I know that many men, egged on by well-meaning caregivers and sometimes doctors, deprive themselves of red meat. Some (non-Hindus) have an almost religious attachment to plant-based diets. I expect they will object to this article. For that reason, it goes into the weeds of what constitutes Internet mythology and what is evidence that should change behavior. The conclusions (for those who won't read it) are:
There is no usable evidence that cutting back on red meat is beneficial. Given the lack of convincing evidence, it is a good idea to:
• Vary one's protein sources (unless cardiologist dictates otherwise)
• Don't deprive yourself! You have cancer -- treat yourself well, at least occasionally.
• If you are on ADT, your metabolism is slower, so consume fewer calories and exercise more.
• Eat plenty of vegetables, especially cruciferous and highly-colored vegetables.
• Avoid vitamins, minerals and supplements unless you are deficient. Get your micronutrients from food. Your body will take what it needs and discard the rest. Don't try to outsmart your body -- you will lose. It has millions of years of evolution on its side.
I follow this advice with my diet. For the most part, I eat a variety of healthy foods and get some exercise every day. A healthy body is better able to fight all kinds of disease, including cancer. Life has to fun as well, so I don't deprive myself of an occasional dessert, a few drinks on the weekend, and a nice steak on the barbecue once per month. Moderation is the key.
It was Pickleball Thursday today. 90 minutes of one-on-one Pickleball then off to a local watering hole for Wings, Brisket and Hazy IPAs. Life can be Good...even with PCA.
"...Evidence is also available from specimens obtained during radical prostatectomy that AA turnover is 10 times greater in tumor tissue than it is in normal prostate tissue (7)."
"...AA-derived COX and LOX metabolites play a critical role in prostate cancer progression. In this study, we found higher levels of 12-HETE in the androgen-independent metastatic prostate cancer cells and their corresponding xenograft tissues than in the androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells. More striking was the finding that among the five AA metabolites examined, the level of endogenous 12-HETE was significantly more elevated in core biopsy specimens containing tumor than it was in those without tumor. Our results also suggest that the COX and LOX enzyme metabolic pathways are modulated differently by exogenous and endogenous AA and that this modulation may be cell type and microenvironment specific."
The time of year your beef was finished could make a difference in the amount of arachidonic acid it contains. Researchers found that the beef finished in the spring had significantly higher amounts of arachidonic acid than those finished in the fall, per a February 2020 study in PLOS One."
If you read the article, it may help protect you from the kind of Internet garbage you are quoting. To be fair, I didn't even address Level 5 evidence, which is what lab studies are. Most patients restrict their Internet searches to at least clinical studies.
Well, maybe I will change my mind based on the study and since I will refuse to be damaged by these horrible ADT treatments, maybe I should start to eat only hamburgers, fries, steaks, deep fried chicken so my exit from this horrible 🤔 PCa trap occurs earlier and maybe get a heart attack instead. One unpredictable result is stroke, which is scary but simply allowing yourself to die of a stroke or heart attack, sounds less painful that 2 years on morphine.
You are actually onto something better than your original post, albeit with the bluntest of instruments. Best to enjoy yourself!
The best diet is diverse, to which we have access unprecedented in human history. Exercise, eating less in general, and avoiding processed food are orders of magnitude more important than worrying meat consumption if it’s quality longevity you’re after.
‘Diversify your diet’ is a common maxim and a good one, but for the typical American it’s especially appropriate. Simply a good place to start. The standard American diet is unhealthy to be sure, but for far too many it’s also comprised of very few unfortunate choices.
The actual composition of a so called wide variety of processed, fast food etc is very similar, considering how it’s marketed.
Actually diversifying can make great positive differences, even inadvertently. This is the only ‘best’ I’m referring to here.
You should definitely start eating burgers, steaks and chicken (just not fried). Turkey, pork, venison and fish, too. Make sure to add animal fat to the chicken. Forget the fries as they're not food. Forget fruit, vegetables, and grains (also, not food).
We are designed to eat meat and fat. The "wide variety of foods" nonsense persists. Our bodies are made out of protein, fat, and water. Here's a crazy idea: what if we ate meat (complete protein) and animal fat, and drank water. I wonder what would happen? Excellent health, maybe?
Consuming red meat does not lead to heart attack or stroke. Consuming meat with refined carbohydrates does lead to narrowing of the arteries, heart problems, stroke.
The carbohydrates are the problem. Carbohydrate poisoning is a thing.
Is there such a thing as essential amino acids (protein)? Yes.
Is there such a thing as essential fatty acids (fats)? Yes.
Is there such a thing as essential carbohydrates? No. The small amount of carbs the body needs can be made from fat and protein.
If you want to avoid any kind of disease, eat meat, animal fat, and drink water. The best meat? Beef.
My sarcasm was true really, yes I live life and my sex life is great and I refused to get damaged by high risk treatments, I will exit stage left in my own way.
Regarding eating junk food or even fast food or restaurant or groceries- with all the GMO foods, Monsanto seeds and roundup usage, corporate farming feeding cattle chicken $hit, farmed salmon videos (ever watch those? disgusting)- I assume the entire food supply is damaged- and why so much cancers are occurring. 100+ years ago, I assume people didn't have these cancer problems, they just didn't have antibiotics, and all the other things that have saved us from childhood. My grandmother ate lard and natural fats and lived over 100 years old BY HERSELF!, died of a broken heart with my B1tch aunt sending her to a nursing home, it really was sickening.
Plenty of articles about food supply- and things like microplastics, fluoride in water, and on and on.
So I have tried to go vegan, I hate it- the vegetable thing sucks, but I want to experiment for a few months to see if my PSA maintains the level it's at until medicare kicks in and get my tax dollars to pay for tests. Then I plan on non-invasive only 3T MRI and PSMA, if they look bad- I am going on a long trip, selling it all. But before deciding if I will likely do the fusion targeted biopsy back in the states.
