Deciding to add a protein shake to my diet since I am on orgovyx.
Some posts mention plant based diet might be better for us.
Are most taking plant based protein shakes or whey based ?
Better to take whey protein or plant ... - Advanced Prostate...
Better to take whey protein or plant protein ?
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Simpson80
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Whey protein
Why
Why not? Don't believe that plant based is some kind of miracle cure that people seem to be looking and hoping for. Just living my best life with no "micromanaging" of my disease. Been on whey protein for years and my disease has stayed very manageable throughout my treatment. It helps that I have conceded that this will probably be with me forever if not killing me down the road. Acceptance is freeing
thats really well said.
This site man is awesome, just the other day I was recalling another gem I heard on here when we had a post complaining of SEs due to our treatments and drugs (which is aok and true). Anyways, along with all the shitty SEs we also have the best SE of still being alive. 😀
Everyone is free to try whatever diet they think will give them the best results for pca.
What I will say though, is I've yet to see anything that convinces me that plant based is better.
If you search, you'll see literally thousands of documents in favor of plant based foods. But if you dig deeper, I think you may find that they aren't based on any decent evidence. They are a series of opinion pieces, questionaires, meta analysis and the likes. Maybe I'm wrong, and if there's some that I've missed I'd welcome someone showing it. The 'evidence' I've mentioned isn't worth anything and IMO is quite misleading. But still, maybe it's there... somewhere.
I'm not saying a plant based isn't the way to go for you. Everyone is different, and if you prefer plants thats great. Just make sure your diets is well diversed because these foods are not as nutrient dense as meat based diets. I suspect it would be easier to get a deficiency somewhere if you don't diversify enough.
My recommendation for protein would be meat and/eggs not pea protein.
I'd try to eat actual foods than processed foods like powders.
Whatever you decide, I hope it works out.
Edit: FWIW, you can get pasture raised eggs in Costco for a tray for under $10. Exceptional value.
thanks. I am vegetarian so don’t do meat and eggs. Hence , the powders
Ah, can you not eat soy? I think I remember pea protein isn't a complete protein and soy is? Maybe.
If you go for soy, I'd consider using an organic brand.
I think whey is considered a complete protein. So I guess out of the two you mentioned, that would be the one I would choose.
• in reply toMrG68
You nailed it!…I’ve seen many vegan/vegetarians that aren’t any healthier than the rest of us….Moderation and exercise is the key….IMO
dhccpa• in reply to
Vegans are not necessarily on whole food plant based diets. Many eat junk foods and processed products.
I've found the WFPB diet has been great for my weight, blood pressure, glucose, cholesterol, etc., but I understand one can put together a healthy diet that isn't totally plant based.
See this new JAMA study jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...
I agree on the protein from eggs, I have never believed that the secretions from a perpetually pregnant medicated bovine can be beneficial. Remember, even human females stop lactating after a certain amount of time like all mammals
I was thinking about this the other day actually.
Women only stop lactating when they decide to stop breastfeeding. I think I'm right in saying that if they continue, they just keep creating milk for as long as the demand is there. Once it's no longer required, it dries up.
So, I assume that cows are the same? They'll just keep producing milk as long as it's being taken?
The milk is providing substances that humans might not be able to process. In fact only 10% of the population of the world can process milk. Dairy is suspected in many cancers.
Sure, I understand your concern about milk.
Is it only 10%? I was under the impression that Europeans were around 80% - depending on where in Europe they are. I read somewhere that on average, across the world, it averages out to about 35%. But I guess who really who knows. The way I look at it though, if you have the enzyme to eat it then you can. If not then you can't.
I suppose, if in doubt - leave it out. 😊
The cow's hormones (growth, sex) secretions could very well cause an adverse immune response. Northern Europeans are the only population who's DNA has evolved to process animal dairy.
Whatever supplements you take, I would avoid any which supplement Glutamine. This amino acid, together with carbohydrate is essential for cancer cell growth.
Personally, I avoid simple carbs and energy drinks etc which are loaded with these.
It's worth doing a bit of research on this...
Good luck
Yeah, this glutamine issue with cancer sort of makes my brain wobble and short circuit a bit.
Glutamine is the most abundant non essential amino acid in the body. So by its definition of non essential, your body will be able to create it, if needed.
