Has anyone gone on a strict vegetarian or vegan diet? I am considering it after hearing about allegedly increased risk of mortality from prostate cancer from consuming animal protein. For those who have gone on a animal-free diet, from where do you get your protein and related nutrients to maintain and grow muscle mass? I am about to take ADT and I read that it can weaken muscles and increase fat as a result. Any experience and advice on the relationship among animal protein (and fat) consumption, stubborn prostate cancer, ADT, and maintaining muscular strength would be greatly appreciated.
I want advice on Diet, ADT, & muscle ... - Advanced Prostate...
I want advice on Diet, ADT, & muscle maintenance
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Poiqwe
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"Allegedly" is right! No good evidence for radical diets like this.
Your reply TA is helpful to me. A lot of people do comment on plant-based diets. Because I have metabolic syndrome I am on a low-carb diet (but not really a keto diet). But then I start to worry about the fact that I do eat cheese and meat. And I know that you base your statements on proper clinical studies. So I'm just not going to worry about this.
The only trial on diet that rises to Level 1 evidence is the Meal Trial. It proved that increasing vegetable intake (with concomitant decrease in protein intake) had no effect on cancer progression in men on active surveillance.
jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...
The best advice on diet for prostate cancer is to vary protein and fat sources. Since cardiovascular health is so important (CV disease is 20X the killer that PCa is), plant-based fats (low in trans fats) should be the main source.
Metabolic syndrome, which has major health implications, does respond to diet, so I am glad you are taking it seriously.
I hate to see men deprive themselves of the pleasure of eating the occasional rib-eye based on scant evidence. With libido gone, it is important to enhance one's QOL where one can.
Super! But as for trans fats I don't think they show up very often anymore ... whether plants meets or cheeses you're not going to find trans fats in a healthy diet?? But then the surprising statement (at least to me) - because of CV risk, "plant-based fats" could be the main source of protein and fat. This kind of brings me back to the beginning! Become a vegetarian! Makes your proteins between grains and legumes etc. Probably fish is a good idea. But don't eat a lot of cheese and beef or chicken! Not sure what to do now. We do a lot of nuts and fish as well as cheese and meat. But not too much by a way of plant protein😟
Olive oil, canola oil, whole grains, nuts, seeds are all sources of plant-based fats.
I pretty much went to a Mediterranean diet. Thing is, a plate in Greece is totally different from a plate in Morocco. Large variety, endless meal ideas. Finally, I have transitioned to wild caught seafood, eliminating everything with hoofs or wings. Edit: I do have a prime beef Tomahawk steak on the 4th of July, that and a six-pack.
Best of luck, Marshall.
Nothing, and I mean nothing, depresses me more than the idea of a vegan or vegetarian diet.
Same here!!!
One has a terminal cancer, Nothing is going to cure it.
PC is not a merciful killer, it will invade bones with painful consequences and complications.
Eat everything you want in moderation in a low carbo diet and enjoy meanwhile you can. TA comment about a rib eye once in a while is a good idea to me since I am a meat lover.
Dying of a cardiovascular complication is not such a bad thing when one is in this situation.
I am not going to keep my coronaries without any plaques meanwhile the cancer is killing me breaking my bones and destroying my bone marrow.
Doesn't Calcium, Vitamin D, weight exercize, ADT, & chemotherapy delay such bone destruction?
All approved and some experimental treatments could delay the bone problems, but treatments are not diets.
Calcium, Vitamin D and weight exercise will not delay the progression of the cancer
Two kinds of bone destruction. One, from mets. Two, from accelerated BMD loss due to ADT. You have no chance of reversing BMD loss when on ADT without a drug like Prolia (denosumab), et al. BMD leads to osteoporosis, and men who fracture a hip (the most likely site) have poor odds of not dying from that in a matter of months.
Why low carbs? Do you mean low refined carbs? I eat a high fiber, high unrefined carb diet (4.5 years) and haven't seen a downside at all.
ADT causes metabolic syndrome and increase the risk of developing diabetes.
sciencedirect.com/science/a...
Perhaps a diet with a minimum of carbohydrates (no sugars), lean beef, chichen, fish, turkey with only vegetables which growth above earth (lettuce vs potatoes. etc ..) and some fruits such as berries (no oranges, bananas, apples etc), could delay the development of diabetes.
