Hello!
What kind of supplements do you take that is not antioxidants?
Not writing this to start a debate, just genuinly curious.
Thank you!
supplements that is not AO: Hello! What... - Advanced Prostate...
supplements that is not AO
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TheTopBanana
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50 Replies
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I eat a lot of lycopenes in my diet which are of course antioxidants. But beyond that I use heat on my mets. I use several methods, including a portable sauna which cost about $200, hot showers which cost very little, I use a heating pad which cost about $20, and I use a heated 5-lb disc steel weight which I had anyway. Additionally I use refrigerator magnets. All of these methods I apply directly to sore spots which I believe are metastisis on my rib, spine, and neck. They seem to slow the growth, stop the pain temporarily,, but don't actually eliminate the mets. Let me know if you need more .
P.S. also I use D3. And my objective is to kill cancer with heat. All cancer cells die at 106 deg F.
Providing heat to the affected area causes blood vessels to dilate and increase in blood flow. .enabling meds to go more to the area and also the macrophages, phagocytes etc to enter the area easily. Besides it certainly relieved pain and tightness of muscle. I use warm baths and heating pad sometimes.
In some European countries, it is popular to heat the prostate (or the whole body in case of metastatic). There are many private clinics that provide this treatment. Specialized equipment is used for this, e.g. IRATHERM 1000, IRATHERM 2000, and others. Usually, this treatment is combined with another treatment, e.g. hormone therapy etc. How does such treatment look like in the USA?
In US doctors rigidly follow guidelines because if something goes wrong, they can protect themselves in courts by saying they were following standard guidelines. So, there is no room for any other treatment or intervention even if it is helpful. Doctors' hands are effectively tied by lawyers of Onco-industrial complex and big pharma. They have to toe the given line or else...Guidelines are designed for masses...just like McDonald's hamburgers ...and served to everyone almost the same way.Coming back to warming of the body...as I said it dilates blood vessels enabling better blood flow and delivery of meds, oxygen and cellular immune cells. I think using Sauna or warm tub baths, Heating pads .. are helpful. Physical Exercise leading to sweating also accomplishes the same effect.
Beware of heat shock proteins [HSPs] that can be induced by heat treatment. They are very protective chaperones in stressed cells. 368 hits on PubMed:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?te...
e.g. many for HSP70 - latest:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
ditto HSP90:
ijpmonline.org/article.asp?...
-Patrick
Thanks Patrick...Do you think mild heat just enough to cause vasodilatation can activate heat shock protein issue .?
I wouldn't know.
Cells have so many means of self-defense - the cancer cells are not doing anything special, just using available tools.
If you can't deliver the coup de grâce, don't take a chance if HSP might be induced. IMO.
-Patrick
What I read is that cancer cells are more fragile than normal cells and any drastic alteration in environment can destroy them .This change can be in chemical , metabolic ,temperature or or immune attack on them.... Cancer cells are also very insecure due to this very reason and that's why they are in such a hurry to reproduce fast. They only can win if they succeed in overwhelming the body by overtaking it from normal cells...generate their own food supply, blood supply and independent ,self reliant colonies. And then recruiting platelets to help them.I think keeping our immune system robust by keeping our general health good helps a lot in handling the toxic treatments needed to kill cancerous cells.
Thank you for that. I don't understand it much. Seems like they may protect cancer cells as well as harm them, in ways unknown. My general thinking is that at a certain temperature, above 106 deg F, cancer cells die. Normal cells may not. At least that is what I have come to believe. However, I suspect that heat at lower than 106 temperature might stimulate growth of all cells including cancer cells, while above 106 but under a certain temperature might harm all cells. So the use in applying to cancer needs to be done cautiously, not too hot, not too cold. My experience has been to use in the range of 106 to 120. However, I have to admit that what I am doing is experimental and potentially dangerous or beneficial. I can say that my PSA has not actually gone down significantly with my various attempts, and it seems the Lupron treatments with Xtandi have definitely been extremely beneficial by comparison. However, it is possible that in conjunction with the hormone therapy they do add some effectiveness, but I do not know that for sure. Latest two tests of PSA were 0.2. That was during use of the heating by various methods, sauna, hot showers, heating pads, and hot steel discs. So I suppose one could argue that without the heat I might have gone lower. Four months before that my PSA was 35.
Vitamin D3, vegetarian diet drink a lot of green tea. Also IP6, zinc, and berberine.
Magnus,IP6 is a powerful antioxidant discussed by Dr. Shamsuddin in his excellent text “IP6 and Inositol”.
