Arginine Deprivation Therapy for PC

[2b-lucky]

12 days ago, there was an interesting thread about Nitric-Oxide-Donating NSAIDs, which touched on Arginine. Apparently, some members take arginine supplements. I want to share what I’ve read online about arginine, and why I now avoid it.

But first, full disclosure – I rarely post. I have no scientific or medical background and no expertise of any kind. I know less than .000001 % of what Patrick and Nalakrats know, so I’m not offering “knowledge” here. I’m just putting it out there, hoping to learn and see what others think.

I’ve read about a treatment for prostate cancer called arginine deprivation. And the gist of it is just what it sounds like.

This 2017 report from Johns Hopkins includes a section on arginine, which says:

“ "… studies have shown that highly available supply of arginine is needed to continue the growth of prostate cancer.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

It goes on to say that “a combination of arginine deprivation with arginine deiminase is being studied as combo therapy in cancer patients in Phase II clinical trials.”

This 2012 study says that “recombinant human arginase (rhArg) has been developed for arginine deprivation therapy in cancer, and is currently under clinical investigation. …. rhArg demonstrates a promising novel agent for prostate cancer treatment.”

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

This 2017 study from Harvard et al is not specific to prostate cancer. It says arginine deprivation therapy is effective against a number of cancers, but the mechanism is very complicated and not fully understood:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

This unscientific article from Livestrong underscores how complicated the mechanism is:

"While arginine supplements are used to treat various forms of cancers, suppressing the amino acid is one way to treat prostate cancer.”

livestrong.com/article/5510...

Offering further complexity, one clinical study offered weak and very preliminary evidence that citrulline (which is converted to arginine in the body) may deter the growth of PC cells for the first five years, and promote the growth of PC cells for the following five years.

Last year, I emailed Peter Szlosarek in the UK, one of the Principal Investigators of a 2010 study that affirmed the effectiveness of arginine deprivation therapy against prostate cancer:

onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...

I asked: Do arginine supplements promote the growth of existing prostate cancer? Peter replied that, as far as he knows, there is no data on it, but arginine deprivation therapy works against PC, so if he were in my shoes, he would not take arginine. Not long afterwards, I stopped.

[tom67inMA]

I encourage you to continue posting. Making posts such as this and getting both positive and negative feedback is a great way to learn and build your expertise. It also promotes discussion and helps other members learn as well. Kudos for including links to your source material!

Two thoughts come to mind as I read this: Arginine is not an essential amino acid, which means your body can produce it from other amino acids. Also, the risk of any form of deprivation in an attempt to "starve cancer" is that you'll end up starving your healthy cells and only make a minor dent in the cancer cells. For example, not eating adequate protein in an attempt to reduce arginine intake will only exacerbate muscle loss due to ADT.

Of course, you're primarily talking about not taking arginine supplements which seems entirely reasonable if the goal is to avoid needless excess.

A drug that specifically targets Arginine could be interesting. That would address both the arginine made in the body as well as what you'll get from eating adequate amounts of complete proteins.

[Garbonzeaux]

OK, no need to reply. But just be aware that by writing "double orgasm---which is absolutely nuts," you are pitching right into J-O-H-N's sweet spot.

[Baddawg]

Which brand?

[monte1111 in reply to Baddawg]

Very funny. I'm still laughing. I think everyone seeing "double orgasm" was thinking which brand. If Nalakrats throws that name out there, they'll be out of stock in one day.

[Baddawg in reply to monte1111]

😂

[2b-lucky]

No need to reply. Thank you for once again providing a wealth of useful information.

[pjoshea13]

I don't use arginine for NO - I use a nitroglycerine patch for that.

There has been a "Phase I trial of arginine deprivation therapy with ADI-PEG 20 plus docetaxel in patients with advanced malignant solid tumors" [1]

"ADI-PEG 20 demonstrated reasonable toxicity in combination with docetaxel. Promising clinical activity was noted and expansion cohorts are now accruing for both castrate resistant prostate cancer and non-small cell lung cancer at a recommended phase II dose of 36 mg/m2."

-Patrick

[1] ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

[2b-lucky in reply to pjoshea13]

Patrick

Thank you for your intriguing reply, which prompted me to Google NTG (nitroglycerine.) A number of articles and studies report that nitroglycerine can enhance the effectiveness of various anti-cancer drugs, helping with both delivery and retention. Good to know.

