Ostarine: Has anyone on this forum had... - Advanced Prostate...

Advanced Prostate Cancer

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Ostarine

mrscruffy profile image

Has anyone on this forum had any experience with Ostarine or any other SARM? And if so what were the results?

92 Replies

Still researching them---for many obvious reasons as their action on the Androgen Receptor, but does not act like a typical Sex Hormone like the steroid Testosterone. I have other questions--and looking for answers in research journals.

Nal

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to Nalakrats

I read a paper that stated that in some cases cancer cells that were becoming ADT resistant have become non resistant to ADT. Seemed like a small sample but interesting anyways. That would be a bonus as I am looking to build muscle and lose a few lbs

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to mrscruffy

Ostarine is the one SARM most studied--it appears to me, and there is data that indicates it to be a great replacement for Enzaludamide. And for that matter even 1st line ADT. Problems seem to be dose related--as there does not seem to be Dosage Studies, that would entail a significant trial. You can buy these from Companies, that only provide SARM's as research molecules. I see where you can buy at 60 capsules at a time--labeled for research only. There is no FDA approval obviously. And about 10 of them can be found.

Look, I probably have many hours of research to say more on this subject---as this is pretty new to me at this time. I have heard of SARM's but did not know their function. But I know now they can be Agonists or Antagonists to the Androgen Receptor of the Pca cells without affecting the normal balance of Male Hormone makeup, which would be T, DHT, and E2. So from what I am seeing so far, is SARM's--with Ostarine being most studied, as most of the rest are used by Muscle Builders and the effect in muscle growth appears to be dramatic, without the need of Testosterone---though both working together is an added plus.

I would love to personally give Ostarine a try--but my Science background says no at this time. I will reach out to my Pca Research Team at the Levine Cancer Institute--for their input.

Nal

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to Nalakrats

Thanks for doing the heavy lifting Nal, kind of the same things I read. My personal trainer is the one that suggested it as she deals with them on a regular basis and knows dosage ammounts and length of usage. As with all things she recommends the doctor must OK it

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to mrscruffy

What dosing is recommended?

Nal

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to Nalakrats

10 mg, but there is a cycle involved, need to find out about that

Is this part of a clinical trial? Is he using it for muscle wasting or for the cancer?

You may find these useful:

academic.oup.com/jcem/artic...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

jci.org/articles/view/146777

tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10....

journals.lww.com/co-support...

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to Tall_Allen

My interest is purely in muscle building and weight loss as body builders traditionally use them. Anything else would be a bonus

I used Ostarine with a modified BAT program. My PSA went to zero (starting from 0.17 before BAT). I was using around 10 mg/day of Ostarine. I switched to Rad-140. Appears to be more anabolic (supposedly 90:1 anabolic/androgenic). I used 5-35 mg/day and it didn't appear to push up my PSA from zero. PSA is a good marker, but just a marker, the real test will be when I have PSMA-PET scans.

I'm also looking into adding nandrolone and Winstrol. Winstrol has a very good anabolic/androgenic ratio but is harder on the liver (according to my doctor - he used to be a bodybuilder). He's pushing me towards nandrolone. I worked out the androgenic addition from 100 mg/month of nandrolone and 10 mg/day of Winstrol (only taking this during the ADT phase, Deca and Testosterone give me a crazy boost during the high testosterone phase).

I'm experimenting with BAT but trying to modify it for a better outcome, better pulse of androgens (shorter half-life than cypionate), and adding substances to prevent sarcopenia (official line, wink, wink). The government has conducted a number of trials on BAT. Seems that is has good resensitization for Xtandi and it might hold off CRPC. Plus there is the QoL issue.

My main concern with BAT was the ADT phase. A few years ago I did an ADT like program and lost almost all of my discretionary muscle mass in just a few weeks. This time, with SARMs I didn't lose a thing. My desire is to create a program that gives me all of the benefits of BAT yet puts me in an anabolic environment 100% of the time, or even a crazy high anabolic environment during the high testosterone phase and then holding gains during the ADT phase (too early to tell for sure but this already seems to be the situation). I started this in September so still tweaking and monitoring. After I get some more data I'm going to push the boundaries until it breaks. Then I can back off and I'll know how close I am to the edge.

My modified BAT program. I'm going with the one-month standard cycle length. There are biological reasons to keep at one month or perhaps even less. So I'm going to keep this cycle length for 6 months and if all is still going well, change the length to 3 or 3 1/2 weeks. I'm also cycling Bicalutamide, Xtandi, Zytiga, and perhaps Ketoconazole. Long cycles of each. Months. We know that if one agent is used, eventually desensitization occurs in most if not all men. So then we switch to another. I'm wondering what happens if we switch BEFORE we are desensitized to the agent? Can we switch back and restart the "clock"?

The chart is quite busy. Still a work in progress. If and when I think I can define a nice set of parameters I'm going to clean it up and distribute a free short manual/paper.

I plotted LDL, HDL, lean mass, fat mass, and a number of others. I removed those since they weren't adding much and don't show much correlation (yet) other than a huge boost in lean mass during the start of my first BAT high testosterone cycle. Note that from 10/2019-9/2021 I was on 400 mg/week of testosterone cypionate. So the mass I put on during BAT wasn't simply having an anabolic environment for the first time - I've been in a very anabolic environment for 2 years. My PSAs finally went up. Scans were negative. But because of the PSA increase, I went from SPT (supra physiological testosterone) to BAT. I welcomed the break from SPT. Continuous high testosterone can lead to health issues.

BAT
Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_ in reply to RSH1

Bicalutamide maneuvers update:

First period, 10 days @ 7x50mg/week, PSA 0.17 -> 0.09

Second period, 11 days @ 4x50mg/week, PSA 0.09 -> 0.06 (my estimation was for 0.056)

Third period (just started) @4x25mg/week, estimated PSA after 10-14 days 0.04.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Justfor_

Great results! Please keep updating (good or bad).

