Hello. Is anyone on here having luck with alternative treatments such as they talk about on "Truth about Cancer" , "Chris Beat Cancer" etc. I have spent a lot of time watching all their information and am wondering if there is any truth to this or is it all just a way to sell their supplements.
Alternative treatments : Hello. Is... - Advanced Prostate...
Alternative treatments
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Dont358
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The evidence to support "alternative" treatments for cancer is mainly anecdotal. There is little science-based evidence to support them. Most people who use them, take them in addition to proven treatments, not as primary treatments. I think they have a role as enhancements for known, proven treatments. Relying on them alone is a risky bet.
From what I've seen, most of those doing this have low risk or no disease at all. Personally, I have an issue when these people start lecturing those of us who have advanced cancer, using their own current state of health as proof that whatever they are doing works.
I watched the "Chris Beat Cancer" series. I think the diet and supplement suggestions can be helpful. When you are taking this on alone there are so many suggestions that it can be overwhelming when you look into alternative therapy even to support traditional cancer treatment options. One I dealt with was do we do the Budwig Protocol or plant based Vegan diet ? We picked the Vegan diet because it made the most sense but the Budwig Protocol sounded almost magical.
For aggressive cancers, I think they help but it is quite a leap of faith to use them without traditional therapy. We use traditional therapy along with Alternative Medicine. Maybe for slow growing cancers, where there is little risk, it is worth trying them to see if they help.
Well, you asked for my opinion. It's a strong one, so hold onto your hat just in case that opinion strikes you as a blast of hot air :>)
I have a very negative opinion of Ty Bollinger and his Truth About Cancer series. I watched a number of the episodes. It was my impression that I was watching pure malarkey, produced by charlatans whose only interest in cancer was how to use it to get money from desperate people. Bollinger interviews different people who call themselves "experts" in the different videos. Not only do their ideas contradict settled science, often their ideas contradict those of other Bollinger promoted "experts", so that if one of them is right the other must be wrong. But Bollinger is either blissfully unable to recognize contradictions, or he is in on the take, or both.
It galls me that people, many of them with no oncological or medical expertise, say that famous doctors and scientists, are full of BS and are hiding cures in order to get your money for treating you with dangerous and ineffective treatments. I suspect that a lot of those "alternative experts" couldn't tell the difference between a healthy cell and a tumor cell under a microscope; couldn't explain the role of testosterone in oncogenesis; have no idea how the biochemistry of Zytiga, Xtandi, Lupron, Taxotere, Keytruda, or any other treatments work; can't explain the structure and function of DNA; - in short, they don't know squat. But they're perfectly willing to tell you that Doctor Harold Varmus, the Nobel Prize winning discoverer of the role of DNA mutation in cancer, was the head of agencies (the U.S. National Cancer Institute, the National Institutes of Health, the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center) dedicated to hiding the truth about cancer in order to get your money.
I would say that if Ty Bollinger or any of his associates offers you a cancer treatment, run for your life.
As for "Chris Beat Cancer", I didn't know anything about him, so I went to his web page. The first thing I noticed after his statement about his colon cancer diagnosis was this sentence:
'The oncologist told me I was “insane” but I decided against chemotherapy after surgery.'
He then goes on to talk as if his cancer was cured by prayer and diet. What happened to the surgery? Does he even consider the possibility that the surgery cured him? A lot of people beat colon cancer with surgery and no chemo. I presume the doctor wanted Chris to have chemo, not because he would definitely die without it, but because it would improve his odds for a cure. A lot of guys who are diagnosed with localized prostate cancer are cured with surgery or radiation - no Lupron, no chemo. I met at least one fool who thought his radiation treatment did nothing, it was his "macrobiotic diet" that cured him. Like Chris, he even put up a website about it, though he did have the grace to take it down when I convinced him that his outcome was completely consistent with successful radiation treatment.
Chris looks like a nice guy with a nice family. I wish them well. But I also wish he would stop confusing people with his own mixed up story.
Alan
P.S. Don't forget to pick up your hat in case it got blown to the floor. You may also need to open some windows to get rid of my hot air.
I looked at Chris' video. He sounded very sincere, not like a huckster. He didn't seem to be selling anything.
Here are my thoughts about what he said.