One study reported that the NTG patch you wear also shows promise as a monotherapy:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

“In prostate cancer a prospective, open-label trial of 29 men with an increasing prostate-specific antigen (PSA) level after surgery or radiotherapy investigated the use of transdermal NTG [35]. Patients were enrolled on a 24-month trial to compare PSA doubling time (PSADT) before and after treatment initiation, as well as comparison with a matched control group that received no immediate treatment for their PSA recurrence. The trial used very low doses of NTG, using commercially produced patches cut-down to a custom size, delivering a dose of 0.033 mg/h continuously. PSA levels were monitored monthly for the first 6 months and then every 3 months for the rest of the trial. Of the 29 patients in the trial, 17 completed the full 24-months of treatment, and only 3 of 29 had documented disease progression (10%) by the end of the trial. The results showed that the treatment group had a calculated PSADT of 31.8 months, compared to the pre-treatment rate of 13.3 months or that of the matched control group at 12.8 months.”

On a lighter note, Newsweek reported on a UK study leading to an introduction of a nitroglycerine gel for erectile dysfunction, set to become available in 2020. Newsweek promised “dynamite sex” alongside a photo of a stick of dynamite. Boom!

newsweek.com/dynamite-sex-e...

2b-lucky

[middlejoel in reply to 2b-lucky]

I take L-Arginine Hcl along with Taurine and Nattokinese daily as an alternate to a blood thinner drug ever since it was recommenced here by NAL

[2b-lucky in reply to middlejoel]

I also take Taurine, but the evidence for it does not seem rock solid. I don’t know much about it. I wish I had a good naturopathic doctor. The one I saw doesn’t know nearly as much as Patrick O’Shea and Nalakrats.

I take Serrapeptase, which is similar in some ways to Nattokinase. Both thin your blood, so I’ve read that you should discontinue either one about two weeks before any biopsy or surgery.

I’m not sure how bioavailable arginine supplements are. To get around that, some websites suggest taking citrulline, instead:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

July 19, 2018 – “Unlike l-arginine, l-citrulline is not quantitatively extracted from the gastrointestinal tract (i.e., enterocytes) or liver and its supplementation is therefore more effective at increasing l-arginine levels and NO synthesis.”

Citrulline supplements may give you a steadier base line of NO, whereas arginine supplements may give you bursts of NO, “as needed.” I don’t know, but it might be worth looking into. The article cited above confirms Nalakrats point by listing a broad range of health benefits that comes with increasing your arginine serum blood levels. This one sounds pretty good:

“L-citrulline supplementation is likely to have great clinical benefits, especially in the context of inflamm-aging, the chronic low-grade inflammation associated with aging [77], which is a well-known aggravating factor for cardiometabolic disorders [78], poor vascular health [79], and overall morbidity and mortality.”

[TFBUNDY]

I lifted 4,000mg yesterday but the rock and roll multi orgasm eluded me. Maybe my poor technique. Lol...

[j-o-h-n]

To Nalakrats on sabbatical.

Double Orgasm? Does that require double foreplay?

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 09/09/2019 5:04 PM DST

[j-o-h-n]

BTW 2b, Would you please fill us in regarding your age? location? PSA and Gleason scores? Treatments to date? Treatment center(s)? Doctor's name(s)? All info voluntary but it helps us help you and helps us too. Thanks...

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 09/09/2019 5:09 PM DST

[2b-lucky in reply to j-o-h-n]

Thank you for asking. Here's my profile:

74

Orange County, CA

latest PSA 11.6

Gleason 6

Active Surveillance

No interventions yet

UCLA

Because I don’t have Advanced PC yet, I don’t yet "belong" in this group. (That’s why I had been keeping a low profile, until this week. I feel like I'm "trespassing.") I find the depth and quality of information on here very valuable, so I appreciate being a fly-on-the-wall, and hope to continue learning here.

[j-o-h-n]

Thanks for the info. You're definitely welcome here. Good 2b-lucky with your watchful waiting. A fly on the wall is better than being a fly in the ointment....

Or is it the girl who was afraid of flies until she opened one?....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 09/09/2019 6:21 PM DST

[2b-lucky in reply to j-o-h-n]

What happened to the fly on the toilet seat?

It got pissed off.

[Hidden]

Arginine is one of a group of supplements I take to deal with atrial fibrillation.

[j-o-h-n]

That sure was a bummer since he was the Lord of the.......

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Monday 09/09/2019 9:32 PM DST

[2b-lucky in reply to j-o-h-n]

... Flies.

I assume you came up with that on the fly.

[j-o-h-n in reply to 2b-lucky]

Sorry but it was the best I could do under the circumstances. I'm not feeling well, I think I have the flew....

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Tuesday 09/10/2019 1:07 PM DST

[2b-lucky in reply to j-o-h-n]

Ok, You win!

[j-o-h-n]

No you win.... I give up...

youtube.com/watch?v=xa1j680...(Not working as expected?)

Good Luck, Good Health and Good Humor.

j-o-h-n Tuesday 09/10/2019 5:47 PM DST

[monte1111]

Very good gentlemen. No chicken jokes please.