OK, thanks. I haven't found that, but maybe it works that way for some. I eat sweet potatoes, apples, some whole potatoes (all with skin). I usually eat bananas with or after a high fiber meal (whole grains). But as for refined sugars or starches, there I agree. Maybe the fiber makes the difference.
nope
academic.oup.com/jcem/artic...
youtube.com/watch?v=0ytTzPY... -- Dr. Scholz, you must go on anti-bone loss medicine when on ADT ideally when starting ADT. Supplements and vitamins won't get you there.
AHA diet is good and lowers CVD risk. Some on this site will tell you to eat anything. Some tell you to deprive yourself. Fortunately, the U.S. government obeys real science.
heart.org/en/healthy-living...
Maintaining muscle strength is not easy. Heavy resistance training can help.
Read your post and all replies. Got a slightly different opinion compared to some others. I believe, that the „total work of art“, what we all are, is more than the sum of all pieces. So I go for a more holistic approach:
1. Diet
Whole food plant based diet with fish, so pesco-vegetarian. Recently some posted studies here confirming that this diet seems to support the body best - very close to mediterranean diet but without animal meat and dairy. Protein sources are beans, legumes in general, nuts and seeds and fish. I avoid alcohol and fat except plant fats and sugar (as good as possible).
2. Exercise
Equally important to keep muscles, especially while on ADT and to keep CV system in shape. Weight lifting, gymnastics and any of jogging, swimming and/or cycling , best daily.
3. Stress
Reducing stress to the possible minimum strengthens the body. Good sleep, meditation and living in the moment.
All that is easy to be said and sometimes hard to be achieved, sometimes it’s also fun. Trying a bit more every day is leading the way. An old saying says „drop by drop we create a lake“. I like that.
Do I believe it would kill me, eating a steak once a month or drinking a glass of wine or bottle of beer from time to time? No, certainly not. But by knowing this it’s easier to avoid it.
I fully trust that supporting our body & soul activates self healing, at least self supporting and increases quality of life. I’m doing this, with some try & error, since six years and I’m feeling well doing so. Everybody should find „his“ way.
Have a nice Christmas time!
Most would do well to simply exercise more (both cardiovascular and strength training), eat less and diversify their diet.
As has been rightfully said, death from CVD is a FAR greater danger than anything else, including this disease.
I moved to a vegan diet almost by chance a year and a half ago. Actually a month or two before my diagnosis of prostate cancer- perhaps deep down I knew I needed to change? I had the operation, successful so far, 6 months ago. As you can imagine before during and after have had numerous blood tests plus have been back actively involved in sports, rowing, cycling etc. All the tests are in range with muscle mass increasing with fat % dropping. So vegan diet if done properly can lead to increases in all mesures, not to mention better over all for you. But you need to approach it properly, doesn’t take a lot of effort but you need to pay attention. Also…. Avoid packaged food, make things yourself.
resistance/weight training to all Muscle groups for an hour three times a week, preferably with a trainer. That’s the only true way to maintain muscle mass on adt. Many here have time that and dine quite well. Not easy and takes a commitment but fear is a good motivator.
Schwah
there are so many variables here but the general consensus here in the UK is to exercise, improve strength (not body-builder style muscle mass) and to eat plenty of fish, vegetables and natural plant-based foods. And it’s also STRONGLY recommended not to eat processed / ultra-processed foods, especially processed meat and processed plant-based foot in quantity. That means spending more money on higher quality produce and reading the labels - not everything plant-based is healthy if it is processed. Carbs are not an necessarily an issue, but like everything, your diet and QoL depends on your baseline starting point, where your mind is and what your approach to staying fit is. A 40 year old ex-athlete is likely to have a different approach to a 70 year old non-athlete. A resilient mindset is also crucial - educate yourself on what your approach should be to maintain / enhance your QoL and then attempt to adapt and stick to it. But enjoy life too - as mentioned, there are plenty of other bad news stories around the corner and you can’t mitigate for them all.
Read "The China Study.". There is a ton of evidence supporting a vegan diet to reduce chance of getting and growth rate of cancer.
It won't cure your cancer, but it will lower your risk, after treatment, of it coming back. There was a study that showed a 50% reduction in reoccurrence of breast cancer in women that switched to a vegan diet.
I've been a vegan for a couple years. Have no problem getting all the protein I need from plant based foods. Don't miss meat because we found great tasting recipes. To retain muscle and bone you need to work out. Lift weights. Nothing crazy. A set of adjustable dumbbells is all you need.
The only real negative I've found is it makes going out to dinner tougher. There are limited choices. That has gotten better but there are still 100 regular restaurants for every vegan one and the vegan choices regular restaurants serve are usually lame to the point of feeling like a punishment.