The way I look at this disaster is if I have 3+4 or 4+3 (Likely) I will live my life until PSA rises to some level I have not determined. If the results are 8 or 9 then I am defconing every asset, going on a long journey with one of my female companions who will get me to some end of life care center. Thanks for your comments, wishing you all the best!
This is a fantastic intervention Mr T. on the question of red meat. In our family we eat a balanced diet with a lot of wonderful salads and I eat eggs every week and we enjoy red meat!
Nevertheless I'm sometimes concerned when I see the very common phenomena as when one of our PCa community friends will share the lifestyle changes they have made in pursuit of continued health.
And it's often that people will say they have gone to a plant-based diet. And that there may be some sort of justification for this. And it even seems like there is a kind of moral high ground associated with this.
But solid research, as you have helpfully shared, says no. There's no evidence for restricting yourself from red meat. Bravo. (There may even be evidence that red meat is good for you, but we don't have to go there today.)
Restricting red meat unfortunately makes sense for those on a typical American diet. But in truth it’s the sugar, processed food and near zero intake of actual fresh fruits and vegetables which are the true culprits.
For too many, the issue is the diet they choose overall. Certainly there are much more unhealthy ‘foods’ than red meat in there.
I am happy to restrict meat because it is by far the largest contributor to climate change. The amount of forest clear cut for cattle beggars belief, and the animals are extremely inefficient at converting food to protein and they emit a lot of methane which pound for pound is so much worse than tailpipe gases.
If 7 billion humans are determined to eat the amount of meat that a Brazilian or American thinks is normal, we are all well and truly fucked. Thats just the math of it. The carcinogenic contributions of charring or processed meat are a smaller factor but not zero.
It does seem to me that culturally our species, particularly those with mass media and internet exposure(nearly everyone), is becoming more and more polarized regarding not just politics, but other issues such as climate change and even dietary preferences. And a growing inclination across the globe to be firmly and defensively ensconced in one of two or more camps of belief(s) regarding nearly any topic or issue. Such amplified rancor simply serves to distract from the very real work we humans need to be doing to raise up our standards of living and sustain them.
I think the bullet points presented by T_A here stand alone as rather balanced and overall helpful general dietary guideline for almost anyone, regardless of cancer status. His opening paragraph seems to me more related to the societal phenomenon I’ve described above, but may be more related to his level of frustration with medical ‘professionals’ who would seem to favor getting attention above scientific due diligence.
None of us are perfect; but I do think we can all serve each other better by offering our opinions and evidence with less distain expressed for those who have different viewpoints. I perceive you’ve done a fair job of it here. Congrats, and thanks for adding more context to the overall picture regarding the value of plant based dietary preference.
The biggest contributor to envronental change is beef? Really???Sorry to say that is a big load of cow dung!If you were to understand "the issues" you would know that jet airplanes high in the atmosphere emit way more CO2 than cow farts and where they emit it where they fly not on the ground
Do better research before emitting words you read without understanding
Brainwashing? Are you aware the beef industry spends a couple of billion a year on advertising to make sure you're thinking correctly? Not to mention the number of peer reviewed studies they fund through the backdoor every year or the further 100s of millions they spend lobbying (US) Congress to ensure lawmakers support their agenda.
Is it possible that you are being brainwashed? No, no...must be me falling under the mesmerizing influence of the evil Okra Lobby. Muaaa-haa-haaaaa.
"The amount of forest clear cut for cattle beggars belief, and the animals are extremely inefficient at converting food to protein and they emit a lot of methane which pound for pound is so much worse than tailpipe gases."
Brainwashing at its finest.
The amount of forest cleared for *crops* is staggering, and what is grown on that land isn't fit for human consumption. On top of that, the soil is poisoned with chemicals, and stripped of life.
The pictures in your linked "article" do not remotely represent actual beef production operations in the 21st century. Please dont reference this as research. Its not.
The complaint is about cattle being the problem so my post was about that. As to production & the environment factor in the cows being a plusThe first environmental complaint years ago was manufacturing, the electricity production, then cars & trucks. Now it's red meat. Soon other meats followed by sea food and all the boats & processing. But never airplanes and literally never about maunder minimum or long term solar cycles.
Plus don't forget in the '70's the environmental complaint was heading into the next ice age.
I think we always have to keep in mind that more than one thing can be true at the same time. Yes, 21st century beef production harms the environment. Yes, aircraft emissions harm the environment. In fact, the potential harm done by aircraft emissions is well documented. How can you say they are never part of the discussion...they certainly are.
This is a bigger discussion and far off the topic of TAs article and I shall not reply on this topic further. My final point, why is it that whenever this topic is discussed the meat folk cant make their point without claiming anyone that disagrees with them has been "brainwashed". So emotional! My position is that people should eat whatever they like and let others do the same. If you are confident beef is a healthy source of protein; by all means, enjoy!
I agree on your last f sentences.Also I do not use "brainwashed".
Some things to note however:
CO2 makeup 0.04% of the atmosphere and plants grow better with more.
As to warming of the planet; the tilt of earth changes over time as does the planets elliptical orbit. When, and they do, there are periods when we are closer and tilted towards the sun.
Add in the effect of sun spots or lack of them. There are astronomers that have tracked all these and have been able to document the results.
For starters look up Maunder cycle.
I am not saying mankind doesn't or does have influence on the environment. But am saying there is more than CO2in the mix.
oh I see. a global warming denier. Well thats an impossible ground to have an discussion on as you are denying science. Hopefully you do not bring that same anti science take into your own medical treatment as it will absolutely have negative consequences on your health.