My thoughts are - whatever you eat or don't eat, since its the most abundant and can be created, there is really no shortage of it, whatever you do. If there's a requirement for more, your body will make more. Getting it in your diet will reduce the need to make it.
Do I have that right?
If so, will attempting to reduce it really have an effect? Surely, your body will regulate it due to its need.
Maybe
I do everything I can to slow the progress of these pesky cancer cells.
Your muscles use huge amounts of glutamine when you exercise so it will be in short supply after a gym session for instance, I just avoid replacing it all with energy drinks and protein shakes after a workout....makes me feel better so why not.
whey is a perfect protein with all amino acids, especially the essential ones in the right balance. Very easily digestible. So unless your diet must exclude milk products then whey is tops IMO. No plant proteins have the complete spectrum of essential AAa without Supplementing their formula. Plant foods Are best for other areas of nutrition. And cancer doesn’t Care what we eat, it will take what it needs from any source. So eat to nourish yourself.
I use whey protein. I can appreciate those who say get your protein exclusively through food, but although my appetite remains strong in my older age, it’s definitely not what it once was and I can easily come up short on protein unless I supplement.
This is for an athletic body that burns a lot of fuel, so we’re all different of course.
I also concur that studies about diet in general are unreliable. The average American diet alone is is mostly processed food featuring lots of sugar,sodium, meat and corn in myriad forms-with a ****load of chemical additives.
Studies that use self reporting are the worst, since people tend to lie so much about what and how much they eat.
Even a modest improvement on the ‘average’ diet is fantastic. Advancing past that, as diet becomes better and better there ultimately little difference in overall health-strictly IMO.
I’m willing to bet most of the men on this forum who are worried about diet details are doing just fine.
As I always like to say, exercise is a far greater health metric than diet. Most of us in western countries simply eat too much of whatever we’re choosing, which becomes ever more consequential with age.
Hemp protein powder is an excellent plant-based source that contains all of the amino acids needed to help repair muscle cells, regulate the nervous system, and regulate brain function.
if you give 20 grams of animal protein to a human you see and boost in muscle protein synthesis shortly after. You do not get the same boost from vegetable protein presumably because it lacks certain essential amino acids. There are ways to try to get these amino acids through plants but I choose to use whey protein. My guess is vegetables are good because of fiber and quality fatty acids not amino acids although there is small amount of fat in whey protein.
Simpson80, I’m an 82 year old five year survivor G9 , started Whey Protein Isolate+ Plant Based Protein+Peanut Butter powder just 1 year ago. Works great for me , the younger guys at the gym are amazed. Take after workouts only( which is 4-5 days a week). I just started taking HMB+ Vitamin D3 to improve my recovery and just found out it also helps brain function. Some will disagree but to me “proof is in the pudding “JJ
Sounds good ! We are of similar age. Can you share what your initial diagnosis and Gleason were ? Did you do chemo ?
Simpson80, not sure my response went through so here goes, Gleason 9 very aggressive 4-5 in 9 of 12 biopsy. Both hemispheres and in right him plus other, after DX early 2019 I went Emory Atlanta and MD Anderson Houston,TX . For 2nd And 3rd testing and consultations. I am going to update my bio and tell my Five year plus journey a good read. JJ
is hmb safe for us with p/c,I have locally advanced prostate cancer
Radars, I have only been on HMB for three weeks, it is a supplement that is catching on with older men and women . I did some digging and also my wife and we didn’t find anything negative about taking HMB. I also take Creatine another good senior supplement , check it out. I’ve been on it since I went on ADT vacation and haven’t looked back . Check my bio in a couple of days and see my update.
thanks, look on canceractive Chris woolams is a bio chemist and look on hmb for prostate cancer, plus creatine increases creatinine levels.
Plant based diet is good.
But protein is just protein.
Whey based protein powder has a more balanced combination of proteins than plant based protein.
Dr. Greger, at least in 2017, offers a pretty good case for the non-cow milk alternative. Personally, I drink soy milk, eat tofu and a lot of beans and legumes.
nutritionfacts.org/video/th...
Yeah, personally I wouldn't really rely on that video for anything.If you take a look, there's a link that shows the reference sources.
nutritionfacts.org/video/th...
The ones I've checked aren't really showing anything really.
In fact some of the resources say the opposite.