Stage III colon cancer. I presume that he actually had stage III, and if so, his cancer had escaped the colon and was present in from 1-3 lymph nodes. It is possible that he cured it with his diet. It's possible that it died of its own accord - which sometimes happens, especially with small metastatic tumors when the primary site is removed. It's possible he never had stage III, but something else appeared in an MRI that looked like a metastasis. It's even possible that his cancer is small and dormant but will come back to bite him - something that has happened to many of us many years after surgery or radiation.
But whatever is the case, and even if Chris cured his cancer with diet, it seems very dangerous to me to recommend to others that they forgo chemotherapy for a diet based cure. I don't see any evidence that he's taken seriously the possibility that people could die because they followed his advice.
If we are to take this one anecdotal case seriously, then we should also seriously consider the anecdotal case of the famous entrepreneur, Steve Jobs, who was killed by what the top experts in the country told him was a treatable cancer because he insisted he could beat it with diet alone.
Alan
Hi Alan,
Although I take supplements in addition to standard treatments, I look for some evidence-based reason to do so--such as Patrick O'Shea's posts on this site, which are based on the peer-reviewed, published research literature. I agree with what you're saying, Alan, & you said it very well.
Just fyi, one of the cancer doc's who spoke at the Prostate Cancer Research Institute conference in LA last month said that the research has found Keytruda doesn't help for PCa.
Neal
The Keytruda news is a bummer. I seem to recall a trial where ten PCa patients were given Keytruda and three of them responded well. But maybe the results were premature or the sample size too small.
I also take supplements. My criteria for choosing a supplement is that there be at least _some_ decent evidence for it, and that there be _strong_ evidence that its safe.
Alan
I was disappointed too. I was thinking "Hey, it saved Jimmy Carter; maybe it'll save me!" I remember the research you're talking about. Let's hope the last word hasn't been spoken.
Neal
in reply to Neal-Snyder
Unfortunately, prostate cancer is not very responsive to immunotherapy in general. Here's quote from one researcher:
"We've known that prostate cancer is immunologically cold, or quiet, with very little penetration of the tumors or their surrounding microenvironment by immune cells," said study leader Padmanee Sharma, M.D., Ph.D., professor of Genitourinary Medical Oncology and Immunology.
FYI: Dr McDougall has a long youtube video on the Steve Jobs cancer. His cancer was probably metastatic already.. According to McDougall Steve Jobs only delayed treatment 9 months.(If I am remembering correctly) It is worth watching.
I will confess I ordered Chris's DVDs. Mainly I am looking for a good raw vegan diet for my husband that is not super high in fat... Chris seems to have one that might be helpful.
I don't like it when Any type of medicine uses scare tactics to sway your decision. Nutrition does help.. some of the chemo drugs come from nature.
I find Gerson to be interesting and am a believer in juicing for health.
It seems that the early stage cancers can really be helped by diet .. Dr. Greger on NutritionFacts.org has cited several studies on this.
I wish both sides could be friends! I believe an integrative approach is a wonderful idea.
in reply to softwaremom00
Sorry, Gerson is a dirty word around here. Also, fat in moderation isn't the enemy that it has been portrayed to be.
I watched the McDougall video. I admit to a little kicking and screaming, and irritation with his pronunciation of the word "centimeter", but I have to admit that McDougall made a plausible case. I didn't agree with everything he said, but his main point, that Jobs was already doomed at the time he was diagnosed and surgery wouldn't have saved him was indeed plausible.
I will stop citing the case of Steve Jobs as a person who might not have died if he hadn't tried to treat his cancer with diet alone. If McDougall was right, the diet couldn't have saved him but neither could the surgery, and it is at least conceivable that the diet allowed him to live longer.
I also agree with you that we should at least be very careful about using scare tactics. There are times, like when you see your grandchild running towards a ball that has rolled into the street, that you've got to scream for all your worth. But we need to exercise some restraint when dealing with rational adults.
As for both sides being friends - I'm for it. However I'm not so sure about being friends with the crowd of people that appear in the Truth About Cancer videos who look to me to be dangerous out and out quacks and charlatans.
Thanks for the corrections.
Alan
Alan, I am complete agreement with everything you said here. I will stick with the Science and research. Selling supplements is a huge business, and sometimes people do them without telling the Oncologist treating thier Cancer, Leaving themselves wide open to drug interactions they did not know existed. Brezinski had some people on a TV program telling of thier amazing cures with his protocol, On followup 2 years later they were all dead. theotherburzynskipatientgro...