Anytime I see someone talking about math and 7 billion people and too many cows, then I know we are not far from advocacy for not only from a plant-based diet, but consuming bugs too. And then it's not too far from there to "there are too many people". Malthusianism. The rich always think there are too many people and too many useless eaters. I know you didn't say that but it's not too hard to find hints about the burden that Mother Earth bears in the form of too many people, even in the mainstream press.
Thanks for sharing this perspective as a means of adding greater context to the discussion. And also for doing so without casting negative dispersions toward any who may be disinclined to consider the content or source as valuable/reliable!(see my reply to street-air above)
The WHO are bought and paid for mostly by Bill Gates and his fake meat, depopulation scam and the WHO shills for Klaus Schwab WEF and the "Eat bugs" scumbags in Geneva. This new Pandemic treaty takes away sovereignty of nations too. At least some smart European nations are rejecting this treaty. It's a big scam.
PC warriors need to take care of overall health, especially cardio vascular. Quoting from your text
„There is enough evidence that saturated fat, and especially trans fats, are not heart-healthy. Cardiovascular disease is about 20 times the killer of elderly men compared to prostate cancer. Most of us take statins and exercise (I hope), so the occasional rib-eye won't clog our veins, as long as we eat it only occasionally. Of course, ask your cardiologist if you've already had evidence of obstruction“
it makes sense to restrict animal product intake.
And I want to add one more reason: Current mass production of meat, including large fish farms, leads to what I call „unhealthy meat“ full of antibiotics, bacteria and stress hormones. That’s not the food I want to have in my body.
Pls note: I do eat fish, but mainly small fish from last night‘s catch from fishermen - fresh and wild fish out of the sea
Correct all the greedy corporate farms dishing out antibiotics and hormones, etc have ruined the food supply. Wild fish? lucky you, as long as far out at sea. Anyone else here might consider fish not put in farms like Shark or Dorado. Only problem there with out oceans and all fish is the mercury pollution, microplastics, etc.
Speaking for myself, my cholesterol levels were fairly bad before PCA Dx and my PCP put me on a statin. Post PCa Dx, I changed my lifestyle to a mediterranean-like diet and lots of exercise. Now 2 years on, my cholesterol #'s are totally normal sans statins.
You and your observational evidence be damned! Read TA's article! The levels of evidence!!!Anyhoo...my LDL was consistently 130 for a year and my PCP was demanding I go on statins. I made a significant dietary adjustment and LDL has been 90-95 for 2 years with toal cholesterol at ~150. Care to guess what I subtracted from my diet? 😉
Notwithstanding any social, economic or environmental arguments against meat production, my observational evidence consists of following a low carb diet relatively high in animal proteins and fats. Everything about my blood has improved. Most notably, my triglycerides were cut in half. My PCP was initially opposed to this path, but she now encourages me to continue what I am doing.
Good for you, giving up on those statins which were a another big pharma scam- the cholesterol boogey man, now recent studies like on SSRI's, and name the hundreds of experimental "pills". My total cholesterol was 240 for years, never took a statin. Losing weight and eating better now at 150.
Nice job. And, yes, you will get a lot of push back. And, a double "yes" to the idea of getting nutrients from food and not supplements...unless deficient. My uro gave me a "knee jerk" reaction re supplements and said to take vitamins, calcium, etc. He even tried to sell me on Prolia...even though my bone density was just slightly low (probably always been low?). My primary care doc did not support the uro's recommendations, btw.
It seems we're all looking for a magic bullet that will rid us of this awful disease. It's a struggle no matter what...to state the obvious. And, agree completely with observation about making sure we continue to enjoy those things that give us pleasure - like eating meat.
It's not the meat, it's what's in it. Domestic animals are fed hormones. Those hormones stay in the meat, that cannot be good for a hormone fed cancer.
Nice to hear from you ..Magnus1964. I remember you were diagnosed with metastatic prostate cancer almost 30 years ago. When I asked you a few years ago, what changes you made after diagnosis...you said "I became a vegan and started drinking many cups of Japanese Sancha Green Tea" I vividly remember that communication. Wish you a lot more years of life on plant based diet.
It’s not just the hormones, but several other issues that make the domestic livestock and fisheries products at least questionable with regard to how they affect health. Humans evolved through the hunter gatherer and subsequent agrarian modes of nutrition; but the era of factory farming and livestock management has only been going on for a very short segment of our meat, fish, and fowl eating history. Thus it’s rather early to truly understand all the details which could be having a negative impact on human health. And I agree that the use of hormones is perhaps one of the most likely detriments.
Tell you what I find bizarre. I've found, what I consider, no reasonable evidense of detrimental effects from red meat.Yes, there are a LOT of articles and opinion pieces based on questionnaires and database searches and associated statistical gymnastics but are totally void of any scientific proof of anything. Maybe there is some evidence out there that I've haven't seen. I'd certainly welcome seeing it.But when something comes up to challenge the opinions, it becomes a 'paradox' and people just accept it and brush it aside.
In my head, it doesn't square up.
One thing that amuses me though, is when you see caveman drawings where they're hunting animals, I've yet to see a drawing where they're running about with a bunch of carrots.. 🤣
"One thing that amuses me though, is when you see caveman drawings where they're hunting animals, I've yet to see a drawing where they're running about with a bunch of carrots.."
Exactly! We've evolved to eat fatty meat. Not grains, vegetables, fruits or carbohydrates.
I'm sure there's a common chemical(s) that can be found in many prostates that are known or associated carcinogens.
A few weeks before my RALP I had a huge metabolic test with vitamins, minerals, aminos and toxins. Surprisingly traces of styrene and mtbe were detected.
This may not be a clinical trial, it’s a prospective association study of 180,642 individuals free of CVD or cancer.
But it’s not an internet myth either.
Red meat consumption and all-cause and cardiovascular mortality: results from the UK Biobank study. Eur J Nutr 61, 2543–2553 (2022). doi.org/10.1007/s00394-022-...