For example:
#1: Results: The trial was stopped early for lack of treatment effects at a planned interim analysis with 81 evaluable participants in the intervention group and 78 in the placebo group.
#2 Changes in serum total testosterone, free testosterone, total estrogen, estradiol, PSA, and total cholesterol in the isoflavone-treated group compared to men receiving placebo were not statistically significant.
Which on the surface looks a bit strange, putting in evidence that shows the opposite.
I could be cherry picking there mind you because it was a very quick sweep without any detail. So it's possible I'm wrong, or misrepresenting them somehow.
I suggest you work through those references to see their quality before you rely on it.
I did not follow up on the references he cited, and he did point out that much of the research he cited was observational and therefore not very useful, but my take-away was his basic overview of the western study of the Adventist men and the Dean Ornish results implying that cow milk is not the best choice of nutrition for those of us fighting this disease. Dr. Greger is generally critical of any profit-based nutritional sources like dairy, mostly because the research his team digs up that is paid for by these corporate giants is biased and flawed. Personally, I eat the occasional yogurt, non-aged cheese, and enjoy ice cream, but try to avoid dairy in general for heart and general health.
20+ years ago, my wife eventually altered my 30+ years of full-fat milk consumption to 2%, then skim, then finally soy "milk" which I find pretty tasty now. Likewise from butter to soy "butter". At that time I read that the hormones in cow milk was a likely cause of prostate cancer and since my grandfather died of prostate cancer, the choice was fairly easy. Move ahead to 2022 when I was diagnosed with a large prostate full of cancer tumors (12 out of 12 G7 and G8) and I now think I probably had this disease for many, many years before diagnosis. Either by diet or dumb luck I have no metastasis yet, but I just stopped Orgovyx and Erleada 17 days ago after 2 years of ADT (along with radiation), so at this point a test and wait future and no surprise when I need to have additional treatment.
The study I think you're referring to is this one: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/101...
Here's the material and methods for it,..
Cohort
In 1976, California Seventh-Day Adventists aged 25 years and older who had been identi®ed by a Census Questionnaire in 1974 were mailed a questionnaire (the Lifestyle Questionnaire).(12). Included in this questionnaire were questions about current use of 65 food items, including soy milk. There were no questions about use of other food items known to contain iso¯avones (e.g. tofu) or about portion size. In our analysis, four consumption categories for soy milk intake were used: never, 1 time per day. Energy intake and intake of several nutrients have been estimated based on data from a dietary sub-study of 147 Adventist men and women. This study compared answers to the same questions included in the food frequency questionnaire with results from ®ve 24 hourrecalls obtained in 1974.1
This too is another questionnaire type article.
Looks like soy milk was one of the food items in the questionnaire out of 65 items.
This type of 'information' which these things are built on are sketchy at best - and I'm trying to be polite when I say that. What's worse is they get used again and again with other silmilar articles. So you end up with a LOT of these things based on the same information. Quantity certainly doesn't mean quality.
There's a long list of things I can see wrong with this. I'm not trying to discourage or influence you in any way. I'm just pointing out that IMO it's not something you should be making any decisions on.
Hope it works out for you either way.
FWIW: anectodal comment on past diet leading to my situation:
I ate roasted chicken (with skin often), and eggs daily over 15 years now until PSA went high to 18. Only beef maybe once a week for last 15 years, no constant habits of bad McDonalds or other crap fast foods. No deep fried chicken ever in 30+ years. But... maybe all the cooking oils and way too many french fries, etc before noticed 18 PSA on routine blood work, so did ultrasound and he found a 2 cm tumor 8 months ago, on peripheral one side only. Still waiting on medicare and to decide on biopsy.
I have been fairly strict for years on few milk products, coffee always black and no sugar as I am lactose intolerant, and strictly gluten free 21 years. No pizza, pies, cakes, donuts, cheesy desserts like cheese cakes and not one glass of milk since 2002, have had a few milk products, very little ice cream a few times cheeses- but mayonnaise (eggs) of course and dressings, occasionally the processed stuff- not a strict diet, but moderate IMO. Raw tomatoes daily for 10 years with 3-4 eggs fried or scrambled daily 7 days a week for breakfast. So afaik, milk products and no soy didn't prevent me from getting this. No prostate cancer family history.