Dan
Dan wrote: "... On followup 2 years later they were all dead."
Somehow, that's something that doesn't make it into the Burzynski and Ty Bollinger movies. I wonder why?
There was a time that a couple of different reputable clinics attempted to replicate Burzynski's treatment success with his "anti-neoplastons", but without success. If I remember correctly, they asked to see Burzynski's actual patient records, but he refused.
Alan
Here is the story of 40 Patients with bad experiences at the Burziynski Clinic, I have also heard personal stories from guys on previous list, Pay big Dollars, never see Burzynski after first meeting.Ty Bollinger was a big Fan of Burzynski clinic. theotherburzynskipatientgro...
in reply to AlanMeyer
One of my favorite arguments from the conspiracy theory bunch is how there is this big conspiracy to hide the cures of cancer so that they can milk us all for as much money as they can. And that's why you start spending all your money on the "real" cures for cancer instead!
in reply to AlanMeyer
I'm with you AlanMeyer. A lot of these so called alternatives remind me of religions. People set themselves as gurus and start preaching their own gospel about how their particular religion will save you but all the others are evil. Facts are not needed, only faith. You only need to believe. We're not like the other people that are just trying to take your money, but please do put something into the collection basket.
I agree that many of the 'Alternatives' will leave you poorer and sicker (or dead), but I have personally spoken to two people with advanced cancers (one Melanoma stage 3 and one Breast cancer Stage 4) who are now disease free thanks to strictly following The Gerson Therapy for 3 years. I'm not sure anyone with advanced prostate cancer has been successful on Gerson, but I'd like to find out.
Paul,
We have to be very careful about evaluating anecdotal reports and/or basing judgments on them. For example, people sometimes say that had this or that cancer, with this or that stage, but they don't really know what cancer is or what staging is. They may have been diagnosed by a doctor who, himself, was not a cancer specialist and didn't know what he was doing. But I think those are unusual cases and I'm not arguing for them, I just want to be clear that they happen. However there are some very common cases like the following:
1. Somebody is diagnosed and treated for cancer. They begin a macrobiotic diet, or a vegan diet, or a fruitarian diet, or a starch diet, or a paleolithic diet, or whatever fad diet you can name. There is no recurrence of their symptoms and they are convinced that their diet cured them. They may or may not have understood the treatment that they received which, in fact was the cure. The diet may have been completely irrelevant to what happened to them. I met a clear case of that.
2. Somebody is diagnosed with cancer. Sometime later, having no symptoms, they pronounce themselves cancer free. In some cases their testing reveals no cancer. In other cases they had no additional testing. They have been eating according to some particular diet. Later, after they said and believed that they were cured, the cancer comes back. This happens very frequently with prostate cancer. There are many men in this group who went years after surgery or radiation with no evidence of cancer. Then their PSA began to rise. Many of those men, if they weren't regularly tested for PSA, would go more years with no symptomatic evidence of cancer recurrence.
3. Somebody is diagnosed with cancer. They get no treatment. Sometime later they are tested again but there is no sign of the cancer. What happened? Was it diet? Was it exercise? Was it the effect of a virus? Was it a strong immune response? Was it a change in their emotional outlook? Was it a misdiagnosis the first time? What if someone else has the same story, but ate an entirely different diet? What can we conclude?
I think that it's too easy to make mistakes in these cases. Even population based studies involving hundreds or thousands of cases sometimes turn out to have drawn false conclusions.
Medicine is not (yet) an exact science. Oftentimes we have to make decisions based on statistical evidence where all we can safely conclude is that there is an XX% chance of some conclusion being right - and even the XX is questionable. However, inexact as it may be, I think we have a better chance of getting things right if we follow the scientific method, look at trial results, look at the statistics, evaluate the strength of the evidence, and base our judgments on all of that, than we do on the basis of anecdotes.
As for the Gerson therapy, it incorporates some elements that are pretty well known to be unhealthy, like taking 3-4 enemas every day. It is based on a theory of cancer that was created in the era before we knew about DNA and mutation - which is now known to be central to cancer biology. It imagines that all cancers have the same cause and the same cure, something that appears to be completely false in the light of modern science.
