I know there is a lot of discussion about the benefits of exercise in helping to mitigate muscle on ADT. However, I’m interested in hearing from this group about the possibility of actually building muscle while on ADT. I exercise six days a week utilizing weights on five of those days and a combination of aerobic in between. I have noticed that I am maintaining muscle and possibly even building some muscle definition. Has anyone else had this experience and can muscle actually be built while on ADT with the significant loss of testosterone ? Also, what role, if any do protein shakes play in this. I have been using protein shakes after my weightlifting exercises and wonder if that is advisable or not. Thank you all in advance. Stay strong!
Building muscle on ADT: I know there... - Advanced Prostate...
Building muscle on ADT
You don’t mention what type of protein you take. I switched from whey to soy after reading that whey can increase IGF-1 levels.
Some studies suggest higher IGF-1 may be associated with prostate cancer risk, though the evidence on its role in progression is less clear.
So far it’s been whey protein. I will look into the soy products. Thank you
My oncologist at Sloan Kettering recommend staying away from Soy products as they mimic testostarone.
I thought soy was supposed to be good for prostate cancer.
I use Egg white protein, which I think is probably the safest
This study shows egg whites also increase IGF-1 (but whether that is bad is unknown)
Consumption of whole eggs and egg whites led to similar increases in body mass, anaerobic power, growth hormone, and IGF-1 after training
Soy tends to reduce IGF-1.
Soy is no good, it more in line with estrogen, not a good muscle builder.
There’s a lot of misunderstanding about soy. While soy contains phytoestrogens, they don’t act like human estrogen in men. In fact, studies show that soy protein doesn’t harm muscle growth. Some research even suggests it can be just as effective as whey for building muscle when protein intake is sufficient. Plus, it may have potential benefits for prostate health. If you have solid evidence showing otherwise, I’d be interested in seeing it.
Examples:
jissn.biomedcentral.com/art...
This investigation shows that 12 week supplementation with soy protein does not decrease serum testosterone or inhibit lean body mass changes in subjects engaged in a resistance exercise program.
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/300...
Soy protein supplementation is not androgenic or estrogenic in college-aged men when combined with resistance exercise training
I have built and continue to build muscle and strength using SARMS and they were approved by my MO. Basics of building muscle are caloric surplus as well as tons of protein. I use shakes and meat as my source. I do it in cycles of 6 weeks building and 4 weeks shedding weight. Muscle wise I am bigger than I was in college. Been doing this for about 3 years.
I was interested in Ostarine from one of your previous replies. I did some AI searches and I think I'll wait until I finish ADT before trying it. If I remember correctly you cycle on and off to limit toxicity.
mr sruffy
Where do you purchase osterine or other SARMs that you would feel would not be contaminated or fake as they are not FDA approved? Also, you said they were approved by your MO, do you mean They thought it was a good idea or acknowledged that you were taking them? Also, is your MO affiliated with a hospital?
I would like to try them, but I am a little dubious after reading the link to perplexity AI posted by someone in this thread.
I source mine from PowerRawz. I asked my MO what he thought about me taking them and his response was "It is a good idea but I cant tell you to take them because not FDA approved" I then asked if "I was your son would you stop me" his answer was "no" then he recited all kinds of studies regarding them and PC as they were originally designed to stop T production. I take body measurements every 6 months and growth is definitely there as well as personal bests in my lifting. In the end it is a personal choice. Kidney and liver tests are monitored every 3 months, so far no ill effects have been detected. He is affiliated with a major cancer center
That’s impressive, congratulations on the hard work. Forgive my ignorance but what is SARMS? Do you have a preference for what shakes you use?
Not to divert the subject, but get your bone density checked if you haven't already.
Since being on ADT I have carried on exercising to try and reduce muscle loss. My strength is measurably lower after 18 months, hopefully my T will recover when I finish my course in a few months time, but at 77 I don't have a lot of confidence.
I don't take protein shakes after workouts (or ever) during ADT, as I am concerned I might be feeding the beast.
My research indicates cancer cells require two things to survive and grow, carbohydrate and glutamine.
Reducing carbs is easy enough with a keto diet or similar, but glutamine is a bit more difficult.
Muscles are hungry for glutamine and therefore levels drop after a workout
Protein shakes are designed to replace lost energy after a workout and normally contain these two key ingredients which is the reason I only drink water after a workout. Am I starving the cancer cells or simply making my recovery more difficult?
Only time will tell, but knowledge is power.
Good luck
I started resistance training when I started ADT, and have moved up to lifting some decent weights, and have managed to increase my strength. I was curious how this was possible without testosterone, and had an interesting chat with AI about it. This was what I was told:
Even without testosterone, several mechanisms can contribute to strength gains:
1. Neuromuscular Adaptations:
- Your nervous system becomes more efficient at recruiting existing muscle fibers
- Your brain improves at coordinating multiple muscles to work together
- Movement patterns become more efficient as you practice exercises
2. Alternative Growth Pathways:
- While testosterone is important, your body has other hormones and growth factors that can support muscle function, including:
- Growth Hormone
- Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1)
- Mechanical growth factors produced by muscle tissue itself when exercised
3. Structural Changes:
- Improvements in tendon strength
- Enhanced blood flow to muscles
- Better muscle fiber recruitment patterns
It's important to note that even people who are completely unable to build new muscle tissue can still get significantly stronger through these neural adaptations.
Your response from AI is encouraging, thanks for posting it. I get to the gym 4-5 days a week, when not playing golf. For cardio and weights. Muscular improvement not visibly obvious but I feel better for it, psychologically at least. Good luck.