“Compared with the lowest red meat intake (< 1.5 times/week), the highest red meat intake (≥ 3.0 times/week) was associated with a 20%, 53%, and 101% elevated risk for CVD, CHD, and stroke mortality (P for trend = 0.04, 0.007, and 0.02, respectively), but not all-cause mortality. We found that the associations between red meat intake and mortality were not modified by dietary and lifestyle factors, as well as TMAO GRS. In addition, substitution analyses showed that a decrease in red meat consumption and an increase in the consumption of poultry or cereal was significantly associated with 9%–16% lower CVD or CHD mortality risk.”
The UK Biobank study is specifically addressed there. It is Level 2 evidence. It found, "Our results suggested that intake of processed meat may increase the risk of lung cancer. These findings provided no evidence to support that consumption of processed and red meat has a large effect on the risk of other cancers we studied. Further research is needed to clarify the results."
The men that view this site have already got prostate cancer. I thought they might be interested in the other associated health risks from eating red meat.
Mine too, but get sick. Been gluten free since discovery 20 years ago, before it became a fad thing. I miss beer, started at age 15 and GF Beer mostly sucks. I bought a few Guinness a few months ago, drank just to taste and spit them out. They have ruined the recipe as have most all breweries- the mexican beers as I recall like Dos X, Negra modelo, Pacifico all taste different than when first on the market. I noticed the taste changes in the mid 1970's with mass production increases, chemical accelerators to produce more beer in shorter times.
There’s a GF-only brewery near me. Living in Vermont it’s hard to not be close to a brewery. I’ve not tried it but have heard good things about them. Don t know if they might ship their product.
That is a good plan, but I drink Woodford. And there is the Pappy VanWinkle staring at me from the shelf hahahaha. Unfortunately, for special occasions
Everything you said here jives with what I’ve learned as well. I’ll also add:
Ground or minced meet absorbs better than cuts. And is a better source of protein than vegetables.
Other than that I’ll push back on supplementation a little as I do think there is benefit in it even if it’s just a false sense of control in an otherwise uncontrollable state. I do precision supplementation through viome and I swear by it, but it is expensive. It may not justify the cost for some. I do like the confidence that my body is getting everything it needs to give myself the best chance for survival and quality of life. I do believe there is a connection to micro-biom and optimal health. These studies are in its infancy phase and with most “over the counter products” there’s a lot of marketing crap you have to wade through to find evidence based studies. I know from your postings over the years that you’ve never been an advocate of supplements, but as much as your right you are also wrong. Point is, no one really knows so it’s a personal choice. Perhaps it is just a waste of money, but what if it isn’t? Right? So I say, if you have the means and it makes you feel better at some level even if it’s just psychosomatic, than go for it. I for one will not judge you. The mind is powerful healer as well.
Lastly, I’ll say my default is the age old expression of “everything in moderation and diversify”. There’s no more natural law than that.
That assumes the "science" isn't corrupted so so many other things like it have been.
Big pharma kickbacks to 3 letter health agencies, or look at all the recent revelations of of the so called experimental injections spread worldwide. Ex NIH director Francis Collins and his cohort "I am the science" Fauci all his coverup lying. With clowns like that in charge- how can anyone maintain trust? The "Excessive deaths" that life insurance actuaries presented don't lie. No explanation for the causes.
Finally, a sensible post regarding "Diet", I believe sudden dietary changes (because we've been diagnosed with cancer), are more harmful, than they are beneficial. Instead of a "Die-it" adopt a "Live-It" program. Your body (and mind) will thank you.
Its a nice thought to be a vegan bc I love animals but in reality its flawed bc we have evolved over thousands of years from consuming meat My husband has red meat approx once every 1 - 2 weeks he has a lot of fish plus some chicken maybe once a week also occasional sausage or bacon plus vegan meals which he isnt keen on - he likes traditionall meat based meals.
The best thing my husband has done imo is give up cows milk - he has soya milk now I have been on soya milk for decades.
When my husband has any meat he has a lose dose asprin - 75mg - to counter the anarachic acid
Have you considered the proportional duration of factory livestock and fisheries management relative to the total number years humans have consumed meat and fish? And how a corresponding rise in the occurrence of cancer in populations where such farming practices have become more dominant might have some relevance? Maybe it’s not so much the meat per se, but rather how it’s ’brought’ to our tables.
I totally agree with you , I try to buy free range chicken and outdoor bred pork etc I am v concerned about animal welfare and hate factory farming Do you consume cows milk ? I don't
We keep our animal products intake very limited and, like you, are particular about the source when we do indulge. Also avoid highly processed plant based foods. I’ve found oat milk to be far more satisfying than the bovine variety.
We have soya milk, I made a fabulous mushroom sauce today using soya cream and milk instead of dairy it was so easy I'm going to make dauphinoise potatoes with soya cream next
Of course it’s purely based in observational data analysis, and correlation isn’t necessarily causation; but, as the authors suggest, further study would seem to be warranted:
“In this cohort study of 2062 men with prostate cancer, higher intake of plant foods after prostate cancer diagnosis was associated with lower risk of cancer progression. These findings suggest nutritional assessment and counseling may be recommended to patients with prostate cancer to help establish healthy dietary practices and support well-being and overall health.”
Yes, in fact that "internet garbage" was what motivated me to write the article. A medical researcher friend sent it to me to show me how myths take root and get perpetuated. Doctors are prone to it too. Some of those who write such garbage use it as a quick and dirty way to get published, but some are "true believers."
