Are eggs bad for PCa, round 2 - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer
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Are eggs bad for PCa, round 2

rpol
rpol
36 Replies

A couple of months ago, this title was linked to an article in menshealth. This got the discussion off to a bad start. Here is a better link to a paper published in 2012:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

The study was not small, the first sentence of results reading

"In the incidence analysis, we observed 695 lethal prostate cancers during 879,627 person-years. Men in the highest quintile of choline intake had a 70% increased risk of lethal prostate cancer."

Several papers are referenced in a video

nutritionfacts.org/video/eg...

Choline is high in eggs, also red meat and poultry.

What do our experts think of these studies? I've already given up most red meat (dairy, etc). Must I now give up eggs and poultry as well, which we eat a lot in our household?

36 Replies
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DeanNelson

Just my opinion, but I will not give up ANYTHING else to this effing beast, it will NOT take any more from me than what it already has. I love ALL "real" fresh foods and enjoy cooking and sharing meals.

15 likes
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Kiwidave
Kiwidave
in reply to DeanNelson

with you on that 1oo per cent Dean

4 likes
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Fanger1
Fanger1
in reply to DeanNelson

🥩🍗🐟 All in moderation

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teamkv

I hear you and am wondering about this myself. I have heard that the yolk is where the choline is so you could do just egg whites. We are eating mostly org veggies, with a lot of seeds, nuts and fish several times a week.. we live in the Pacific Northwest though so fish is a little easier to come by. Once a month we might do organic chicken breast with no skin. And small portions of meat. No dairy or red meat. I feel better than ever and my husband looks better than ever. Not sure how much it does for the PC but I know our bodies and what we put into them makes a difference. Press on, friend.

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Tall_Allen

"Postdiagnostic choline intake was NOT statistically significantly associated with the risk of lethal prostate cancer"

7 likes
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teamkv
teamkv
in reply to Tall_Allen

Sorry if this is a dumb question, what does ‘Post diagnostic choline‘ mean? After diagnosis?

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DeanNelson
DeanNelson
in reply to teamkv

yes AFTER dx.....eat all the eggs you want

4 likes
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cesanon
cesanon
in reply to Tall_Allen

"Postdiagnostic choline intake was NOT statistically significantly associated with the risk of lethal prostate cancer"

Allen, why do you think that might be?

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Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to cesanon

It takes a lifetime before the effects of diet have an influence on the development of cancer. The initial development of cancer may have a completely different biology from the biology of the spreading of cancer that is already there. Choline is ubiquitous in every food we eat (it is part of the cell wall of every plant and animal). I doubt that there is any effect of choline even in the pre-diagnostic setting - and studies like this are notorious for selection bias.

8 likes
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rpol
rpol
in reply to Tall_Allen

that rings true. Thanks

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rpol
rpol
in reply to Tall_Allen

Tall_Allen, I have thought long and hard about how to reply to this comment. Long ago I too majored in maths and stats. I get mad at people who always slag off statistical conclusions (you are NOT one of them of course). But we, with PCa, are clutching at straws to keep ourselves alive. Something may not meet a 95% confidence condition, but it can be suggestive enough to be worth trying. In this case "men in the fifth quintile of post-diagnostic choline had a risk of lethal prostate cancer nearly 2-fold that of men in the lowest quintile". Eggs are high in choline. So maybe I should cut down on my egg intake of 3-5 a week.

I am struck too by the opposite response when I posted recently about my cancer becoming mCRPC, with stats for OS becoming much worse. Then most responders said "ignore the stats, you are an individual" and I realized that I must indeed BELIEVE that I can outlast OS predictions. And I really DO believe that I can last more than the 12 months OS stats predict. That can of course be squared with belief in stats if I am far down the tail of the distribution, probably because I am doing enough to take myself out of the population on which the stats were calculated.

So, fellow sufferers, my personal belief now is that stats are a guide only. If something looks promising, try it. Take control. Personal belief that you are helping yourself is key, as so much of one's ability to keep PCa at bay is in the mind. It may be a placebo, but if it helps, who cares.

5 likes
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Tall_Allen
Tall_Allen
in reply to rpol

There are two major limitations of research and statistics (there are many more):

1. They never predict for the individual

2. They are subject to limitations of design

In this case, the stats tell us that for men, like yourself (who already have prostate cancer), there was NO difference in survival of prostate cancer whether they took in more choline or not. While the fifth quintile had a higher risk of lethal PC, so did the second quintile (Table 5) - so there is no dose effect. A dose effect is one of the clues that there is a real relationship and not just a statistical oddity.

This is an observational study and highly subject to selection bias. In other words, the men who used more choline are constitutionally different from the men who used less. For example, the men in the first quintile may eat more broccoli (or whatever), or they may be more health conscious, run 5 miles a day, etc. A multivariate analysis is only as good as the variables they select to include.

2 likes
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rpol
rpol
in reply to Tall_Allen

good points. I hadn't spotted the second quintile value. Thank you.

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Hirsch

once you have been diagnosed with APC , reasonabe amounts of choline have no effect

on risk of APC..

1 like
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gourd_dancer

Load of crap! Had to discuss with my MO. What does your MO say?