As it turns out, there is evidence that organically grown vegetables do produce anti-cancer chemicals (the inventor of Zytiga has produced useful evidence of that.) Gerson is not alone in advocating this idea. But there is no clear, scientifically reproducible evidence that I am aware of, that Gerson's diet will prevent or cure cancer.
My own feeling about all the diet "cures" for cancer is that the authors of those diets need to stop selling books for a while and run some properly designed clinical trials. Then they'll either be able to justify their claims with scientifically acceptable evidence, or they'll need to stop making the claims.
Alan
in reply to AlanMeyer
I don't think these people will ever run properly designed clinical trials. They know what would happen. Instead they prefer to "cherry pick" the small percentage of people benefited (or so we are told). As far as the people who have been "cured", we have no idea who these people are, what their diagnosis was, what other treatments they did, etc. It's about as unscientific as it gets.
Why is it that you only hear about the so-called "success stories"?
Hi Alan, While I agree with most of what you say, I am open-minded to the possibility that Gerson has cured some. Perhaps it won't cure the majority, but even curing 1 shows there is something in it. You will never see a Phase III double-blinded randomised trial for Gerson Therapy (or anything else alternative) because who will stump up the cash to fund it? Big Pharma won't, the government won't. I remain open to all possibilities, but I put the bulk of my faith in science and evidence based medicine.
I understand your position on evidence based medicine and fully agree with it.
One of the problems with alternative medicine is that there are so many alternatives. In addition to Gerson's diet, there are claims for vegan diets, macrobiotic diets, fruitarian diets, Budwig's diet, a diet of almonds, and others. They contradict each other. They can't all be right, yet each has numerous people who claim that it cures their cancer. So what do we do?
And if it's true that Gerson therapy cured 1 person out of some number (10? 100? 1,000?) who tried it but another diet cured 2 people out of the same number, then wouldn't a patient be cutting his chances for a cure in half by trying Gerson's diet?
One problem with anecdotes is that there are so many of them and with no way to choose between them.
So I figure that the safest thing to do is to ignore all of them unless and until all scientific choices are exhausted. Then, with nothing to lose, I might try one of the anecdotal "alternatives". However, I think I'd probably prefer to spend my remaining time doing things that were more meaningful to me than chasing anecdotes, reading diet books, and grinding up vegetables, or whatever it is I'm supposed to do.
It's an interesting issue though.
Alan
in reply to AlanMeyer
Very well said, Thank you.
Dont358, Please, please read all of Alan Meyers' answers to your question. There is no secret cure for cancer. I know the treatments for advanced prostate cancer have side effects--some very unpleasant, indeed--they remain the most studied and they are reliable, based on data collected. You can't drink a cup of "magic" tea for this disease. My mother died of breast cancer at the age of 27 (I am 66 now). Her treatments were brutal: exposure to radiation that blackened her skin following surgery to remove both breasts and surrounding tissue. She also was drained physicall (from pain) and emotionally; she was nauseous constantly. I could add more. My point: I feel damned lucky to be treated in this day and age. Pardon me if I call nutritional cures bull---t/1
in reply to ronton2
It's kind of funny how so many of the people who preach this stuff are already healthy so they think they proven whatever they are doing works. Then they feel it somehow gives them the right to get on their soap box and preach to all the "unbelievers". I've met some of these people that carry around this air of superiority. "My particular regimen of blah, blah blah. Yes, it combines all the specific things that I've chosen because they sound good to me. And now they have become the truth." I talked to one recently and could almost feel the condescending attitude when told him that I had just done chemotherapy.
I didn't want to pop his bubble and tell him how lucky he is to be healthy. Give him just 5 minutes of bone pain from cancer and then see what happens. I'd be willing to bet he drops his bullshit like a hot potato.
Since I subscribed to the Chris Cures Cancer Square One Protocol - I thought I would give a short summary:
Nutritional Plant Based Cancer Program that includes 10 Video Modules, pdf transcripts, Facebook Group, and Q&A sessions throughout the year. My impression is the theory is that cancer is a systemic disease.. so the protocol is not specific to a type of cancer.. it is meant to include all cancers.