I hope they continue being great. If we can reduce the dosage, all the better for avoidance of CRPC and sides.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to RSH1

We need as a group---those that are using T, and doing their own Modified BAT--to somehow compare notes, and this includes Justfor and others such as jac_j_sp, and if I missed anyone I am sorry! The reason I think we need to put our heads together is that you all are doing things that those that do standard BAT and have 65% failure cannot do. The Doctors cannot experiment on their patients[Usually]. But we do have that 35% rate of excellent results. We know one thing from the work that Dr. Denmeade--and specifically my research Onc. know, is that better outcomes occur with those that have certain Mutations---like BRCA-2.RSH1 himself--has used multiple protocols--and there may be something positive in his use of different protocols. I.E. RSH1 has injected 400 mgs weekly--I do not think I could do that, but there is a protocol that has not gotten enough attention. This is the Last protocol by Dr. Morgentaler--->probably the Father of T use against Pca. The author of Testosterone For Life. His last protocol, used on 27 men before He retired from treating Pca, using a new Protocol on men with less than 6 months to live--entailed Injections of 400 mgs of T every 2 weeks for 2 months-->then one month of Daily Xtandi. This 3-month cycle was repeated, and at the time of Dr. Morgentalers' retirement, this past June---> 1 man died of a heart attack, not related to T. One man died at age 95--->just old age--but was kept alive for 2 years instead of 6 months left to live--and the rest are into their 4th year, and are still kicking.

So there are things as to BAT that we need as a group, surely need to disseminate not only to each other but to the whole group. How I do not know--any suggestions?

Nal.

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to Nalakrats

I have BRCA2 and will keep the group informed as to progress or lack there of

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Nalakrats

Good suggestion Nal.Perhaps a Facebook group?I agree, it would be wonderful to compare notes. I've been convinced since early on that BAT is the way to go (my early on is only 2-3 years ago). And I'm convinced that the conventional BAT isn't optimal.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to RSH1

Yes, it is not--and Morgentaler had a 90% positive on the protocol I outlined--and these were all men with less than 6 months to live--he could not publish as he did not run proper trials, so his work is all anecdotal--which is fine with me---every discovery started out Anecdotal.

Nal

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to Nalakrats

Nal, like the idea of a FB group. I spoke with my trainer and she clued me in to dosages and cycles. dosages can be from 10mg a day to 25mg a day with a break every 1 to 3 months. She suggested start with10mg on a month long cycle and see what transpires

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to mrscruffy

I try to keep it at 10 mg. A break makes sense but I wonder how much of her reasoning stems from testosterone inhibition vs. how much from liver, kidney and lipid issues?

I built breaks into the modified BAT program.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to RSH1

What has become your favorite protocol more on the anti-pca side than the muscle-building side?

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Nalakrats

Hormonal manipulation. I have thought this almost from day 1.

To be clear, I value muscle highly, both personally because of a deep-seated "men are strong and must protect" stereotype that I grew up with. The protect, chivalry, work, provide, yada yada stereotype that many of us old-timers have. Even though I recognize it I can't easily get rid of it. And I don't want to.

But perhaps more important to most of us, muscle mass, strength, and activity are associated with better cancer outcomes. Lots of research. Biologically very plausible. Possibly confounded by other variables (e.g. diet). However, study after study comes to the same conclusion. Sarcopenia is bad. Muscle mass is good and more is better. Not only from a cancer standpoint but also for many other health-related areas.

For 6 months I did estrogen-based ADT. PSA went to zero. Scans were negative. Then I switched to SPT. Two years of it. Scans were negative but PSA slowly went up. I switched to the modified BAT. Only two cycles so far so not enough data points to judge. But so far my PSA has gone up during the SPT phase and then dropped to zero during the ADT phase. My wife has been amazed at how closely I have predicted each PSA measurement. My MO thinks that I am doing extremely well, particularly compared to predictions.

I am taking Zytiga and plan to cycle it with Xtandi and Ketoconazole. With long off periods. I also think they should be dropped during the short SPT phase of each BAT cycle. As you know they are all hormonal "ADT type" drugs.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to RSH1

I reported on DR. Morgentaler's latest protocol---with exacting numbers and time frames--can you list yours. If you cycle all 3 what are the time frames of the ADT's? What is long off periods in terms of real-time. What did your zero PSA go up to when on SPT? If someone wanted to follow your protocol, there is not a Layout of Times for Injections, Times/lengths of ADT's in what sequence--what causes you to go on or off--what are the numbers in terms of measurements--and then there is the inclusion, of SARM's. I am not catching the scientific method. I am outside of the boxes of my doctors, but everything I do I can write a thesis on. I understand you are trying to get more data points.

So if I want to follow RSH1--->there is no roadmap.

There would have to be considerations of a multitude of variables:

HS

CRPC

Gene Mutations

Pathologies, that are different than Adenocarcinoma[about a half-dozen]

Age

Comorbidities

Etc./I.E men that had been low T all their lives/before Pca Et. Al.

Do not take this wrong---But you are still [N=1]---keep posting--your info is valuable.

But there is nothing one can follow and possibly replicate--as you keep moving the goalposts.

Nal

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Nalakrats

Yes. Definitely N of 1. I include this disclaimer many times in the book I'm writing that discusses my BAT program. But it is what it is. If someone follows part or all of it or perhaps looks into conventional BAT or intermittent ADT, it's their decision to take the risk. For some guys I've met, they will not continue ADT or chemo for the same reasons I gave, and it's take a risk or die. At the very least I hope to give them something to try, rather than just accept death.