Message me if you want tips on meals or exercise.
The authors wife died of cancer and she followed the diet for years.
Anecdotal vs. statistics and science. Vegan won't cure you or totally protect you. It will lower your risk. His wife lived longer than was medically expected after diagnosis.
I went with low sugar vegan diet after diagnosis. It doesn’t help kill the cancer. However, what the diet does help with the side effects of ADT such as weight gain, and cardiovascular problems. My cholesterol went from 165 to 138, and I loss over 15 pounds since going vegan 11 months ago. The less cholesterol keeps the pipes clear which does help with ED.
Nothing is going to stop the muscle loss. Lifting weights help. The exercise with a good diet will help with the low energy.
I know I’m one voice in many here on this topic. My cancer is very aggressive BRCA2 type that I can’t take my eye off of. My diet and activities are to counter the side effects of the constant medication and new treatments. The diet will not to cure me, but it has helped me live my best life with cancer so far.
Hope this helps.
Well let me say all the above are great in theory and most can have some positive effects both physically and mentally.
However Not meant as an offense to anyone but why did we NOT get in better shape, eat better, etc prior your diagnosis and do you really think that you can overcome 50, 60 or more years of lack of exercise, a western diet, etc.
Could write more but I need to get get back to my Christmas baking so I can send then to my friends and family.
Here is my experience.....When I was diagnosed at age 46 a little over 5 years ago, I did a lot of "internet" research and did hear of many who went to a whole food plant based diet (Chris Wark, Dr. Ruth Heidridtch) so I figured I'd go all in. They had cancer but not prostate. Long story short, after 3 years of things going in the right direction meaning my PSA went down for about a year and then was undetectable, it started to show back up. All during this time I had radiation to my prostate and several spots on my bones, took Zytiga, then Xtandi and had hormone shots every 6 months. I also amped up my exercise from a casual 2-3 times a week to consistently every other day. I felt good and I know the healthy diet helped......but the medicine and treatments were fighting the cancer. For the last 2 years, I have continued to exercise and my diet has a lot of plant based foods, but now with some chicken and occasionally shrimp. I did provenge about 2 years ago and a clinical trial for a year. Now I am getting ready to get my 3rd infusion of Docetaxel. So the diet helps offset side effects of the treatments, but the treatments are what are doing the work fighting cancer. A healthy diet helps the rest of your body (heart, etc...) to stay healthy while going through this journey.
Stay active, exercise, eat healthy, reduce stress....but total vegan I think is not necessary. I do believe those who are young can prevent some cancers eating a healthy plant based diet, but for us, it's like using protection when you're already pregnant.
I started a vegetarian diet days after diagnosis. Domestic animals are fed hormones to make them grow bigger, fatter and faster. Those hormones get into the meat. That can't be good for a hormone fed cancer.By the way I added occasional fish a few years later.
Good day. As my Oncologist told me years ago, “on your PC journey you are all different”. After my prostatectomy in Jan 2015 (65) followed by radiation and ADT (Zoladex) and the realization that the cancer had escaped the prostate, I told my wife that I would not change my life, with one exception that was out of my control. With my radical prostatectomy I immediately lost all possibilities of ever having sex again. Given that, I decided to continue to enjoy the other things that I like such as food and wine and if they were to take years off my life then so be it. I have played sports and exercised all my life and I have continued to go to the gym three times a week and walk the other days. My weight is good. While I have reduced the intake of sugar, I believe I have a balanced diet of meat (all kinds) fish, shrimp and veggies both raw (salads every night) and cooked. Because I still have PC, with a known tumour where my right seminal vesicle used to be, I have to continue to fight the PSA battle with ADT but…nine years on I’m enjoying life. Will I live to be 75? 80? 85? Don’t know.
I gave up dairy many years ago after reading about the link between cow hormones and prostate cancer though I guess 40 years or so of consuming something nutritious for baby cows (+ the added hormones from agribusiness) took its toll on me. Pop it in Google Scholar and find links such as: f.oaes.cc/xmlpdf/524daf0e-1... At least I don't further feed these cancer cells circulating in me. I've grown to like soy milk as well and it has more protein than most of the other milk substitutes. I do consume yogurt and other sources of refrigerated probiotics to build back my gut after radiation-induced bowel problems.