Then there are those unfortunate individuals who couldn't find or remove Lone Star ticks soon enough and developed alpha gal syndrome. Now for us, there no longer is a choice: all meats from mammals have to be avoided. One can be tested after a few years to see if this allergy has subsided. A special blood test is required. Rechallenging with red meat is cheaper but riskier. Personally, I never want to have that pain again and where I live there is a constant risk of more tick bites.
the only reason we cut back is that red meat is higher in fat and after starting to gain weight on Lupron tried to be conscious. His BMI is just within normal range but still don’t use it for various reasons. Fat content, of course, but finding more economical sources of protein.
as a 34 year stage C rectal survivor with metastatic disease (2x lung 30 + 31 years ago) and a BS in Animal Science (minor in animal nutrition), I always believed exactly what you are preaching! My mantra has always been…”Show me the Science…”!
Red meat is a great source of many good vitamins.I don't see the point of depriving oneself of red meat.I would suggest that when consuming red meat that we buy good quality grass fed and organic produce if you are able to afford it.Avoid processed red meat products , (sadly that often means no hamburgers haha).It is easy when we are feeling vulnerable to over react to internet bs.Lots of the research refers to plant based diets but does not address diets which include lots of plant based products mixed with red meats.An example comes to me as a UK citizen , a good sunday roast dinner where a meal will consist of 2 thirds vegetables and 1 third meat.
I wonder when was it we were told meat and eggs along with dairy are bad for PC. Was it around the same time cattle and chickens were being destroyed and farms being shut down . Look what is going on in Europe with the farmers. All the while telling us eat plant based meat and bugs. Heads up cricket flour label as acheta powder is showing up as an ingredient in our food. For me did cut out egg yolks and dairy but do put a dash of cream in coffee. As far as meat I will enjoy local farm raised grass feed burger maybe 2 times a month, Right now I am on prolonged fast it's day 6 hoping to do 21 days or more - Wanna talk about being deprived - my wife decided to bake herself cookies the other day what a Rodney Dangerfield moment it was. wish me luck folks, lol Best to all
Hang on I'm not there yet, lol right now day 7. last time I caved in at day 10. But any fasting is beneficial so they say. You want to achieve autophagy from my research. I read that you can eat ( while fasting ) raw broccoli and cauliflower without ruining the fast infact it increases autophagy, I would think moderate small portions once a day. Also zero calorie fermented sauerkraut and pickles in small amounts can be consumed to maintain gut biome, water fast purist say no food at all. Lettuce is also fast friendly . I also have a MoJo meter to measure my blood glucose/ ketones levels .
I have not approached this yet, but its on my list. I am fortunate in that I can go an entire day without eating and not feeling hungry, this was pre DX too.
You mention below exercise. But how much exercise on a fast can even be achieved? Do you add electrolytes to your water?
I am sure every ones situation is not the same. But to generalize, for me I find peak periods of the day energy levels are optimum. some days are slugish. A lot of people claim more energy atleast the first 3 days . I don't do heavy extreme exercise, moderate weights , and stay active with garden and work around the house. You can not stop eating for to long but for me fasting is like a body reset, cleaning process. Autophagy and ketosis are the benefits, metabolic state. I'm just poking and hoping ( praying ) doing what may help . Had to add a big yes on electrolytes and mineral supps also drink Ultima brand electrolyte drink powder good taste no sugar like the orange, lemon and cherry pomegrante. also Fulvic Humic Acid ionic trace mineral by Age Immune ( Amazon )
I was doing fasting 2 years ago when I was first diagnosed with high volume metastatic stage 4 PCa - the longest I did was 60 hours. And I did great. And my wife and I have read quite a bit and notice the energy boost one typically gets after a day or two. And it's not so hard really.
However I suffer from fatigue now, although thankfully hardly any other symptoms. And I read that there may be reasons not to fast when one is trying to live with metastatic PCa and not trigger resistance etc etc. Exercise is key of course!
Would love to know some good science or studies about fasting and such circumstances, plus or minus.
Klaus and his pals will be proud. So maybe dogs and cats might be added to the list since they consume too much meat- according to the Davos scum.
"...Switching to pet food that contains insect protein is an important way you can make a real impact on the environment. Dogs and cats currently consume one quarter of the meat that is produced in the U.S.
There are so many ways to reduce your carbon footprint in food consumption, and they don't require you to eat crickets for breakfast, but as the saying goes, "Don't knock the chocolate-covered scorpion until you've tried it."
My cats are currently consuming one quarter of the meat produced in the U.S. They are ignoring the insects in my back yard. There are no more birds or rodents in my neighborhood. Damned serial killers.
Unfortunately, Stacey Loeb (author of both) is far from reliable on this topic. I've tried writing to her, but so far, no response. If you actually read the article, you will understand why the stuff you linked to is just more Internet garbage.
If you troubled yourself to understand medical science, you might not take it as personally. If you want to understand medical science, and not just confirm your biases, you may want to read this too:
Would you suggest that going on a Carnivore diet to lose that belly fat we gain while on ADT is going to far in the other direction and might negatively impact on us guys with PC?
I have been on this diet many years ago and I can certainly testify to the fact that it does work. But you would only want to be on it for a few weeks max.
I'm not a fan of fad diets. Even the losses of intermittent fasting are hard to sustain. Slowly lowering caloric intake while increasing exercise may be more sustainable. One man in my support group swears by Oziempic, but I honestly have not looked into it.
Did I say there is something good about that article? No, I didn’t. I do believe we should be free to read what we like, draw our own conclusions, and have our decisions respected. What I see here is bullying and disrespect of individuals and their decisions . Why is that?
Sorry but that comment was not directed at you. I very much appreciate how you framed the question in a very kind and respectful manner. There are some other people, one in particular, who shouldn’t be here because of their rude and offensive nature. Completely violates the rules in that regard.
I’m sorry that you thought I was aiming that comment at you because it was not. Thanks for raising the point. Hope this helps answer the question.
The Adventist health study of 96000 individuals suggested health and disease benefits of diets that were low in meat or included no meat. The blue zones identified areas of longevity and identified diets and lifestyles that were common in those populations, typically also low in red meat. Neither were studies that TA would accept with levels of evidence, but both show long term benefits in large populations of people. Each may warrant consideration.