My charts cover my PSA. My PSA went to zero during lead-in ADT (6 months - but could likely be shortened to 2 months), up slowly during 2 years of constant high testoterone (400 mg/cypionate a week) - long high testosterone is completely optional but might be useful for some guys with zero or very low PSA. My PSA went up on both high testosterone BAT cycles and to zero during both low testosterone BAT cycles. I am using standard PSA tests and the minimum measurement is 0.1. I preferred ultrasensitive but haven't been able to have this done reliably. Plus weekly tests add up in cost and ultrasensitive is 4 times as expensive as standard.

I also plotted cholesterol, sleep, body composition, etc but took them off from the display since they don't add much info yet.

Very limited data. This program requires frequent PSA monitoring and cancer scans every 6 months (PSMA-PET?). I haven't figured out the best scan options. This is something that my MO or RO can help with. Any ideas?

I plan to talk about CRPC and NEPC and how they "might" be avoided or delayed on ABAT. And how ABAT might resensitize some men. There is some scientific evidence for avoidance. At least two government trials for resensitization.

I don't think that I can logically address age other than include some advice to reduce the Androgel to avoid stress. I can discuss comorbidities only from sarcopenia, bone health, and cardiovascular standpoints. Same for guys who were low T to begin with. Would starting with low T be an issue?

It is way, way, way too early for prime time. Someone can potentially look into what I am doing and try their own experimentation or perhaps incorporate something I've learned. But I can't stress this enough: it is a BIG RISK! And requires very frequent monitoring!

Without Russ clones, I'm not going to set a stake in the ground. So, for the time being, I'm going to be adjusting based on my scans and PSA. Eventually, I hope that will change and it becomes somewhat "set". Even then though I plan on cycling certain things for years and the N of 1 data won't show up for a long time. One of my goals is me. If I set a stake in the ground and I die, does anyone learn anything other than maybe a cautionary story that has people running to SOC? But I am dead and I don't care anymore. :)

There is tons of scientific method behind it. I've spent thousands of hours researching and talking with my NMD. I did that for months before I started. Some items I've been looking into for years. I plan on explanations in my book but mostly I want something actionable. I've found that most of us (including me as often as not) just kind of skim over technical babble and go for the meat. I'll write the technical stuff not only for the few who want it but also for myself for fun (I'm one of the rare geeks who enjoys writing and I used to do anything I could to write books during my engineering career).

Rough outline:

1. 28-day cycle

2. Day 1-9: Apply gel patches or pumps supplying daily 200 mg Androgel. Take 10 mg/day of Winstrol note 1. (I haven't started Androgel - I don't have the drug yet - so the 200 mg is my guess, I'll find out via testing how close the guess is)

3. Day 1: Take an AI. I take a 2.5 mg tablet of letrozole. Anastrozole or exemestane might be preferable but they give me insomnia and bloating. Inject monthly Lupron (still figuring out how to explain this and why and when it might not be needed).

4. Day 10-26: take 1 mg/day finasteride.

5. Day 25: Inject 100 mg nandrolone note 1.

6. Day 9-26: Take 10 mg/day of the SARM Rad-140 note 1.

7. Day 10-11: take 50 mg/day bicalutamide.

8. Day 11-26: Apply an estrogen patch (delivering 0.1 mg/day). I use Climara.

9. I am still deciding how to cycle Zytiga, Xtandi, Ketoconazole. My current thoughts are that they should be used one at a time (some kind of cycle) and used only during days 10-26. Each one should be used for maybe 4-6 cycles and then swapped out for a different one.

Note 1. These are optional and are included only for muscle building/bone loss mitigation.

Note2. I think that the cycle length should be varied. Perhaps 6 cycles of 28 days, then adjust to 25, then up to 31, etc. This is based on some speculation that hitting cancer’s “sweet spot” might eradicate it entirely. Even if this isn’t true I don’t think that adjusting the timing a little will have negative effects.

I don't know if BAT has any applications other than PCa. Frankly, they aren't my concern. Call me selfish but I'm spending my time working on my own condition and not things that may or may not have helped me decades ago.

Justfor_ profile image
Justfor_ in reply to RSH1

Us with an engineering background can't feel at ease riding the SoC-mobile. A vehicle without accelerator or break pedals, only clutch to an engine running at "universal" rpms, i.e., the equivalent of a donkey driven cart. There should be definitely something better to ride onto.

GeorgeGlass profile image
GeorgeGlass in reply to RSH1

I’m about ten pounds less right now, on orgovyx than when i was on lupron. My triglycerides and other lips are great though. I still have good muscle definition from exercise but not any bulk. I was 200 before starting adt in 2016. Then i changed my diet to mostly plant based with oatmeal nuts egg whites veggies fruits etc. I’m about 173 now. Height is just over 6 ft. Based on your readings, Do you think it would help longevity to eat more salmon, trout, nuts to get back near 180? I’m still athletic and exercise regularly, but i do have coronary artery disease with three small periphery arteries at about 40% plaque buildup. This heart thing is a genetic issue. I used to have an 8-1 triglycerides to hdl ratio. Add of this year, i got it to 1:1 with my strict diet.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to GeorgeGlass

Strength is highly correlated with PCa mortality. I want to keep my fat under 15% but I prioritize muscle mass. So I eat a lot of food and back off only if I get to the 15% mark.

You're at a great weight and your diet seems excellent. I'm 6' 3", 205 lbs, 15% bodyfat.

Awesome about your triglycerides! Mine have always been fairly low. Except when I overdid the fruit. I was eating about 6 lbs a day. My TG went way up. I think it was fructose so I backed off to 2 lbs of fruit a day. TG went back down to a low level.

I think you could probably add a little salmon and nuts and go up a little in lean weight. But you're in the tiny portion of people with good weight (by BMI I'm a little overweight).