Module Topics Include:
Why You Have Cancer
Cancer Diet
How to Detox Your Body
Eliminate Stress
Spiritual Healing
Exercise and Rest Activate Healing
Cancer Herbs, Teas and Supplements
Testing and Monitoring Your Progress
Some of the modules include PDFs and recipe's.. there are a few additional items like lists of Drs and Clinics to help with a nutritional protocol.
I enjoy listening to his Videos. I appreciate that he tries to update his information based on what is available now and does not just talk about what was available when he was healed. He seems sincere and that he genuinely wants to help people. The Facebook group seems to have a mixture of people, some have used only natural therapy and some have used conventional and natural.
This summary is not meant to be an endorsement, It is just an FYI for anyone interested. If you want to include a nutritional protocol into your plan you might enjoy listening to this program.
I have not gone through all of the video's but watched at least half of them. I am happy to answer questions via msg.
Prayers and Blessings to Everyone!
softwaremom,
I've got some questions:
1. Do you have to pay money for the videos or any other part of the program?
2. Are there any citations to scientific evidence (e.g., research articles, clinical trials, standards of care, etc.) for any of the teachings in the program?
I think we now know that not all cancer is systemic. Some cancers are purely local and stay local. Some are benign, but I think even some local cancers, like some brain cancers that stay only in the brain, can kill you. We also know that cancers are not all the same. There are potentially hundreds of different genes involved in promoting or suppressing cell division, metastasis, DNA repair, and other processes that can be involved in cancer. Two men with prostate cancer might have completely different DNA mutations. What they have in common is that, in both men, the cells that became malignant were prostate cells. But they respond to different drugs. For example, some men get great benefit from hormone therapy but nothing but harm from chemotherapy. With other men it's the opposite.
This is all highly technical stuff. One of the things that bothers me about the alternative medicine practitioners is that they don't study this stuff. They don't study biochemistry, molecular biology, or medicine. In most cases they've never looked at a cancer cell through a microscope. They've never taken a course in a medical school, much less gone through the long and difficult process of becoming a doctor. And yet they are ready to pronounce the "truth about cancer."
I take it from your pseudonym that you are a professional computer programmer (as am I). What would you think about someone offering to fix bugs in your programs who has no knowledge or experience in software, or someone offering to fix your computer with no knowledge or experience of electronics? Isn't that what Chris is doing?
I don't see any problem with listening to someone talk about personal experience and things that helped them, but does that make a person qualified to say "Why you have cancer", or "How to detox your body"?
I've read some serious books about all this (Lehninger's Biochemistry, Alberts' Molecular Biology of the Cell, and some others) that are standard textbooks in the field and I have to say I'm curious about Chris' view on "Why you have cancer." I can tell you that if it doesn't discuss DNA mutation which is at the foundation of cancer biology, then he's contradicting some of the most intelligent and experienced scientists in the world and he's going to have a hard time convincing me.
Has Chris put a video on "Why you have cancer" on Youtube that I can watch?
Thanks.
Alan
Short reply for now, at hospital with husband. Chris does have a video on why you have cancer. I am not sure it is free. He has had all of the videos available for free of 10 days in Sept. He does say he is not a doctor and to run these protocols by your doctor.
I look at this stuff as supplementary and complementary to traditional medicine. I know most us doctors are not trained in nutrition.
I was not necessarily endorsing his program... I do not think that adding the diet protocol would harm anyone...I like o get recommendations for supplement sources because it can be hard to know which are good and which are fake.
I will write more later.
Blessings,
Alan,
I would like to offer you my digital buddy pass to Square One. When you buy the plan you get 1 free pass to give to someone that gives them a membership.
This way you can make your own decision.
The Square One Program is a nice setup for someone who wants everything setup for them.
My biggest disagreement with it is the negativity towards chemo and traditional medicine. It seems like most people pick the parts of the program that they think they can handle.(At least from the facebook group) I think this is fine.
I will private msg you the code for the buddy pass.
I agree with most of what you say in your text. I like and appreciate credentials and education. I just wish Doctors were better trained in nutrition and supplements to make suggestions. This is why we also go to a Doctor who is fellowship trained in nutritional medicine, he helps with this stuff. I am not sure he is as good as some of folks here though, especially when it comes to prostate cancer.
Blessings and Prayers. I hope you are feeling well today!