For me, D3 (especially in New England winter) is a no-brainer. Also: magnesium, zinc, metformin and low-dose aspirin.I also add a fair amount of Ceylon cinnamon and turmeric to my foods and beverages, both of which hopefully also help with inflammation and insulin sensitivity (as the above ones hopefully do... I believe better insulin sensitivity may be associated with slower cancer growth).
I do not take fish oil in a pill, but do try to eat wild salmon, sardines, herring or mackerel (and flax or chia seed) a few times a week, and limit my intake of processed industrial seed oils. In short, emphasis on anti-inflammatory rather than anti-oxidant.
As I learned more, I discarded them all, although I remain hopeful about sulforaphane (except for with chemo or radiation). I learned that (in spite of blowhards on forums like this) no one knows the real biological effects on a human body (including the microbiome), the interactions with other drugs, I understand the psychological need to have some control, to think one is doing something helpful - but how could you possibly know that your tinkering is helping and not harming?
I hear ya, TA, but SOC care sucks and, let's face it, is limited in effectiveness over the long run.
And medicine is simply not that likeable of an institution as constituted today.
But you're right about supps and off label repurposed drugs. No one knows exactly what will or won't work. We only know whether the PCa gets better or worse over time.
• in reply toTall_Allen
Well, my renowned electrophysiologist hit me with a magnesium supplement prior to atrial fibrillation ablation surgery. I guess he doesn't share your disdain for any and all supplements, but what does he know? I also take CoQ10, L-Arginine, and L-Taurine for heart health and my doctors know that. I guess I'm on the road to perdition. Glucosamine-Chondroitin cured my problem with knee pain. Iodoral (iodine supplement) cured my problem with peyronies. I take D3 as well as K2-nattokinase for bone and artery health. I take Bitter melon extract and DIM for prostate cancer. So many supplements, so little time.
Tall_Allen• in reply to
A drug, like magnesium, that has been tested and used for a specific purpose is not a supplement. If you think taking any mineral concentrate is fine, try taking two teaspoons of potassium chloride, which will probably kill you. I don't disdain all supplements, I think they should be tested for safety and efficacy. Also, there should be increased scrutiny for labeling and purity. I also think there is a powerful placebo effect. More importantly, taking supplements provide an illusion of control.
• in reply toTall_Allen
Magnesium is most certainly a supplement.
healthline.com/nutrition/ma...
Maybe you should refrain from or qualify your campaign against supplements. Your attitude is 'supplements are bad until proven otherwise'. Most of us here disagree with you. Lighten up. Your know it all attitude is overbearing.
Tall_Allen• in reply to
Magnesium is given as a drug:online.epocrates.com/drugs/...
Actually, you've inadvertently made my point. Supplements are drugs.
Maybe you should think twice about recommending drugs to others that might harm them. Most of us here disagree with you. Your know it all attitude is overbearing.
• in reply toTall_Allen
I use supplements and have found good results using them. I mention the supplements that I take. I don't scold anyone for not using supplements. Big difference.
Tall_Allen• in reply to
You are promoting untested drugs - big difference.
• in reply toTall_Allen
I'm promoting personal responsibility and freedom of choice. You'd like the supplement industry shut down.
Tall_Allen• in reply to
By giving a lopsided view, you are only promoting misinformation. I would not like the supplement industry shut down, I'd like to see that multibillion-dollar industry held to the same standards that other drugs are.
T_A: how come you remain hopeful regarding sulforaphane? Curious.
It requires confirmation in a larger trial and should not be used by anyone undergoing radiation or chemo, but it looked good in a preliminary trial:cancerpreventionresearch.aa...
No other supplements have even survived similar scrutiny.
Read this about curcumin and prostate cancer:prostatecancer.news/2019/04...
The reason epidemiological studies (the people of India) are not a good way to judge turmeric's effect is that there are many other differences ( huge dietary differences other than turmeric, microbiome, genetics, air, sunlight, etc.) between the Indian and the population in western countries.
I'm glad it helps your joints.
I really don't know. The FDA warning on biotin said they couldn't determine a safe timing for it. It is especially difficult for fat-soluble molecules because they can be stored in our fat and liver and released at any time. In the blood, curcumin never gets to therapeutic levels and is metabolized rapidly, but many years of ingestion may lead to some accumulation in tissues - who knows?
I agree with you about the difficulty in doing dietary studies. The MEAL trial did a great job of surmounting those difficulties. You may be interested in reading about how they did it:
bjui-journals.onlinelibrary...