GeorgeGlass profile image
GeorgeGlass in reply to RSH1

Thanks for your thoughts. I like to see what other people think. Sometimes i wonder if the sarcopinia is caused by the cancer spread and not the other way around. Do studies show that weakness and low muscle mass makes the cancer spread more easily? I did read an article last year that said collagen was like a defense barrier against cancer, but when it’s low, or tendons, ligaments and muscle are weak, it’s easier for the cancer to move around the body.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to GeorgeGlass

ADT certainly causes sarcopenia. It is exacerbated by us getting older. Sigh.Observational studies show that low muscle mass is a predictor of a worse outcome for PCa. I don't know about the spread in particular. Do you recall the collagen study (I'd like to add it to my list of links)?

Thanks.

GeorgeGlass profile image
GeorgeGlass in reply to RSH1

It was an article saying that strong collagen was protective against cancer. However, the study below says is good and bad:

link.springer.com/article/1...

starhospitals.in/site/colla...

Not sure, all I know is after I started working out seriously and got my nutrition right tumors shrunk and one disappeared. Anecdotal at best

Was that all you did, or was medicine involved? At what point in your journey did that occur?

I have been on Lupron/Zytiga for 5 years 7 months. Also did radiation. I have been working out hard for 1 1/2 years

That’s awesome

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Nalakrats

Coincidentally I saw this minutes after I finished my reply.

"For Prostate Cancer Survivors, Exercise is Medicine

Christina Dieli-Conwright, PhD, MPH

Harvard: Dana-Farber Cancer Institute

What this means for patients: Dr. Dieli-Conwright has shown that exercise significantly benefits patients with prostate cancer, including improving fitness and quality of life, reducing obesity and other metabolic problems, and reducing muscle wasting. Exercise is a key “prescription” for better outcomes.

The use of exercise to enhance the lives of people diagnosed with cancer dates back 100 years, when doctors noticed an inverse relationship between cancer mortality and “muscular work.” The field of exercise oncology has gained ground, especially in the last 10 years, as studies verified the many health benefits linked to consistent exercise. Much like diet, exercise is known to improve physical and mental quality of life for everyone, with very probable additional benefits to patients with prostate cancer. Today, exercise guidelines have been established for cancer survivorship, and include both aerobic and resistance exercise.

Dr. Dieli-Conwright reported on several clinical trials of exercise in patients with prostate cancer, especially among those undergoing ADT. Exercise interventions had multiple health benefits, including reduced waist circumference, greater lean mass, and improved fitness. Patients on active surveillance participating in high-intensity interval training had lower PSA levels and slower rise in PSA. Obese men saw improvements, such as a lower chance of developing type 2 diabetes. Overall, exercise should be considered paramount for patients seeking to optimize their health and quality of life during and after treatment. Future studies will help identify the most effective exercise “prescriptions” for prostate cancer survivors."

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to RSH1

Yes, I had already read this!

Nal

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Nalakrats

Exercise seems to be the best natural tool at our disposal. The catch is that it takes work and isn't glamorous.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to RSH1

By the way, I am confused about what you use for T. It seems that you have mentioned Injections--which we know to be 400 mgs T Cyp. I think you mentioned Androgel. And from my personal use in the past, I have used a Natural Compounded and even closer to what our bodies make--I have used a Nature Identical.There is cause to think that giving Nature Identical is what the Cancer Cells prefer and that the Injectable as well as the rub ons--are drugs to the cancer cells as they are different than what the body makes. Thoughts from an engineer, on my comments about Synthetics and Identicals????

Nal

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Nalakrats

I'm also confused. Over the years I have tried to get used to it. :)

Actually, I used cypionate injections for the last 2+ years. I used cypionate for the first couple of BAT cycles. Now it looks like I'll be using cypionate for the 3rd one also. I want to use Androgel but I don't have it yet (I expect to have it before the 4th cycle and I am greedily awaiting it). Half-life is so much better than cypionate. More expensive.

I think that natural bioidentical is better (or at least different molecularly) than synthetics. As an aside I loved the WHI (sarcasm). They spent millions and managed to prove that synthetic progesterone and horse-derived estrogen (oral nonetheless!) exacerbate cancer. The bozos somehow managed to wave their magic bozo wands and declared that all hormones cause cancer. And they didn't even prove that synthetic progesterone and horse estrogen aren't good for humans. If you look at the cancer data the numbers are ridiculously small. If you reran the dumb study (I hope that I don't give anyone ideas to waste more money on foolishness) you very well might get the opposite outcome. There were other glaring errors. Just a lesson in political spin. You can "prove" whatever you want.

Wow, what a disservice to humanity.

Back to the question. I think bioidentical is a safer bet. Cypionate is esterified to increase its solubility in oil, and allow for slower release once injected into the muscle. It is very close to bioidentical.

I'm going to try the Androgel to see if it will work for the levels I want. Time makes me cut corners. Something I have to work around.

If it works I'll talk to my NMD about compounding a testosterone gel. He's already mentioned that to me and did it for my wife a few years back. Worst case, Androgel is the same for all intents and purposes and I waste some money having a bio-identical gel compounded. But better safe than sorry.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to RSH1

FYI: Androgel got me to 2386 ng/dl (last lab). I used it last cycle and I went to 1890 but increased it a little. I think 2000 is about the right level for the high phase of testosterone so I'm going to dial it back some.

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

I am retired so I have tons of time and my vanity keeps me working out.

GeorgeGlass profile image
GeorgeGlass in reply to RSH1

Excellent.

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to Nalakrats

I am looking at this as a weight loss, muscle building protocol. Any benefit to my PC is an added bonus

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to mrscruffy

At 78 I am looking to kill cancer cells and any gain to my Physical Attributes, of which I still have much would be my extra plus.

