high BP and ALSO developed a BRVO (branch retinal vein occlusion) at the same time! I am convinced they are all linked, but the 'experts' poo poo my theory!

Anyway, I now take 60mg Edoxaban and 2.5mg Bisoprolol fumerate each day. I am also taking the K2 D3 and msm.

In July 21 I was diagnosed with a very early Grade 1 breast cancer, for which I had a lumpectomy in Oct 21, but no Radiotherapy as I fell outside the 'window of opportunity ' waiting for a second opinion for treatment. I am on Letrozole which depletes the body of Oestrogen, for 5 years. I also take calcium + vitamins D for my bones, as I do not want osteoporosis as well!

My cancer had not spread to the lymph nodes, but I do have side effects, pain in knees, fingers, tingly fingers, collar bone pain and have had some scans and so far all is clear. Aspirin has been shown to help prevent recurrence of breast cancer, so what I want to know is, could I halve the edoxaban and take 30mg of Edoxaban and 75 mg aspirin instead, to help with the breast cancer prevention? I took HRT for over 30 years, happily and stopped cold turkey in Dec 21 with disastrous effects! The NOAC clinic is impossible to contact, and no-one seems to want to even discuss it!

[Autumn_Leaves in reply to Hidden]

I suggest you seek a professional opinion rather than ask strangers on the internet! This is your health, it’s quite a complicated picture, and you need to take care of yourself. D3 & K2 will probably be fine if you keep to a sensible dose. I’m not a fan of megadosing unless there’s a demonstrable medical need (ie indicated by blood tests done by your consultant or GP). If you want to alter the dose of your AC and take asprin, you’ll be better off seeking an opinion from your cardiologist. Also, is there strong scientific evidence about the preventative effects of aspirin? Is aspirin recommended as a standard treatment? What do your specialists say? I appreciate that it’s difficult to get any time with consultants etc to discuss these concerns but I wouldn’t mess around with your medication based on what so-and-so from the internet says. There’s a lot of information online but there’s also a lot of misinformation and ill-informed opinion too. You don’t want to put yourself at risk by following not very good advice or tenuous evidence.

[Hidden in reply to Autumn_Leaves]

thank you-I am trying to get in touch with the coagulation clinic, but it's a leave a message thing. I don't have a cardiologist-I haven't seen one since 2017, as the GP's -several-they keep changing-say I don't need to see anyone-they can deal just as well with the ongoing 'care'(!!) Aspirin is not a standard treatment, but it has been shown to prevent recurrence. Standard treatment is anti-hormones for 5-10 years, which have awful side effects, including hair loss, osteoporosis, bone pain, joint stiffness, numb fingers, brain fog, I could go on!

[Autumn_Leaves]

Yes, it’s pretty awful at the moment trying to see/speak to anyone right now, but you do deserve proper care especially as you have multiple health considerations and you only want to do your best for your own health. My sister-in-law has been through the same, twice in fact. She’s doing well and is in remission but she’s very disciplined about her health routines, particularly her exercise and her diet, and understandably so.

The thing about asprin is that you have to be careful about the risks of stomach irritation and bleeding. It used to be recommended in Scotland—not sure about England and other UK nations—for elderly people and for people with certain factors to reduce CVD and stroke risk but not any more as the risks outweighed the benefits. So you need to weigh up the pros and cons. The AC considerations are important if you have AF. I hope you get to speak to someone who can answer your questions. Sometimes we need to be our own advocates and assert ourselves, which is easier said than done.