PSA increased from 6 to 17 in 8 years, (now 25 last check), even now on fish/ vegan diet, limiting as much cooking oils as possible. Lost 50 lbs in the past year from changing diet 32 waist size as I was in High School. Fatty Liver (bad diet?), my thyroid is still out of whack still after months of adjusting after weight loss. My cholesterol has dropped from 240 to 150 because of dietary change and weight loss, also no longer need BP med's so point being is changing the diet helps IMO for other things like cardiovascular event prevention. Taking all the supplements recommended on my original thread suggested.
Somewhere along this PCa journey I have read that milk and egg products should be avoided or at least limited.
I have used an organic plant based protein powder for years. Does it make a difference? I can't answer that question.
Google should you avoid milk products if you have prostate cancer to get a better view of the issue.
I have been using this plant based protein powder for a few months. Can't say as it does much better than whey but it doesnt taste bad and digests well. I take it after work outs.
MRM Nutrition Veggie Elite Performance Protein | Vanilla Bean Flavored| Plant-Based Protein| Easy to Digest | with BCAAs| Vegan + Gluten-Free | Clinically Tested| Digestive enzymes | 30 Servings
MRM
I use both. truenutrition.com. You can build your own. I use whey, pea, pumpkin and rice, 1/4 each. My cancer nutritionist at UChicago said whey was fine and I am thinking of going 50/50. Military get 10% discount. I also add some greens to it.
The amino-acid profile of protein is important. Research has indicated that you need at least 2.5 grams of the amino acid leucine to initiate muscle protein synthesis (mps) to build or maintain muscle, especially at breakfast or whenever your first meal of the day is. You can get this with plant protein, but you have to generally take in more of it (amount depends on the specific plant protein mixture)
For reference: one scoop of my current whey protein has 2.5 grams of leucine (and ~24 g protein), but one scoop of my pure unflavored pea protein only has 2 grams of leucine (and ~24g protein). I've seen other plant protein mixes with less. If only pea protein, I take about 1.5 scoops to ensure that I get at least 2.5g of leucine.
All of this sturm and drang over what is the superior source of protein is really a tempest in a teacup. First of all each meal doesn't have to contain all the essential amino acids. Your body is designed to combine incomplete plant-based proteins and, although they may be, they don't need to be combined at the same meal.
Combinations include:
--Nuts or seeds with whole grains
--Whole grains with beans
---Pea protein and hemp
-As you can see by matching and mixing, there is almost an infinite number of combinations. This dependence on meat for our sources of protein is contributing to the destruction of the planet. It supplies us with many opportunities for food contamination and unwanted hormones (e.g., cows, the hormones may be added or natural—same difference). Whey is not a superior food: it is a junk food that is the by-product of cheese making!
I just had a thought actually.
If you make kefir, this seperates into curds an whey. So you basically 'feed' kefir grains that eat the sugars in the milk.
This live whey solution will be significantly better than any powder you can buy.
It will be extremely rich in probiotics and B12.
This will also allow you to control what milk you use to create the whey. You can use raw milk, which is untreated, unpasturized, not homogenised and you can have no hormones or other stuff added etc... assuming the milk source is good enough.
I think that could be an extremely cost effective and superb whey source over powders.
what about honey for prostate cancer, would that cause a recurrence.
I looked at honey a while back. There were actually a few articles around about honey being deadly to prostate cancer cells.
Thing is though, when you ingest a food, it gets broken down into things like amino acids, sugars etc. Honey does have enzymes, various vitamins and antioxidants, though I suspect that the enzymes will also just be broken down into amino acids.
So the articles I read weren't convincing to me that honey was good OR bad. I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest it can cause a recurrance. Doesn't mean thats definite, more like I havent seen anything. Maybe someone else has seen something to suggest a different view.
Honeys actually a remarkable food. You can still eat the honey that was found in the Egyptian Pharaohs tombs. It kills almost all bacteria, is great preservative and tastes amazing.
The only thing that would make me slightly cautious would be its high glucose and fructose. People believe that glucose drives PCa, but I think its worth pointing out that diets like vegetarian and vegan will create primarily glucose anyway. So if you have it in moderation I can't see why it would cause any issues. Obviously this wouldn't be true for a carivore diet.
A diet that makes me poop normal each morning.
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