Nal

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

My trainer says there are some serious SE's if you don't cycle or take too much. She uses it sporadically as well as do some of her clients. Best part about having a trainer is she is a pre-med student at ASU and I am mentoring her so she has a pretty good handle on my condition, and its free

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to mrscruffy

For testosterone: My doctor told me that most of the sides are hematocrit and liver-related. But also some additional cardiac issues but those usually show up in lipid profiles.

I was monitoring my labs. Using AIs and 5ARIs. No issues. No change in any parameter other than SHBG which dropped an order of magnitude (I was very happy with that and it should make BAT more effective). Also, LH went to zero. Again, good for me. Probably not if you want kids.

Also, there is the testosterone suppression issue. That's a big one for most guys. Personally, I view this "problem" as a big positive for me. I don't want more kids. I adjust my testosterone exogenously and don't see that ever stopping. On the ADT phases, I don't want any endogenous T. Unfortunately my T will probably recover. Might be months but I need a plan today to address it. In the meantime, bicalutamide and Zytiga should help. Perhaps Lupron in the future?

For SARMs a lot of the same sides. I don't have enough experience with this to know what will happen. I built in cycles to try to reduce/eliminate sides.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to mrscruffy

ASU? I live 10 miles from it. What is her name or how do I contact them?Thanks

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

I will see her for breakfast tomorrow, I will see if she is taking new clients

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to mrscruffy

I made an FB group: facebook.com/groups/8909068...

BAT therapy for prostate cancer.

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

just did my request to join

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to mrscruffy

I think I added you. Could you check and let me know?

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

yep

Purple-Bike profile image
Purple-Bike in reply to RSH1

RSH1, I think my very basic newbie BAT questions fit better here than on fb so I hope it'sOK to do it here.

I'm all for hitting PC early, but when starting a new treatment I would still like to know something basic why it can estimated to be beneficial in HS when I understand the trials are all on the CR. I am N1M1, NED and BRCA2+.

You are injecting the 400 MG dose weekly, others bi-weekly. When I read the trials, it is every four weeks, with near castrate T levels achieved by day 28, see below. Doing it more often will only give castrate level in the off month I am sure there's a rationale for that but it would be good to hear the basic behind it.

I am visiting a country where I can get hold off T cypionate without prescription but only 200 MG. If I go for it I will simply have to get two injections at a time could there be anything wrong with that other than the inconvenience?.

"This study enrolled 16 patients to initially receive testosterone cypionate 400 mg intramuscularly on day 1 and oral etoposide 100 mg on days 1 to 14 of each cycle, repeating cycles every 28 days.(25) This dose and formulation of testosterone was chosen because it produces supraphysiologic testosterone levels (>1500 ng/mL) within the first days after injection and a subsequent decline to normal testosterone levels after 2 weeks, returning to near-castrate testosterone levels by 28 days"

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Purple-Bike

Don't sell yourself short. If you are interested in BAT, join the FB group. Do you have a FB account?

I don't see anything wrong with using 2 vials of 200 mg. Most of the time my pharmacy will only do 200 mg vials. So I use two. If it was an issue I think my doctor would have said something.

I'm injecting once a month. I'm using bicalutamide after day 10 so that I can be essentially castrate. As an aside, I'm going to be using Androgel soon and possibly a compounded cream. I want shorter half-lives and to get rid of the bicalutamide. This morning I read that Danmeade (a BAT researcher who prefers RCTs), wants to go to compounded creams. Same reasons.

You might have been thinking about my constant high testosterone therapy. For 2 years I was injecting 400 mg each week. My PSA started going up so I switched to BAT.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to RSH1

The FB group is private.

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach in reply to Nalakrats

I am on modified BAT, just finishing 3rd cycle of 8 weeks On T-cyp 400 every 2 weeks. Then one month off (no ADT added yet). My natural T was 80 at end of last cycle. PSA behaving fairly well, from .08 to .09. Will add ADT to the off month if PSA hits 0.20. Probably one shot of Firmagon at 120 mg. I am still HSPC N1M0. My gut feeling is that original BAT cycling was too rapid to allow for full population dynamics to rebalance to an equilibrium. But who knows?

Response of my severe sarcopenia to SPT cycles has been very favorable. Better response to exercise even though I don’t go as heavy with squats and deadlifts due to my degenerate spine/disc disease that ADT and sarcopenia caused. Will get DEXA next month to assess ASMM and index.

Appreciate sharing on this topical area. SARMs will likely be big for those on ADT in the future. However, I’m not inclined to do anything on FB.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to MateoBeach

A lot to unwind: As you know sarcopenia is reversible. Requires dedicated exercise, and of course, the T injections help. It appears you know what to do as to the gym work. For your degenerative Disc/spine issues---you can read if you have not my Post on RFT, which was posted recently. I had about 14 months ago RFT from C-2 --->C-7.That is 5 levels at one time done in 25 minutes. To this day I have no movement issues and no pain. I am also a victim of spine/disk disease--->mostly due to many years of Athletics, and over 50 years of weight lifting--and you can add in ADT, as a secondary cause---though I vacation and go on and off. This takes me to this Friday--->as My spine issues hit a few months ago at my S-1, L-5, L-4. I had nerve blocks over the last 2 years but the time of relief was getting shorter and shorter. So In 2 days, I will be doing bi-lateral RFT--6 nerves 2 on each side of my L-4->S-1. This will clear the pain. The nice thing about this procedure is that you can do it as often as necessary. Most get a year out of it, and some like me can get 2-3 years, before having to redo. The more you exercise the small muscles around the area being treated, after the procedure the longer you can go, without needing a repeat. Any questions PM me.