I gave up red meats for the most part 20+ years ago and still occasionally eat poultry or fish, but primarily eat a plant-based diet heavy on legumes, nuts, and grains for protein. Every doctor I have seen through this pca journey has mentioned that my blood labwork looks better than theirs. I do try to eliminate chicken skin and eat less than 2 eggs/wk but also realize that the poultry and fish I consume likely is high in heavy metals, pesticides, hormones, pharmaceuticals, etc. from the feeds and water these profit-based foods are raised on. (and likely the plants I consume as well 
I don't judge others and wouldn't think an occasional steak, milkshake, hot dog, hamburger, scotch, or anything else in moderation would drastically change my lifespan.
A good basic exercise program and simple weight resistance training is shown to reduce the effects of ADT. I use Tai Chi and a set of hand weights.
How about some bio info............ it helps you and us. Thank you!!!
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Monday 12/04/2023 10:17 PM EST
Good idea! His doc's name, too?
Reason why I stopped asking for that specific information.
I used to ask for doctor(s) names and treatment center(s), but many members do not feel comfortable sharing that information. My guess is that some of "us" think their doctors are gods and maybe afraid of ruffling their feathers and/or law suits. I'm not.
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Tuesday 12/05/2023 11:28 AM EST
No problem sharing from my perspective. All are MDACC docs - MO - Dr. Paul G. Corn, RO - Dr. Steven J. Frank, and urologist Dr. Curtis A. Pettaway. Dr Pettaway was assigned at my 1st appointment and I selected the other doctors after research of the MCACC doctors relevant to my pca. My cousin, a retired MD chose her doctors at MCACC based on their published research activities specific to her cancer and I sort of followed her example. From what the radiation techs told me, all the doctors at MCACC are required to also teach, so their MD part is shared with their research and academia.
Got 'er done...
Thank you for not being afraid of mentioning your doctor(s) and your treatment center. Bless you and Happy Christmas to you and yours....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Friday 12/22/2023 4:33 PM EST
Peace to you brother and enjoy your Christmas as well. It's my birthday today, so this will be one of the few days I'll eat things I ordinarily don't.... (probably cake and Mexican food that my kids will bring in from one of their favorite restaurants).
NIH published these results November, 2023: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/379...
I eat and drink whatever I want and enjoy, not to excess, in portions that keep my weight at the so called "ideal" level. Very simple and no worries.
I like salads and vegetables interspersed with adequate protein from many sources (or vice versa), including animal source to ensure I get a good balance of amino acids. Adequate protein is important as we get older, especially for those working out. I tried different diets (without going full plant) and intermittent fasting to try and get cholesterol down, none worked as clearly my genetics like many in my family involve creating lots of cholesterol. Low dose statin finally took care of that. I do avoid foods with added sugar/refined foods most of the time, with an occasional indulgence here and there.
There are a lot of variables that could have sped up my getting PCA, but genetics was the number #1. Lots of men in my family (father, uncles, cousin) have PCA, but why did I get mine earlier than some older male relatives who don't have it yet despite an overall much better diet and exercise profile? Maybe it was the late start for statins? The heavy metals in the supposedly healthy dark chocolate? Too many beers on Saturday nights in my 20s? Luck of the draw with a genetic mutation? I don't see any strong evidence for things other than proven scientifically validated treatments for keeping the PCA beast under control in addition to exercise, mental/spiritual outlook and an overall decent diet.
Been on ADT since Feb and had 5 LU177 treatments. I've gained about 5 lbs since then, most of it muscle mass from lifting weights as I've gotten stronger.
I was very rigid after dx hoping for a cure and knowing that reducing my weight and changing my diet may not help with that but had a clear plan to help with the Side effects of treatments. After recurrence this year and knowing there is no cure for me I am much less concerned about what I eat or drink but still very focused on what I need to do to keep the treatment from killing me quicker than the cancer.
Exercise is the key to keeping your muscle mass. I needed to work out daily to avoid muscle loss while on ADT.
I follow a heart healthy diet and try to satisfy my sweet tooth with fruit instead of refined sugar.
See if you can listen to this podcast; exercise is a dramatic way to give your body the best chance it has at recovery, reduction of symptoms due to treatment and in the long run, reduce the rate of aging...Dr's have said that if you could put exercise in a pill they would FORCE their patients to take it...take a listen...Rick
Chocolate chip ice cream (two scoops)...
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Monday 12/04/2023 10:19 PM EST
Hi I suggest you look into 'lowcarb.com'
A lot of studies are epidemical and not evidence based such as info on plant based diets. Low carb is evidence based on controlled trials.
It certainly slows cancer growth which is accelerated by sugar
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