Science is not to be worshiped, it's to be questioned continuously. Particularly today when scientific and educational institutions are corrupted by corporate profits.
Science includes a skeptical approach - that all results are provisional and subject to future correction. Newton thought gravity was a force in 1666, which was believed to be true until Einstein proved it wasn't in 1915. Skepticism is required, but cynicism and wacky conspiracy theories have no place in science.
For erecting partitions at right angles, any builder all over the world uses the 3-4-5 method. Also known as Pythagoras, has been constantly in use the latest 2500 years. This is science in my book. Docs reshuffling the deck every 5-10 years, is MonteCarlo in my book.
Your New World "always" may extend max to the time when general Custer was chasing Indians. The Greek language goes way-way deeper in time. And the entropy of the Greek language doesn't leave any leeway for ambiguous meanings like "ship sinks today". Επιστήμη (science) is a composite word made from the preposition επί and the noun of the verb ισταμαι, meaning standing on top , aka, knowing what to do, in short, knowledge. It doesn't mean going round in circles trying and failing. There are other words for the latter.
The wonderful thing about science, as it continues to evolve since the Scientific Revolution in the 16th Century, is that no one person decides anything. Instead, there are hermeneutic principles that everyone has access to. Such principles include that only potentially testable hypotheses (provable or falsifiable) are allowed, that higher levels of evidence replace lower levels of evidence, violation of rules of statistical inference is not allowed, findings must be peer-reviewed, and that all knowledge is provisional.
Pseudoscience violates the hermeneutic principles of science:
Good study review, thank you. I especially liked it because it supports my own bias.
About forty years ago a study was published in The New England Journal of Medicine:
a professor at UC San Francisco did a study where she gave a group of medical students a copy of a research paper where she pasted in the methods section from a completely different and unrelated research article. If one read that section it was obviously unrelated to the study discussion and conclusions. Not a single student picked that up because they didn't bother reading the methods. Thus the comment that doctors should know better makes sense.
Yours is the best advice yet. So-called red meat is a valuable source of many food values. It is desirable to remove as much of the visible fat as possible and revel in the taste, texture, and protein. Thank you. I made a pot of Great Northern beans yesterday with a ham shank included. The meal was both delicious and nutritious. The ham was pretty red.
Comorbidities abound with those of us on ADT. It is important to be aware of them and to adjust lifestyle to mitigate them.
One of the common comorbidities is cardio vascular disease/atherosclerosis. Those who have it MUST avoid saturated fat, whether a chocolate bar, red meat or chicken thighs. No ice cream or cream in your coffee either.
And exercise like it going out of style.
Red meat is good and nutritious for everyone else.
I use to visit a steak house here in Vegas and love prime meats cooked to perfection.
And those juicy thick burgers on the grill at home.
But it all came to an end when my kidneys got damaged. Meat proteins are difficult on damaged kidneys so I eat 90% less. Funny but now I crave fruit Strawberries, peaches, fresh mandarin oranges. Meat is never on my mind at this stage in my life. Thought being a vegetarian was ridiculous. But somehow someway I’ve become one not of my choosing but my body just doesn’t crave that meat any longer. I’m personally happy with my present food intake.
I couldn’t agree with you more. I think everything in moderation. Prostate Cancer patients are already in such a battle that taking one more piece of their joy is cruel. My husband was diagnosed as type 2 about 10 years ago. At that time we were able to manage it with diet and exercise. Since being on chemo he had to start taking meds.
The best piece of advice we got was from a diabetic nurse. Make your diet from the outer perimeter of the store. Eat things that come from a plant that grows from the ground not from a plant with a smoke stack. We eat a low saturated fat diet but occasionally cheat with a burger or steak. Lots of stir fry with small portions of rice or noodles. We think of meat as a side dish and the veggies the focus.
Our oncologist is on the plant based approach so much he missed my husband’s serious side effects of Neutropenic fever and tachycardia from chemo. He was so focused on telling him to eat plants he overlooked all these other things that were killing him. He literally was telling him to eat raw vegetables when a Neutropenic diet prohibits it. He had to be hospitalized for a run away infection and his advice was to stay home and eat plants Thank god we have a great GP and smart infusion nurses that got him hospitalized and into a cardiologist. We are now seeking care from another oncologist.
Given that red meat generally refers to beef and that 90% of all beef consumed is feed lot beef...we know those cattle are pumped full of hormones (you cant achieve 18 month slaughter weight without growth hormone) and a measurable portion of those cows' diet is prophylactic administration of antibiotics; I will continue to avoid this protein source.
So true. In many cases the evidence is only observational, in others they are looking to pre-determined end. In my case my Oncologist and a Dietitian Oncologist I consult both told me to up my meat intake as I bounce on the anemia line. I have had that problem all my life. Red meat offers a more biologically available level of iron. I eat plenty of fruits and vegetables in great variety. Too many times I see people following advice that is not fully backed by verifiable science. Yes, it's important to eat balanced, maintain healthy blood levels in tests, but there is no magic bullet that suddenly makes it all right, prevents all, or delivers some result.
It is culmination and as several researchers I've talked to in the past 6 years have said, "We have no related causation for prostate cancer. Every case studied appears to have its own individual characteristics. You can reduce risk with adjustments to diet, environment, stress and other variables, and therefore you may be pre-destined. However, you are not pre-determined."
I disagree wholeheartedly with the supplement statement as well as millions of years of evolution. The fallacy of course is, supplements beyond whole foods is a waste, while we continue to search a better ADT drug cocktail.
It's only been a few decades since the ADT correlation was made WRT PC. Meaning, whether you believe in evolution (millions of years) or Young Earth Creationism (6-10k years) , the male body has not righted itself to deal with PC. In other words, as an example, evolution has not mitigated hot flashes on its own. Yet there are natural supplements which can reduce HFs..