As to your Protocol for BAT. You are just about using the one developed by Dr. Morgantaler that he recently developed. The Grandfather of T treatment who dates back with Liebowitz--some 20 years---just before retiring---and If you did not read what I wrote, took 27 men with less than 6 months to live--and injected them with 400 mgs of T every 2 weeks for 2 months---and then used Xtandi for one month. He wanted to use Pills instead of Injections, so the patient would be off when the next 3-month cycle began. He does not have an issue with using Casodex-->but would probably recommend 150 mgs per day for a month. In communication with him, I did not get an answer to why he chose Xtandi--other than it would be more protective to the AR's of the Cancer Cells that were left after each 2 month T cycle. I am happy to report that 24 of the original 27 are into year 4 after being given a 6-month death sentence. A few passed.

I think your thinking is right or near to the idea, that in regular BAT there was not enough exposure time to SPT--before hitting the Anti-androgen for 30 days.

This protocol Morgentaler announced before his retirement--so there is a kind of blueprint to follow. If I were you I would use the Anti-Androgen in the 3rd month.

Nal

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Nalakrats

Is there research about longer lengths? I've read a little research about shorter lengths.

Nalakrats profile image
Nalakrats in reply to RSH1

Real patients, treated by a doctor, who has been using T for 20 years is as good as we can attach to for info.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to MateoBeach

I thought that a longer cycle would be preferable but then I stumbled across research which indicated a very short cycle might be best. 4 weeks or even less.

Do you have any ideas for a forum? I don't think that HU is ideal for BAT talk. It needs its own separate group. But perhaps a page on HU devoted specifically to BAT? Still seems a little problematic with potentially off-topic comments.

By the way, I'm also HSPC N1M0. And I think that my healing time when I was on high testosterone was fast (subjective impressions).

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

I like the idea of a FB forum, could be private if needed

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach in reply to RSH1

As another HS N1M0 or is it M? On modified BAT similar to Morgentaler on 3 month cycles. We are way out-of-the-box. Agree it is best not to confuse the more typical APC men on the HU forum with our unproven regimens. I try to avoid FB altogether because they are so toxic to so many. But do not know of an alternative private forum. Ideas welcome. Paul

A newbie on BAT, I find trials are on MCRPC. Is there reason to believe it is effective on MHSPC when No Evidence of Disease? I am BRCA2+

Depends---right now, seems like the innovators of new protocols or revising current ones are what is going on. Yes, we have men now that are HS---RSH1, PATRICK, are some examples. For more info, contact me, or any of the guys in this thread.

Nal

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to Purple-Bike

I think it is. I'm HS. I think I'm M0. Some docs that might be of interest:

clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show...

ascopubs.org/doi/abs/10.120...

clincancerres.aacrjournals....

I have about 70 more. Most of them aren't for HSM1. Some are but I don't have time to wade through them at the moment.

MateoBeach profile image
MateoBeach in reply to RSH1

I had a consult with Schweitzer to convince my MO to support me on my modified BAT use for HS PC. He gave standard answer “only appropriate in a clinical trial”, the added that it would be unlikely to be harmful for me if carefully monitored. So I am on it with my MO being onboard. Your last link on rapid cycling is interesting. Had not seen that one.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to MateoBeach

Nice that you got the MO on board. I'm on my own other than NMD support for drugs. My MO doesn't even discuss outside-the-box stuff with me. She's nice and smart but she just smiles and tells me to do what I do.

I'm going to extend this cycle. My PSA didn't go to zero (I thought it had but I must have read an old lab report). I think it will go to zero in a week or so. Even if it doesn't, it's improved over the starting value and I'll stick with this for a while.

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

Yes my MO is great he is also a director at the treatment center. My last MO was not so adventurous. I like that we can talk man to man and discuss out of the box treatments without him being medically liable for stupid shit I may do, he is a breath of fresh air

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to RSH1

About the desensitization issue: I talked to my MO. She agrees about the desensitization BUT she said that it is possible that by switching hormonal interference drugs before I'm resistant to any given one, I might become resistant to both drugs even faster than if I had taken one to failure, followed by the next one.

She stressed that she doesn't know that I would do worse. Just as I don't know that I would do better. She has a very reasonable approach and it is making me reexamine my desensitization plan.

My MO is extremely smart and she's one of those people that makes you feel good about yourself. If I weren't married, I think I'd have a crush... (I told my wife this and we agreed that we would be fighting for my MO's affections)

In your profile, I see that you are seeing Dr. Dave. Does she help with the muscle/cancer? Is she strictly SOC or does she practice some cutting-edge stuff also?

This is the entire history of my cancer journey. Started with RP in 12/2018. That is when I found out that instead of a local, no problem, Gleason 3+4 I had a spread, big problem, Gleason 4+5 cancer.

ADT, SPT, and BAT history

I started mk-677 and mk-2866 (Ostarine) 3 weeks ago.

I started ADT (eligard) 5 months ago and had 4 infusions of Docetaxel. The last was 2 months ago.

Results of the sarms are inconclusive atm. The 'treatments' have left me fatigued with a little leg edema. Muscle mass is similar ie lean athletic. I have gained 1 kg but that would be water from edema in my legs.

If I was to 'guess' the effects of the sarms I would say it is easier to maintain lean muscle. Any gains at this stage I would attribute to training. I can eat more and slightly less healthily than before while maintaining lean muscle mass. i.e there is less negative impact due to poor diet. For example every night I can eat 3 pieces of bread with peanut butter and honey on them and not gain weight. Something I would rarely do before. My body fat percentage would be around 14%.

I exercise around 80 minutes a day. Combination of running and weights.

No negative effects at this stage.

My aim is to try to get my fitness back to where it was 6 months ago. My body looks the same, but cardio fitness has suffered as Im anemic and I have lost a lot of endurance. In 5 weeks I will finish this sarms cycle and evaluate further.

What are you hoping to achieve? How are your workouts and overall fitness habits? Too often guys turn to a product of which little is known when working a little harder will do the same thing.

Do you live in the US? Is Ostarine available to you? Reliable sources of illegal substances can be a challenge for some.

