Antioxidants and Cancer.

[No_stone_unturned]

Apologies if this subject has already been discussed somewhere and I missed it. I’m trying consolidate my supplement. For those who believe that supplements are some benefit or nothing to lose but money; Should we be avoiding antioxidants?

cancer.gov/about-cancer/cau...

[Tall_Allen]

Ever since the SELECT trial found that antioxidants (and free radical absorbers) can interfere with one's natural cancer-control mechanisms, suspicion has been cast on the category. For many supplements, there is nothing to lose but money. But how can you be sure which is which? Supplements are drugs - just because you don't have to get them from a doctor, doesn't mean they are innocuous.

[Schwah in reply to Tall_Allen]

TA, what common supplements do you consider antioxidants and potentially detrimental ? D-3, tumeric, baby aspirin, other ??

Schwah

[Tall_Allen in reply to Schwah]

None of those are powerful antioxidants to my knowledge. Vitamin E, Vitamin C (oral), methionine, glutathione are antioxidants that should be avoided as supplements (but are OK in foods). Turmeric may interfere with PSA tests and may act as a chelator in large amounts.

Here's a list of supplements to avoid if you are tracking progression with PSA tests:

prostatecancer.news/2019/04...

[Purple-Bike in reply to Tall_Allen]

At least for those with deficiency in glutathione, supplementation is linked to various improved health markers, in two small clinical trials..

Glycine and N-acetylcysteine (GlyNAC) supplementation in older adults improves glutathione deficiency, oxidative stress, mitochondrial dysfunction, inflammation, insulin resistance, endothelial dysfunction, genotoxicity, muscle strength, and cognition: Results of a pilot clinical trial

Premranjan Kumar et al. Clin Transl Med. 2021 Mar.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Purple-Bike]

How big of a problem is glutathione deficiency?

[Purple-Bike in reply to Tall_Allen]

I believe it is a general problem for older adults, who have lower glutathione levels which is considered a deficiency by the researchers of those trials.

By supplementing with the glutathione precursors, glutathione was restored to youthful levels and a range of health measurements improved.

Is there any particular negative effect from supplementation that you would like to point out?

As always, some side effects are listed, in glutathione supplementation ranging from abdominal cramps to avoid taking during chemotherapy.

I as N=1 have not noticed anything, and neither was anything negative observed by the researchers, from the precursor supplements.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Purple-Bike]

If a blood test reveals your levels are low supplement, otherwise, not. Excess antioxidants interfere with the mechanisms your body uses to rid itself of cancer.

[Purple-Bike in reply to Tall_Allen]

We know that is true for vitamin E, beta-carotene and some more; I haven't come across evidence pointing to this generally for antioxidants.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Purple-Bike]

We know that immune destruction of cancer and apoptosis both require ROS - why would you do anything to interfere with that?

[Purple-Bike in reply to Tall_Allen]

Thanks, I will check up on antioxidants, ROS and cancer.

Glutathione was one of only four antioxidants that you singled out to avoid as supplements. Any particular reason for this?

It is the single most common antioxidant, present in high concentrations in most cells, when not deficient. If I remember correctly, typical daily intake from food is a whopping 2g, so you need a big intake to multiply this.

[Tall_Allen in reply to Purple-Bike]

It is an important antioxidant in cell biology. Our bodies use both pro-oxidants and antioxidants. Overwhelming our bodies with too much of either defeats the normal homeostasis. Our bodies and microbiomes have evolved to take what we need from food and excrete the rest. It is an act of hubris to think we can improve upon millions of years of evolution.

[No_stone_unturned]

I happen to have your supplement bible printed; great resource. What’s your brand of choice? I use “life extension, ultra botanical,” now” to name a few.

[Hidden]

I’ll not criticize if you take or don’t take. I can only share what my research medical oncologist told me in 2004 as I embarked on a six month clinical trial of chemotherapy and hormone therapy..... if you take supplements, I want to know. My approval is critical. I do not want supplements to screw up the data. ..... the next topic he brought up was antioxidants....... my research tells me that antioxidants cause metastatic lesions to form and grow, that means supplements, blueberries, cruciferous vegetables, squash, legumes, green tea, tomatoes, grapes........ so for three years I laid off of them...... another cut back was milk and milk products,; although he did allow me one small bowl of Bluebell ice cream once a month.