Yet, another example is high dose melatonin for those opting for any radiation treatment. There is evidence supporting melatonin in high dosages may help reduce the damages done by radiation.
In summary, supplementation may have a strong place in our lives. While I agree, using whole foods to meet the body's nutritional requirement is a preferred choice. Unfortunately, the average diet falls way short of meeting the minimum requirement.
If you do plan on ditching supplements, I strongly suggest the use of a nutrition tracker. Specifically a tracker that monitors macro nutrients.
If one doesn't follow the science, one might as well consult a witch doctor. It is not easy to learn the science, but it is better than making possibly dangerous mistakes by taking unproven and possibly unsafe drugs, labelled as "supplements."
I hate supplements. I got sucked into it when I was first diagnosed but realized later it was all not effective at allllllllllll in controlling the disease or slowing it down. Unless someone is deficient in something, in my opinion, no supplements are necessary.
All the TV adverts about these "exciting" "new" food products, they end up in the "Ready made meals" aisles in Tescos, Morrisons, Sainsburys, etc, [full of additives, and supplements😵😲🥺😱]
Im pretty sure my Oncologist is not a witch but I suppose one can never be sure! She suggested I take a regular Vitamin D supplement which has corrected my D deficiency and brought it into the reference range. Apparently it is quite difficult for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere to ever get enough Vitamin D from exposure to sunlight . So short of relocating to Oz or SSA I suppose its going to have to be a daily supplement. Hope I survive it.
Taking a D3 supplement will have some effect. For example you will get increased calcium absorbtion. Maybe that's why you need to take it?
But, from what I've read, for your body to create D3 naturally from UV, there is a series of processes and reactions that you don't get if you supplement. So yes, you'll see your blood work markers go up to some desired range, but you'll miss out on the other benefits.
For example, your cholestrol and D3 get sulfated due to sunlight exposure. This will make the D3 water soluble. The supplement will be fat soluble. This will make the D3 much more effective.
If I remember right, cholesterol sulfate also protects you from sun burn.
Also, your body will be able to regulate the level of D3. A supplement will bypass all that.
Will it be enough of a difference for you to have a deleterious effect? I don't know.
But I do know that I'd rather do it without supplementation if possible since it's how you're supposed to get it as opposed to a pill.
You can always buy a sun lamp. Ask your oncologist to see if she has any objections to that.
There are many, many studies that show eating a plant based diets is beneficial to those with prostate cancer. It cracks me up that so many men relate eating meat or beef to their manhood, lol. I spent my 20's through 40's body building, eating over 200 grams of protein a day, eggs, tuna, dairy, beef, chicken, protein drinks, you name it. Bam, age 49 I'm dx'd with stage 4a, G8 cancer!
As a few have stated here, it's most likely not the animal proteins themselves at this point, but the amount we ingest and the QUALITY....there are so many hormonal disruptors, why do we think we're seeing men in their 30's and 40's being diagnosed with advanced prostate cancer?!?
Asia never had large cases on PCa until the last few decades....hmmm, I wonder what might have changed, diet perhaps?!?!
Diet absolutely impacts this disease!
I started eating a more whole food, plant based diet. I still have meat and cheese when I want it, but limit my consumption. I'll eat eggs from our chickens, as they free range and are only fed organic foods. I drink only nut based milks. I juice daily and avoid processed foods and sugar. Honey is my go to sweetener.
I've also been on TRT for the last two plus years and I'm doing amazing, PSA stands at 1 and I'm currently NED.
Pretty ironic since my first Rad Onc told me I "might" have 3-5 years left in 2018.
All I can say is, I've change my diet, lifestyle and I'm injecting T weekly.....have never felt better.
No, I'm, sure he got that bit. I think though, that yes there may be many studies for plant based diets, but they are of extremely poor quality.
I could be wrong, but I've yet to see anything that convinces me that meat is deleterious so you should eat plant based diets. Nearly all are based on some questionnaire type study which, IMO, is scientifically useless.
Do you have any studies that are not questionnaire based or database searched? I'd like to take a look because I haven't been able to find any with any credable data. If not, no worries.
Very nice post and lots of information, As we are all different we probably respond differently to different diets. I think that my prostate cancer loves me cause it's been hanging around for 27 years. Sugar is supposed to be bad for cancer and I've eaten more coconut cream pies, chocolate cream pies, apple pies, ice cream etc. than ten people. I eat meat, fresh fish, shrimp and lobsters. I have a friend that has an apple orchard and he is ready to spray the buds on his trees with a chemical that has cross bones on the container. i believe that he sprays 3 times before the apples are picked and the apples will look really nice and they won't have any worms. When I was a kid we used to pick apples and usually they we somewhat deformed and you had to be careful when you took a bite because the apples had worms. You won't find any worms in apples today because of what is sprayed on them. If you're on a plant based diet you better grow your vegetables because lots of them are grown in countries that still use pesticide. This is only my personal opinion and it's not meant to change anyone's mind.
Thanks. I should probably write another article about the Internet garbage surrounding sugar. I hope that GMOs will eventually obviate the need for pesticides.
“Avoid vitamins, minerals and supplements unless you are deficient.” Thanks a lot, “Party Pooper”! I just discarded a container of NAC. However, after perusing this article, I’m relieved I did so.
You had me until the last bullet point. Supplements have been very good for my heart health and brain health in addition to potentially suppressing prostate cancer. Magnesium, CoQ10, L-Arginine, Taurine, Iodoral 12.5 mg (iodine), Glucosamine-Chondroitin, Green Tea extract, vit K2, Acetyl L-carnitine ... the list goes on.
Meat protein is valuable. The body helps manufacture vit B12 from it. You don't want to be deficient in B12.