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to London441

I lift heavy 3-4 days a week and have been for 16 months and my nutrition is spot on. I have made great gains but I would like to make bigger gains and not struggle with my weight so much.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

I would agree, and I do agree in the general sense. But ADT is zero T. I worked out like a beast during ADT. Then I took time off. Then whole body workouts. High protein, low, 2 a days, 3, 1. BFR. Day on/day off. Personal trainers.. Nutritionist.. On and on. Didn't matter. I lost a lot of fat but also lost 30 lbs of muscle.

My experience using SARMs and other anabolic things is that I can maintain while my T is zero.

Endurance fitness hasn't decreased this time around. Strength is much improved. Lean mass went way up but on zero T my hope is to just maintain some of the gains.

Tomorrow ends zero T. First a shot of Deca. Then T. I anticipate crazy gains. Then ADT so plateau until next cycle. Hopefully sarcopenia and bone loss isn't in the near future.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to RSH1

The only way you could lose 30 lbs of muscle while giving your best effort on ADT is if you had it to lose, so to speak.

Now apparently you’re going to supplement not with ostarine but with steroids, pseudo BAT, might you say? Is this under medical supervision? Very ambitious, risky too.

I sincerely hope it works for you, but I suspect you may be a bit greedy for your condition.

By all means keep us posted though!

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

I had the 30 lbs sort of. That was pretty much 100% of my non-discretionary muscle. I dropped from 190 to 135. I'm 6' 3" so ouch! Since then I've rebounded to a bit over 200. My strength to mass ratio is higher than it has been since I was 22.

My wife and I discussed what was happening to me during the 9 months of (estrogen-based) conventional ADT and we agreed that between that and death, death was preferential for me (I assume that many if not most people would choose differently). So I started 400 mg/week cypionate injections. When I started I was assured that I would be dead in a matter of months but I took the plunge and used the plunger. I monitored closely and was ready to bail and look into contingency plans. Instead of weeks or months, I got 2 years out of it before my PSA started increasing. The last cancer scans were negative.

So, the new program is quite risky, but I don't see many options right now. If my greed leads to my demise, so be it. I don't want that to be the outcome but I've made my peace. Only two cycles in but my PSA has gone to zero during the zero T phase of both cycles. During the first one I only used SARMs but during the second I used SARMs, Deca, and Winstrol.

I'm doing SARMs, Deca, and Winstrol. Sort of under medical supervision but pretty much 100% my plan and my monitoring - and my responsibility. I have talked to my MO about it. She's rather hands-off unless something is SOC. I bounce ideas off another doctor but he's not experienced in prostate cancer. But he is very experienced with anabolics.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to RSH1

I admire your courage, daring, foolishness whatever one wants to call it. But how did all that training result in 6’3”/ 135? That defies logic-unless of course you’d been taking supplemental testosterone previously.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

I wasn't taking anything. No PEDs. No testosterone. Zilch.

I would guess that everybody reacts a little differently to ADT. In my case it was horrible from a muscle standpoint. I didn't want to gain any fat so I dropped my calories. That could explain some of the muscle loss. I don't think it explains all of it though. I was still averaging over 2000 cals a day. I only average a couple hundred more today. Crudely working it out, worst case I should have dropped maybe 10 lbs total. I've decreased my cals below 2000 many times in my life with some fat loss but very little if any muscle loss.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to RSH1

Interesting. you are supplementing T because you won’t tolerate the side effects of suppression, damning the torpedoes so to speak. Quality of life moved to the front.

Meanwhile, I would probably never do what you’re doing, yet I eat maybe 3500 calories on a light day. 5’ 9”, 175, 20% body fat. It takes a ridiculous amount of exercise to maintain this but I don’t mind a bit.

Super elevated LDL cholesterol but high HGL and low triglycerides also.

I eat as I always have, healthy with a bit of crap here and there, likely too many calories overall. Almost no carbs but plenty of fats. Do I care? Hell no! If I’m to attain my goal of dying of something else first cardiovascular disease is my best bet, as for so many of us. I can’t give up my muscles for so called health.

So really we’re just 2 guys on a deceptively similar track I guess. Be sure to tell us how it’s going.

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

A lot of calories! Keep it up. Exercising must be what keeps the fat off.

I'm not supplementing T to reduce side effects of suppression. Rather I was on continuous high T so that I could reduce the androgen insensitive cancer cell population. I almost certainly suppressed my endogenous production a long time ago. LH was zero over a year ago.

Today I am cycling the high testosterone with periods of ADT in a BAT style (bipolar androgen therapy). I hope to keep the androgen insensitive cells at bay and then switch over and decimate the androgen-sensitive cells. And also avoid CRPC and NEPC. One thing that concerns me is T recovery. How long, when, and how "bad"? Do I shoot up with Lupron? Get an orchiectomy? That seems drastic but at my age and stage I don't know if it really should be a problem. I control my testosterone exogenously and don't want more children.

1000% agreed. I won't give up my muscles for a longer, less satisfying, life. When I looked like a girl I didn't want to go on. For some people that probably seems crazy. For me, it is a reality.

Speaking of lipids, I took red yeast rice (similar to a statin but possibly superior from a cancer standpoint, possibly inferior). My cholesterol has been above 200 for most of my adult life. I did red yeast rice while on high testosterone. My HDLs went from 44 down to the high 30s but eventually recovered and the last lab was 48. My LDLs went from 161 to 99. Total C 224 down to 163. TG 118 to 87.

4-6 HPF cholestene red yeast rice capsules per day. I'm not convinced that cholesterol leads to cardiac issues. Chol vs. mortality is U-shaped. Study after study shows the same thing. And almost universally the optimum point is around 200 total C. Higher HDLs might be more significant and seem to be associated with lower risk. Even when studies are adjusted for variables (like people dying of cachexia and resulting low C), the data looks about the same. I'm not spending much time looking into cholesterol. If I die, I die. If I don't... well, that's impossible.