There have been a number of RCTs on supplements.
What supplements do I take?
The only things I take are Essiac tincture and CBD oil.
I stopped ADT early 2017 after just two months due to suffering from awful side effects, but by mid 2017 I've been feeling just fine.
My PSA bounces up and down a bit, but is still close to what it was when I was first diagnosed in December 2016.
My latest PSMA PET scan taken this year showed a marked reduction in distant metastases compared to my PSMA PET scan taken December 2016.
I know things might change in the future, but if they do I have agreed with my oncologist to try another two months of ADT to see if we can get a repeat of the last 4 years.
vivamais7• in reply to
Please let me know what's your Essiac tincture and CBD protocol: trade mark and dosage.
Thank you.
• in reply tovivamais7
Herbaltech Essiac tincture bottled in New Zealand about one fifth of the supplied squeeze dropper twice a day.
Endoca 2000mg CBD in 100ml bottle, about one third of supplied squeeze dropper twice a day.
I do not take any supplements at all. In my opinion it is unrealistic and only wishful thinking that there would be any shortcuts that could replace or improve normal healthy food.
You don't even accept the possibility that something outside of SOC might help?
Do Not Question..just blindly believe what SOC salesman tell you. They just feel threatened by anyone raising any other possibility ...They want you to shut up and buy their BS because its a matter of huge profits for them...There is more than enough evidence about benefits in PCa of:
(1) Resveratrol (Dark Red Grapes,Munakka Grapes, Peanuts)
(2) Sulforaphanes ( Radishes, Cauliflower, Brocolli, Cabbage)
(3) Anti oxidant/Anti Inflammatories (Turmeric, Garlic, Ginger, Onion
(4) Vit D3+ K2 and Ionic Zinc with Quercetin.
(5) Green and Black Tea Blend (EGCG and Polyphenols)
If Turmeric is useless WHY major cancer Centers in USA have a separate dept to research Turmeric? MD Anderson /Johns Hopkins etc) They are trying to find a way to sell its special prep for $10000 a month but has not succeeded yet. In the mean time, their paid agents on forums spread the lie that nothing else helps even a bit other than their masters' expensive, new lutamides etc. Its all about profits.. not about you and your family. Do Not listen to SOC pimps who wants to stop you from considering other beneficial interventions along with judicious use of medical treatments. Of Course, we need JUDICIOUS use of medical treatments PLUS other complementary things to get best outcome.
He didn't say that. He said healthy food is better than supplements. Foods contain micronutrients that bottles of pills don't. Our bodies evolved and our microbiomes co-evolved to get benefit from actual foods. Overwhelming our bodies and microbiomes with one concentrated chemical or another shifts the biochemistry of our bodies in unknown ways, often causing negative feedback (our biochemistry is heavily reliant on negative feedback). In other words, based on "reason" or some lab tests, the unintended consequence of taking a supplement may be to cause the opposite of your intention (see Vitamin E, as one example). A little humility is required - you are not smarter than millions of years of evolution - you will probably only outsmart yourself.
Supplements are drugs. Just because they are unregulated does not make them any the less drugs. People with cancer should be more wary than the general population of using drugs of unknown safety. Cancer is already a burden on biochemistry, making the body more susceptible to injury. Drugs should be tested in carefully designed clinical trials (like SELECT). No one believes we have all the answers, but medical science has come up with a very good process for evaluating evidence. What some Luddites on this site call "evidence" would be laughed at by a first year medical student.
I agree with much of what you say, but perhaps not all.
Many on this and other forums post Pubmed type studies about the positive effects of everything from boron to resveratol to IV-C to ground ginger powder, and all points in between. Those studies are all conducted by highly credentialed scientists. Why are such studies being conducted, and so many of them (many seemingly reported very good results en vitro and/or en vivo) if none of the results will ever make their way into mainstream medicine?
Many reasons. Mostly, grad students trying to get published doing something quick and dirty. But remember, it is only recently that all this became so widely available to patients. When a researcher publishes, say, a lab study in a peer-reviewed journal, it is published for other researchers, not patients. Other researchers understand that 99% of preclinical lab studies (in vitro and in vitro) do not pan out in the clinical arena. It is part of a process called "hypothesis testing." ALL research starts with the "null hypothesis" which is that X will have NO effect. Usually, they are unable to falsify that. So all those early preclinical studies are just used as screeners. It allows scientists to eliminate the myriad possibilities out there.