Hi eddie, when you take supplements, as I do, there is a very high burden on one for research. Our friend here Max highlighted for me sometime ago the concern about Taurine. Which I was taking for a while. But there are some seemingly decent quality papers suggesting that Taurine could be a risk for people with metastatic prostate cancer. I stopped taking it.
Hi Mr. G. I can't find MaxOne's original comment. So I started looking again for the articles; I can't find where I stored them. During my search is just now I did come across lots of material that was very positive about taurine against metastatic prostate cancer. But here is just one item that I originally turned up after the suggestion and that caused me concern:
One can also find articles that say the opposite. In this case I've decided to be better safe than sorry. There are so many complex pathways regarding prostate cancer prevention!
I am not sure it was taurine, I have surely posted my concerns about creatine when you are metastatic to the bones. But about that we should have data available soon!
Overloading the gut with one amino acid can prevent absorption of other amino acids. It never ceases to amaze me that patients, who have no understanding of biochemistry, self-medicate, having no idea what they are actually doing to themselves. Lab studies are not clinical studies and should never be used to guide patient therapy.
This stream is fascinating, 143 replies so far !! InternetGarbage is the buzzword of the day! I actually appreciate hearing so many perspectives on one topic on a single web page. I would share the stream with my Vegan friend but I know better.
I commend you for all of your hard work and information that you put on this board. It is extremely helpful, informative, and a repository of invaluable information that otherwise would not be readily available to prostate cancer patients. I'm not sure how you manage to keep up on the subject.
However, diet is one thing I do know something about. There are numerous studies that have been done regarding overall health and diet in terms of longevity, and morbidity from chronic disease, including some implications for prostate, breast, and ovarian cancers. Dean Ornish MD, at UCSF, Caldwell Esselstyn MD, Cleveland Clinic, among others, have demonstrated that it is possible to prevent, and even reverse atherosclerotic heart disease through whole food plant based diets. Red meat, and any other meat for that matter, is full of saturated fat and cholesterol that promotes and is causational to atherosclerosis.
Ornish has done some interesting work and published some of it regarding prostate cancer and diet. Ornish - American Urology Association, The Journal of Urology auajournals.org/doi/10.1097...
The same can be said of Type 2 diabetes. Dr. Neal Barnard with the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine has published work on this subject. Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine has published research and data at their site - PCRM.org.
Dr. Michael Gregor maintains a non profit site where he summarizes and links research on the subject of health and disease related to nutrition - nutritionfacts.org . Here are some links to PCa and diet: Impacts of Plant Based Diets on Breast Cancer and Prostate Cancer - youtu.be/Yp-L-f3IiCI
Dr. Kim A. Williams, past president of the American College of Cardiology, recommends a whole food plant based diet. Even the politically sensitive American College of Cardiology says this about red meat in its published recommended dietary guidelines - " There is a direct association between red meat intake and CVD incidence and mortality, and an even stronger association for processed meat such as bacon or hot dogs." acc.org/latest-in-cardiolog... as taken from the 2021 American Heart Association Dietary Guidance for Cardiovascular Health ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161...
All cancer, including PCa, is problematic, and diet alone may not resolve the issue, especially once it gets started. But, diet has been shown to affect cancer, and can have huge benefits in other chronic conditions that affect patient morbidity in terms of overall health and survival. It stands to reason, the best way to fight cancer is to be in the best overall health possible, without complications from other chronic disease i.e. heart, type2 diabetes, etc.
Patients.— Forty-eight patients with moderate to severe coronary heart disease were randomized to an intensive lifestyle change group or to a usual-care control group, and 35 completed the 5-year follow-up quantitative coronary arteriography.
Can I just ask, in this context as a 'usual-care control group':
In contrast, patients in the usual-care control group made more moderate changes in lifestyle, reduced LDL cholesterol levels by 6%, and had a 165% increase in the frequency of reported anginal episodes. Average percent diameter stenosis progressed from 42.7% to 46.1%.
How do you know that the changes introduced in the control group didn't have an impact?
So, aren't you effectively changing the control group to include more potential confounding issues.
Are you able to determine what these changes in ligestyle and LDL cholesterol alterations were?
Maybe I missed it, but what exactly are we measuring against?
I mean you could read into that as if I reduce my cholesterol levels by 6%, I could have a 165% increase in anginal episodes.
A registered dietitian was available for nutrition education and counseling. A nurse case manager contacted patients by telephone once weekly for the first 3 months and once monthly thereafter. Control group patients were asked to follow the advice of their physicians regarding lifestyle changes. All therapeutic decisions, including whether to undergo conventional treatment during the study course, were deferred to the personal physician of each patient.
So, they telephoned them once a week then once a month and asked to follow the advice of their physicians?
What was the advice of their physicians wrt lifestyle changes and conventional treatments?
How can you deduct anything from that?
Maybe some told them to eat ice cream with coconut flaked toppings. Maybe some advised pushups on their finger tips - Bruce Lee Style....
All of which, BTW, I'm in favor of - I find Bruce Lee films quite motivating - epsecially Enter the Dragon when he fights Chuck Norris.
Thinks...: hhhhmmmm maybe, just maybe its possible watching Enter the Dragon creates a positive effect on wellbeing and the immune system - so indirectly fight prostate cancer.
Yet another one of those funny Chuck Norris comical anecdotes we all love: Chuck Norris is so tough that the mere thought of fighting him was enough to defeat prostate cancer...
TA. You are so wise. As a new person on the post and an older person in life I respect t what you have to say. I am on Zuniga and pred and every 3 months Lupron since may 2024. Dcx with prostate ca with Mets to bone. Psa was 300 when found and first blood draw showed psa 18 and then 4. All phos remained at 1500. Dodgy down from 1650 but that’s it. Any suggestions. Thank you
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