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to RSH1

Okay now I get it. BAT-ish. Let’s see what happens! Not enough is known that’s for sure, but the simplistic connection between Pca and testosterone is clearly obsolete. As I said, please keep us posted.

I’ve heard a lot about the red yeast rice and also the disputed connection between LDL and heart disease, but since my LDL really is crazy high (224 at last reading) I’m taking a statin now. The data on statins positively influencing disease control is a bit more compelling than anything around the rice it seems.

I also hear that ratio ( high HDL compensating for LDL) is unsupported. Still of course high HDL is a positive marker, like low triglycerides.

And in the end life is still a terminal disease so they say. Maybe, but today is a good day most days!

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to London441

Yup. Today is a good day. Another day of life. Another day of health. Another day of lifting, family, friends, health unlocked :)

Sometimes I take Lovastatin. Most of the time RYR. I'd take a different one but I'm super sensitive to them for some reason and most of them give me terrible insomnia.

We have more evidence for statins but there is a little for RYR. The first article claims that they are more effective for PCa use. I don't know about that but I don't get insomnia on RYR. And they are quite effective for reducing my cholesterol. More expensive too.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/190...

frontiersin.org/articles/10...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

sci-hub.se/https://www.lieb...

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

healthline.com/nutrition/re...

sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.n...

frontiersin.org/articles/10...

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to London441

My friends get tired of me saying "it's a great day for a great day"

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

Ya I initially had my nutrition off so I lost muscle when initially working out, then my Trainer fixed that and started to see gains slowly but surly with the trade off being a gain of weight, then I cut calories lose it and start the cycle again, just happening so damn slow because of no T. I am religious with my workout and just frustrating. Better than sitting in my recliner and wasting away

London441 profile image
London441 in reply to mrscruffy

Stay strong! It’s the only way. I like to shelve all expectations. It’s swimming upstream each and every day on ADT. I’m off it now but I’m old enough to screw around, miss workouts, lose my intensity etc. Never used to be a problem.

Fortunately none of it lasts long. Gotta forgive myself for that crap on a regular basis. The sooner I do that the sooner I get back to work!

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to mrscruffy

At my age, I am happy with a very slow ramp of muscle gain. In 10 or 20 years I'll be happy to stay in place. At some point, I'll just be trying to slow down the loss. Of course, death can cut that off at any time.

Keep hitting the weights! Way better than the alternative.

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

You are right, I am blessed with friends mostly female that are 20 years younger than me so vanity is playing a nig part in my goals🤣

I see. Well you probably know that on ADT strength gain expectations have to be weighed (no pun intended) against the caloric restriction it takes to compensate for Lupron-induced slowed metabolism.

It’s tough I know. It’s almost as if you have to pick one. I choose strength along with a little bit of a gut myself. The amount I’d have to eat to be as lean as I’d like is absurd at this point.

If you monitor your numbers carefully (glucose, BP, lipid panel, dexa scans etc) and all is well I’d accept the extra weight if I were you.

Of course it’s all about composition. The problem with fat at our age is how easy it is to gain and how tough to lose, as if I have to tell you😀

High intensity training and some MAF/zone 2 may help also. Onward!

when building I consume tons of protein and a caloric surplus then after 6 months cut calories and lose in about 6-8 weeks, usually right before June vacation. It is tricky

Now my pecks hang down to X......

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Tuesday 11/30/2021 4:01 PM EST

Something to watch for is HDL suppression. On Dec 1 I had my lipids tested and my cholesterol was very good. Except for HDLs: they went from 50 before SARMs to 20! I stopped the SARMs and had lipids retested on Dec 7. HDL was up to 30. I'll have it done again next month.

I'm still planning on testing out SARMs but a very low dose. Taking them didn't seem to interfere with the BAT low T phase.

mrscruffy profile image
mrscruffy in reply to RSH1

What were you using and what dose? Were you cycling and how long was your cycle?

RSH1 profile image
RSH1 in reply to mrscruffy

HDL going into this was around 50.

I took some Rad-140 and some ostarine. 10 mg -35 mg for a few days or so. Just messing around. Then I stopped for a couple of weeks.

More controlled:

I took 25 mg/day of ostarine for 5 days starting 11/6/2021.I took 20 mg/day of Rad-140 for 21 days starting 11/11/2021.On 12/1/2021 I had my lipids tested. HDL was 21. As soon as I got the results I stopped Rad-140.

On 12/8/2021 I had my lipids checked again. HDL was 30.

I had good muscle gain even when my T was supposedly zero. And my PSA dropped to zero. The SARMs did not "seem" to interfere on this cycle.

For the next cycle, I'm planning on one injection of 200 mg of deca and one injection of 100 mg of cypionate. Then Androgel for 3 weeks (I've never used it). Hopefully, I can get my T to 1500 and keep it that high. Ostarine 5 mg/day for the first 5-10 days. Rad-140 5 mg/day during the last 3 weeks (could be longer - depends on the cycle length). The planned cycle length is 6 weeks. But actual length depends on PSA measurements.

If my T calculations and tests check out then I would like to use Androgel solely for exogenous T. By the way, Danmeade wants to use Androgel since it has an excellent elimination half-life.

If the SARMs drag down my HDL but don't affect my PSA and are potentially therapeutic during the ADT phase, then I'm going to have to really think hard about the possible negatives vs. the positives. And an added wrinkle is that high testosterone drops your HDL. Mine went from 50ish to 30ish when I was doing high T. But during the 2 years of high T it recovered almost completely. Will my body adapt to SARMs the same way? If I cycle, is that good or bad for PCa, liver, and cardiac health?

I posted a copy of my adaptive BAT book on the private facebook group.

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