GD

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900312611

Taken from Google search, and if I understand Tall Allen, once you have PCa it won't make it worse:

t is involved in healthy liver function, nerve function, and muscle movement, as well as supporting energy levels and maintaining a healthy metabolism. One of the primary functions of Choline is helping brain cells in the production of acetylcholine, a key neurotransmitter for mental focus and learning. The nutrient is a precursor to the brain chemical acetylcholine, which plays a key role in memory and other cognitive functions; low acetylcholine levels are associated with Alzheimer's. ... and research in rats has found that Choline supplements tend to improve memory

1 like
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Litlerny

I’m with DeanNelson. IMHO, I don’t think an occasional egg will make a lot of difference. If you eat a huge omelet made with 3 eggs and cheese every morning you might want to think about cutting down on your egg consumption, and probably have other issues worse than choline to worry about. If you worry about the choline in the yolks try Egg Beaters (they’re great, but I still haven’t figured out how to make a hard boiled Egg Beater), or another egg white substitute for whole eggs.

3 likes
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EdBar

Nuts, fish, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, spinach just to name a few all contain significant amounts of choline so there's probably no avoiding it in your diet. However a diet of lean proteins and veggies is heart healthy which is especially important if you are on long term ADT.

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CalBear74

My answer after researching this subject one year ago is yes. Go whole plant foods and use Dr. Greger's downloadable phone app "Daily Dozen" to guide your plant food choices. It offers hundreds of possibilities.

Overall, whole plant food/nutrition evidence as you have probably seen is overwhelming. I am amazed by the number of men in denial about self-destructive food choices they admit to. They will cherry pick a study because it confirms a specific food bias. Such is the power of your familial food culture.

You can find substitutes for almost all foods that you once considered essential. I have even found a vegan ice cream with the funny name of "NADA MOO".

2 likes
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teamkv
teamkv
in reply to CalBear74

I will look for the app. Thank you and I agree. Food strikes an emotional cord in EVERYONE. I do like to cook and have been doing it from scratch for years so for us the transition is fairly easy. I do veggies stir fried in a wok, spaghetti noodles made from zucchini in a doodle machine, portabella mushrooms feel like meat in your mouth or roasted veggies with fish on the top. Lots of salads and lots of nuts. Occasionally skinless organic chicken breast. We also do the flax meal, flax oil, organic cottage cheese mixture. That’s the only dairy we do. Mix this with some sliced organic white peaches, unsweetened coconut shreds, and a few fresh raspberries and a tiny drizzle of honey on the top. It tastes like cheesecake TBH. Plus I have a champion juicer so org. Carrot, beet, celery and apple pretty much everyday. (Celery juice lowers blood pressure btw). His blood tests are now better than they have been. Used to be overweight, increasing blood pressure every year and prediabetic numbers as well. Colesterol numbers are way down too. It all may not be clear on any double blind studies, however it seems to have helped him and it gives me a way to contribute. Quite a few supplements too, including BIRM.

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j-o-h-n

You don't have to give up eggs but make sure when you boil them don't swallow the whole egg, shell and all.. you'll choke to death...

Good Luck and Good Health.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/06/2018 6:47 PM EDT

5 likes
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Lulu700
Lulu700
in reply to j-o-h-n

Cool hand Luke!

4 likes
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j-o-h-n
j-o-h-n
in reply to Lulu700

But he cheated... he peeled off the shells... And finally put them in his salad dressings.

Good Luck and Good Health.

j-o-h-n Thursday 09/06/2018 10:08 PM EDT

3 likes
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SPEEDYX
SPEEDYX
in reply to j-o-h-n

And 2 hard boil eggs

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j-o-h-n
j-o-h-n
in reply to SPEEDYX

I just ordered a chicken and an egg from Amazon. – I’ll let you know.

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 08/03/2019 9:40 PM DST

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ITCandy
ITCandy
in reply to j-o-h-n

I wonder which one will come first?

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j-o-h-n
j-o-h-n
in reply to ITCandy

I put my money on the Rooster..... males always do....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Saturday 08/03/2019 9:45 PM DST

3 likes
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ITCandy
ITCandy
in reply to j-o-h-n

Too funny!

1 like
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Lulu700

The consensus in no.. Good for me too. Over easy please..?. Just not a dozen a day like my farmer relatives the McDonald’s, pig farmers in Iowa. Distant cousins but the boys would get up before dawn eat a dozen eggs a quart of milk , half a loaf of wonderbread ,and a lot of bacon. Saw this as I visited the “ol McDonald’s farm” over fifty years ago as a young boy of 5... Never forget how much they ate and how hard they worked. Don’t know how those cousins fared or if they’re still alive.. I doubt Both if they continued that diet past 22 years old..

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WSOPeddie

I'm just getting up to speed on the warnings about chicken and eggs. Here's an article that spells it out:

prostate.net/health-centers...

I am left with the question: what the hell is left for me to eat? Not ready to go vegan. I'll try and lighten up on some of the 'danger' foods but I doubt that I could avoid them altogether.

1 like
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jdm3
jdm3
in reply to WSOPeddie

Broccoli for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Maybe we can splurge and have a carrot every now and then.

I think this list of foods is true for health in general. Everything in moderation - especially the foods like french fries that we know aren't the best. All things considered though, I do minimize my egg intake, avoid dairy, processed meats, and sugar. Nevertheless, I do like BBQ every now and then, will have an omelet for breakfast if there are few other options (especially when traveling), and have sweets on occasion. Gotta live.

1 like
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Lulu700

I liked the video. My naturalpathic and I agree in total. Thanks!

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Lulu700

Didn’t know about the bpa in canned tomatoes. I’m on the lycopene nutrients maybe because of that.

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DeanNelson

Make Favorite Breakfast (3-4 times a week)...Homemade sourdough toast, with a can of sardines, avocado, red onions and 2 sunnyside up eggs on top. My wife HATES the smell but OMG is soooo good :)

2 likes
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KariMari
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