Now, I never was a supplement guy, but in January I started supplements to help balance my hormones and help loose visceral fat.

The subject is controversial, however I followed my guy who spent a career in academia. Good luck. Talk with your medical oncologist and see what he recommends.

GD.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Gd, I am not understanding, did your doc tell you NO green tea, blueberries, cruciferous vegetables (broccoli sprouts) grapes? Also I want to understand the last paragraph, (doesn’t ).. thank you GD

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Yes. All food high in anti-oxidants. Please understand the context.... this was a clinical trial with factors based on his research. Today I eat those foods, then, I did not based on his instructions. I understand that there are still different schools of thought.

[Hidden in reply to Hidden]

Thanks GD, I understand!

[Hidden]

Should have read spent not doesn’t. Thank you

[MateoBeach]

If you really want to understand this topic (which is indeed interesting) there is no simple answer, so I will not offer one. We are not only fighting PC. We are simultaneously striving to support our entire body over a lifetime. (And the vast majority of our cells are not cancerous.)

Actually there is a simple answer: Include a wide variety of vegetables and some fruits (careful of sugars) in your diet, whether you are vegetarian or omnivorous. Emphasize cruciferous veggies.

However, to really get a handle on the science, complexities and history of anti-oxidant supplements, I recommend reading the book, "Oxygen, The Molecule that Made the World" by Nick Lane. Start on Chapter 9 which is all about Vitamin C and subsequent chapters. Fascinating and worthwhile. (And I do supplement certain natural phyto-chemicals that have antioxidant mechanisms as part of their actions. (Will not name them until you do your homework.) - Kindly, Paul / MB

[Cooolone]

The funniest thing... Causation or Effect!?!?

Low PSA readings... Is it because the antioxidants are effecting the cancer...? Or just causing the PSA to be masked...?

Hmmmmm...

Controversial indeed!

I'll just leave it there

[MrG68 in reply to Cooolone]

Yeah what strange about the effect on psa readings is it’s not cumulative. So if you take a supplement every day, it can’t explain why a psa would vary. All you can assume is it is potentially elevated or suppressed by some percentage… unless you change your dosage everyday maybe. Taking a supplement will not compound the reading. So if you take a time series and look at the trend that would be a better indicator than an absolute value.

[ARIES29]

If I may suggest going without supplements of any type before a blood test so one knows the true reading.

[MrG68 in reply to ARIES29]

If you do a time series of data there’s no need not to stop taking anything. That’s only possibly ‘needed’ if you’re taking a single absolute data point. This is still a bad idea because a single data point will vary for this test every time because there are so many confounding parameters.My advise is to do a best fit regression line. The gradient will show you how growth is progressing.

[No_stone_unturned in reply to ARIES29]

I fast atleast 12hours before every blood test.

[ARIES29 in reply to No_stone_unturned]

Likewise I take no supplements the day before which is around 30hrs. Fasting from all food sounds even better.

[No_stone_unturned]

Cool, so if I follow your supplement bible then I should be good. My interest is more along the lines of is anything I’m taking now working against me.

[Gearhead]

Almost everyone like me with beginning macular degeneration gets advised by their ophthalmologist to take the AREDS2 formula, which has been shown in legitimate trials to delay MD progression in many cases. AREDS2 capsules include antioxidants C (500 mg) and E (400 IU), lutein, zeaxanthin...

So what am I to do if I have Stage 4 PCa and developing macular degeneration?

[No_stone_unturned]

Thank you again for the link to your book. Everyone should own a copy of this, especially if first dx. This is an amazing body of work. You compiled everything in a data driven, easier to understand option guide. Bravo.

[ARIES29]

In reply the supplement effects would naturally still be in the blood as a residue or half life? Example would be the turmeric 10000mg day, will not disappear in 12hrs but hopefully the effects will remain & not effect the PSA reading.

[ARIES29]

Good point & I think to be sure one would want to go (cold turkey) on supplements for at least 3 days.I am just grateful for the relief the cercum gives me from arthritis without going to pain killers & if it masks the PCA then so be it.

[Purple-Bike]

Can I get a link to your supplement book?