I've been on ADT for 15 months with another 9 to go. I record my chest, waist and hip measurements and weight every week. I was 75 Kg and am now 76.8. My chest has increased slightly by 2cm, my waist has increased 3cm and my hips are stable. I go to 45 min exercise classes 5-6 times a week. These consist of aerobics, weights and core stability. I wanted to increase my weight slightly as a reserve. The hand weights I can handle for repeated shoulder presses, biceps curls, etc has increased by 25%.
I also use Boditrax every 3m, which analyses my bone/muscle/fat mass. Fat mass increased by 3kg in the first 3m but has since stabilised. Overall muscle mass has been quite steady although my leg muscle has decreased a bit on the last test. I do a lot of squats, etc, but I find these painful in bone and tendons/muscles around my knee so I don't go as hard as I could. However I have recently found a machine where I can press hard with my legs from 90 deg to straight without unduly hurting my knees which will hopefully make a difference. I am still classified as slim muscular with a metabolic age of 58 (I'm actually 73) so I'm pleased with that.
I take creatine and BCAA and also a whey shake. I wouldn't take SARMs as I think they're dodgy.
hello
I am 66 . I have been on ADT 5 years now ( started March 2020) Eligard and over time Nubeqa. Now getting castration résistant
I have built measurabl muscular mass, aadditional strenght and définition with disciplined strenght trainintraining (4 times a week plus playing hockey) and efforts (repitition to failure and inreasing weight loads). And caring about proper form to avoid injuries
Lots of protein both whey and soy; paying attention to get proper sleep and suffssufficieni caloric intake. No supplements as I feel my body has already turned into a lab.
I train whatever I feel like if that day or not. But I generally do look forward to iit and never regret it.
Training is my self medication and my Qol depends on it. It is not negotiable. I build my schedule around it.
It works for me. Hope it does for you
cheers Francois
I am 82, been on doublet ADT and ARPI for 12 months, and have used nine exercise machines almost daily for 10 months. I built a lot of muscle and strength. No protein supplements, just normal amount of meat, chicken, fish.
I had ADT for three years and one year ago total orchiectomy. Exercising daily: running and weight lifting/gymnastics. Started to add vegan protein to achieve around 1-1.2g protein per kilogram body weight daily. My diet is plant based plus some fish. When I started my journey I was just jogging and lost most of my muscles. Now I gained most of my muscles back and still adding.
Is anyone on Apalutamide? I'm going to be starting that pretty soon and I'm worried about losing muscle mass. I go to the gym regularly and have a regimen of upper body exercises. I'm hoping to at least maintain what I've got, but being able to add to it would be wonderful.
I’m on Apalutimide and Eligard that started at the same time. I am the same weight as when I started 5 years ago. However, I have loss muscle and gained fat around my waist. I have read that ADT causes your body to do that, not sure about the Apalutimide. I walk, exercise and stay active but could do more.
You will have to continue to work out. You might want to try creatine on workout days. I am not on ADT but I plateau'd at the gym. With the creatine I am finding that at first I could increase reps and then that I could actually start increasing the weights. I am 75. I've been using the creatine for about 6 weeks now. I was also drawn to it for the potential cognitive benefit too.
modestly lift weights, just trying to keep my existing strength . Have two things working against me age and adt. But I'm alive so I thank God for every day.
You’re doing great. Some will tell you it’s not possible to build muscle on ADT, but that’s wrong and simplistic.
Some men begin ADT already strong, but they are in the vast minority. Most have either lifted only occasionally or not at all. Then the ADT comes and hopefully they learn quick what they need to do so they start training, again often with little or no experience.
We longtime lifters see the old and inexperienced in gyms all the time-happy for them that they are there, regardless of level. Most are clearly deconditioned from years of sedentary living and are now playing catch up-again, admirable but also a difficult way to make substantial progress.
Most men on ADT who lift (statistically <15%) are basically either beginners, occasional lifters or many years past it. Being older works against them for building muscle, but being weak does the opposite-those at the weakest end of the spectrum always make the fastest and most dramatic gains. Even adjusted for age, some of these gains are quite possible on ADT. If either a trainer or considerable effort is employed all the better.
Protein matters of course. Creatine can help. Ostarine, amino acids and other supplements make small differences for sure. Neuromuscular adaptations and alternative growth pathways? Perhaps.
However, if a man starts making appreciable gains on ADT, it’s almost certainly because he is training harder and probably eating well. Nothing else can account for it.
In other words, a man bringing the same training amount and intensity to the ADT experience is extremely unlikely to even maintain his existing strength. The game must be upped, so to speak. Most guys would do best to focus on increasing their intensity first, followed by diet, sleep and recovery-then supplements.
Effort is the king of strength builders.
“Effort is the king of strength builders”
I like that and it’s so true. Thank you
Sometimes I get the shakes.......
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n
I get the sundae instead of the shake or float when offered
Great comments and discussion! I was never interested in strength training - I was fit and thought I was strong from my active lifestyle. A year on bicalutamide kicked my butt and then I tuned in to aging.
Started up with a trainer several years ago. Have spent last six months 3X a week, 1.5 hour sessions, with trainer. Full on very safe intensity. Amazing results but for me it has taken effort I did not know I had and sometimes do not want to put forth.
I work 4-5 times a week in weight room. Sprinkle in some cardio. Steam room and pool after every workout.
Im quite surprised that my lifts didn't decrease very much and in fact I am increasing as time goes on. I am frustrated sometimes by lack of physical changes as it is slower now of course. I use whey quite often.
Life continues even on ADT.
Muscle Pain.
ADT 's effect on body fat and muscle mass from Life on ADT blog by Richard Wassersug
Muscle pain from ADT
ADT, Weightlifting, protein and vegetarian diet