Almost all of the studies published in pubmed are inconsequential. The reason is something called the "level of evidence." It's something you almost never see mentioned by enthusiastic research-posters on this forum, or by anyone (like Life Extensions or Herbalife) that makes billions of dollars selling snake oil to desperate patients. What it means is this: there are many research techniques, but the probability that any study will be confirmed in larger, better-designed studies increases when it has certain characteristics. At the top, called Level 1a, are large, duplicated randomized clinical trials (RCTs). An example would be abiraterone for mHSPC, which was proven in two very large RCTs (LATITUDE and STAMPEDE) to prolong time to castration-resistance and extend life over ADT alone. At the bottom, called Level 5, are expert opinions ("Snuffy Myers believes..."), and the kind of bench research (in vitro and in vivo) that you referred to.
cebm.ox.ac.uk/resources/lev...
Most of the top journals require a discussion of the level of evidence within the study (it is usually not in the abstract). Almost all of the studies you and I have read state that "this is for hypothesis-testing only" and "larger, long-term, prospective studies are required." Usually, when those larger studies are done, there is no benefit found (and safety issues arise).
Your points are well taken. Of course, the very expensive nature of the premier clinical trials tends to rule out cheap substances and generic off label medicines as suitable candidates because the return on investment is not high enough unless they can be altered and patented in some way.
How was it ever finally established that there was a linkage between tobacco usage and cancer? Surely not in the premier clinical setting described. I know there were decades of debate, and it makes intuitive sense, but was it ever "proven" using such methods? Or did the tobacco companies finally just cave?
Government provides quite a bit of funding for testing. Vitamin E and Selenium, for example, were tested in a large NIH/NCI study. The Department of Defense, oddly enough, has a sizeable budget devoted to promising research projects that cannot get funded by private sources. Other countries, Canada, the UK, Germany, Australia, etc. also fund many such studies. Sometimes large teaching hospitals get grants. PCF and other NGOs fund many such projects.
But private for-profit companies also have an interest. For example, the RCTs that proved pomegranate juice is useless for PCa was funded by POM Wonderful.
When Congress sharply cut back NIH funding a few years ago, several enterprising researchers took to the internet on "Go Fund Me" type platforms. I remember contributing money to the first BAT trials.
In my experience, hot prospects usually find funding for research, There is a lot of incentive for a young researcher to make his mark by proving that some commonly available substance is the next big cure. For example, there are 29 clinical trials listed for metformin, even though it is available as a cheap generic.
The tobacco/lung cancer connection is interesting. Obviously, humans could not ethically be treated with smoking. There is something called the "Bradford Hill checklist" that is sometimes used when direct proof of causation cannot be ethically obtained:
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
As you see, he argues that the strength and specificity of the association is overwhelming.
Oddly, I read a few months ago that two tobacco companies have clinical trials going for Covid-19 related products based on tobacco strains. It did make me wonder how much cancer research they had done over the years, if only for defensive purposes.
I take calcium and d3. Also a multivitamin. Adjusted diet to include more fruits and vegetables. I have no idea if they help but i assume these are things that can't really do any harm ezcept for the mental effect of me looking at it saying geez I'm tired of eating this stuff.
We have bone Mets so my Hudson takes Yarrow Ultra Bone up
Vegan diet, D3, B12, RSO
Good Question..I take Calcium Citrate, D3, and K2 (MK7 type)...for new bone growth. Apparently the calcium buildup in my heart has dramatically Decreased, I believe that’s from the K2 (MK7)...it’s a mediator for aiming calcium out of the blood stream and other arteries like the heart and towards the bones. I also take co-enzyme Q10, there is evidence that it suppresses PC growth. I would need to find the many trials but it’s doable.
How much calcium?
Why B12?
healthunlocked.com/advanced....
-Patrick
• in reply topjoshea13
I take an acid reducer for GERD. I am concerned that that could induce B12 deficiency which could lead to cognitive impairment so I scarf B12 sublingual tablets, but not every day.
Birm, MCP, Fucoidan, Turkey Tail, berberine, quercitin, green tea, cat whisker tea, relora. Probiotic, flaxseed powder.
Where's Billy when we need him?
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Thursday 11/26/2020 5:55 PM EST- HTD
Chocolate chip ice cream (two scoops).....
Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.
j-o-h-n Thursday 11/26/2020 5:57 PM EST- HTD
Why don’t you just test it in yourself? Get a PSA after 5 days off the patch and then get another after 5 days with the patch (or vice versa)?
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