Softwaremom
I am an advocate of a healthy lifestyle in general, I take supplements that are recommended for metatastic cancer and I listen to the oncologist. I follow an organic diet and try to avoid meats which are non organic. I believe that when we are all diagnosed we look at all options but I was never going to refuse standard proven treatment but I am open to other holistic treatments as an add on. I religiously drink essiac tea (I like it) and I have found immunecol platinum which gives me energy on my hormone treatment, it may not work for everyone but it makes a huge difference to me. I take apricot kernels religiously and pineapple enzymes and I also drink water with lemon and monitor my ph levels. However I'm also on ZYtiga and Zoladex and have passed all my other holistic treatments to my oncologist who says to carry on taking them. I guess you never know if they are helping but as long as my PSA levels stay low I will carry on with all my treatments both standard and holistic. Good luck with everything.
Thanks so much to everyone who has weighed in on this topic. I have failed to be cured by RP about a year and a half ago and am currently on Lupron with a PSA that has stayed steady at .01 for more than a year. I know this will not last forever and am certainly trying all these "alternatives" in hopes that some combination of diet and supplements would somehow kill the remaining cancer cells that must be in short number as evidenced by a .01 PSA. I really appreciate everyone's input on here. Lots of great men fighting the good fight.
Hard to say what motivation lies behind "The Truth About Cancer". Maybe it is true that those people are trying to make others aware of the downside to the pharma industry and maybe they do want to help people to look at alternative treatments as well. Maybe they do want to make money from selling the series and the products mentioned in it.
At the beginning of this year, I was very interested in the series.
But now, many months further down the line, all I can say is that the supplements we were using at the time to get my husband's cancer under control did not work and that the Chemotherapy he is using now is working.
So I would never again say: Let's go for alternatives and only alternatives. It is not a wise thing to do. Maybe trying some while still going with conventional treatments, yes, maybe. But never alone. That is of course only my opinion.
Mel.
After my brother passed from lung cancer I have accumulated a tremendous amount of knowledge and now I wish to share the information to whoever would like to read and investigate it themselves, free of charge. I have been vilified and called a snake oil salesman because I’m not a big fan of conventional medicine. I would like to assist those who choose or need help along this journey to try and eliminate these diseases from their body and I believe I would be a valuable and effective part at doing just that. Please read this and contact me for more information or updates.
Absolutely no alternative cancer treatment will work without a proper “cancer diet” or “healthy diet.” There are many vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, etc. that actually contain nutrients that kill cancer cells, stop the spread of cancer, and do other things that treat cancer. Remember that cooked foods have most of the nutrients cooked out of them and raw foods don’t.
On the other hand, there are other foods that FEED the cancer cells or FEED the microbes inside the cancer cells, such as processed sugar, processed grains, processed foods, meat and meat products including chicken and fish, dairy products, etc. It is critical, for any cancer diet that the patient understands perfectly that what you don't eat is just as important as what you do eat along with maintaining a healthy weight by being active. This is a lifestyle decisions you will have to make.
The immune system contains many different types of “cells,” but only a handful of these white blood cells actually kill cancer cells. It should be the intent of a person with cancer to focus on treatments and a diet that quickly increase the count of the cancer-killing white blood cells.
The second thing to note is that building the immune system is sometimes not the highest priority of those with cancer. People with only a few months to live should definitely take immune system building products and focus more on the nutrients, foods and products that kill cancer-cells directly, such as the Grape Cure, Noni Juice, Essiac Tea, etc. or revert the cancer cells into normal cells. With rare exceptions, it is highly advisable to use natural substances to deal with the immune system to treat cancer, no matter what stage the cancer patient is in.
Most of this information is off the Cancertutor.com website for prostate, breast and just about every other cancer and dangerous disease.
Google information about these protocols and you might be surprised. Be sure to find someone with experience that can guide you through the different protocols and how to combine them. Best of luck.--- Delta-9 THC, Fucoidan, Laetrile, Helean 951, Laurose extract, Lecithin, L-glutamine, lycopene, Mangosteen, DHEA, Protocel, Supplement IP6, electromedicine, Ellagic acid, Amazon Tonic III, Essiac Tea Treatment, Lapacho or Taheebo Tea and many more.
Maybe I missed it, but I am surprised Ive seen no reference to Care Oncology Clinic or the often repeated testimonials from members on this list. Not to mention , recent research that points to the clinical effectiveness of some herb combinations.
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