lost in translation...: Increased fT... - Thyroid UK

Thyroid UK

141,244 members166,489 posts

lost in translation...

tattybogle profile image
17 Replies

Increased fT4 concentrations in patients using levothyroxine without complete suppression of TSH

Authors: Heleen I Jansen et al . 2023 ec.bioscientifica.com/view/...

I found this study ....it's not from endocrinologists , it was done by Lab researchers in the Netherlands ,

They were looking for reasons for discordant fT4 / TSH test results (over range fT4 without supressed TSH). they had originally wondered if their new fT4 assay (blood test machine) was the problem, but it wasn't.

I think we can all agree they come to a thoughtful and intelligent conclusion, based on up to date knowledge ........ and in their conclusion they make several good suggestions to improve testing for thyroid patients.

"....There may be various causes contributing to this phenomenon in L-T4 users. Timing of blood withdrawal following L-T4 intake can lead to high fT4 concentrations without (complete) TSH suppression. Hypothyroid patients are mainly treated with L-T4 and the effect of treatment is monitored by measuring serum TSH, sometimes accompanied by fT4. Hypothyroid patients are advised to take a single daily dose of L-T4 orally in a fasting state. L-T4 administration in the morning or at bedtime is considered equally effective as long as L-T4 is taken on an empty stomach to ensure optimal uptake (14, 15). In contrast to fT4, no direct alterations of TSH and T3 have been reported directly after L-T4 ingestion (4, 5, 6, 7, 8). An fT4 course as Fig. 2 presents was found in patients taking L-T4 in the morning before breakfast, and one would also expect an increase in fT4 levels during the night when L-T4 is taken at bedtime (16). However, literature on extensive follow-up of fT4 and TSH levels following L-T4 intake in the morning compared to bedtime is lacking. Ain et al. (7) as well as Hoermann et al. (17) specifically emphasized that fT4 concentrations in L-T4 users were influenced by the time of day, meaning the time interval between L-T4 intake and blood sampling should be considered in the interpretation of fT4 values. In line with this advice, the European Thyroid Association guideline on treating central hypothyroidism advises blood withdrawal for monitoring treatment to be performed before L-T4 intake or at least 4 h after L-T4 intake (18), but other international guidelines do not yet (19) To the best of our knowledge, only Conte et al. (20) investigated if timing of blood sampling affected the evaluation of (morning) L-T4 treatment in patients with differentiated thyroid carcinoma and showed an increase in fT4 concentration in the afternoon compared to the morning without TSH deviation in this group. The observed increase (2.8 pmol/L) might not always be determined clinically relevant because treatment decisions are mainly based on changes in TSH. However, such fluctuations in fT4 concentrations may be relevant for evaluating treatment effects if TSH cannot be used as a marker to monitor thyroidal status (e.g. in central hypothyroidism).

Furthermore, a higher fT4/fT3 ratio was seen in patients using L-T4 compared to healthy controls (12, 21, 22). Hypothyroid patients receive L-T4 supplementation which replaces T4 only and thus these patients partially lack the active thyroid hormone triiodothyronine (T3) derived from the thyroid gland. This suggests a need for increased conversion of T4 into T3 in the peripheral tissues to reach adequate tissue T3 concentrations (21), resulting in the need for a higher L-T4 dosage to obtain a normal, or even somewhat lower, concentration of T3 (22, 23). Moreover, TSH is more sensitive to changes in T3 than in T4, clarifying the lack of negative pituitary feedback to increased fT4 concentrations leading to not (completely) suppressed TSH. This phenomenon may be more prominent in patient groups that are characterized by an even greater deficit of endogenous T3 production (e.g. athyroid patients). Even though in athyroid patients some T3 is still produced by deiodinases in several tissues, previous literature showed an outspoken dissociation between fT4 and fT3 concentrations in this group where even a higher L-T4 dosage did not lead to adequate fT3 concentrations (24). Thus, the adapted peripheral conversion of T4 into T3 in L-T4 users leads to an increased fT4 concentration combined with a not (completely) suppressed TSH, which is reflected in a higher fT4/fT3 ratio.

In conclusion, the observed fT4 concentrations above the ULN together with not (completely) suppressed TSH were not caused by incorrect reference intervals or analytical problems but mainly related to L-T4 use. Most likely, a combination of timing of blood withdrawal and the timing of L-T4 intake causes this phenomenon. The retrospective design of our study did not allow us to investigate this further in our cohorts. Physicians and laboratory specialists should be aware of the importance of timing of blood withdrawal and the timing of L-T4 intake to avoid questioning the assay’s performance or, worse, unnecessarily adapting L-T4 dose in patients. The clinical implications of discrepant TSH and fT4 concentrations may differ among specific L-T4 treated groups, as treatment and follow-up approaches are different. One could argue that TSH measurements suffice during treatment follow-up, but measuring TSH alone in L-T4 users has its limitations as well (25). These findings may argue for the application of an integrative approach by adding the measurement of fT3 or the fT4/fT3 ratio as a more reliable reflection of thyroid hormone status in L-T4 users considering the adapted peripheral conversion of T4 into T3 in L-T4 users. Furthermore, specific reference intervals or altered target values of fT4 for L-T4 users could be determined and used, ideally specified for different specific L-T4 treated groups (e.g. Hashimoto’s hypothyroidism, central hypothyroidism, athyroid patients). Last and potentially easiest, it can be advised to draw blood at fixed time points to ensure proper result comparisons over time."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then ..... some American endo's read it ...and write an article on it.

.... below is their summary , it's written by the American Thyroid Association ('for the public' ), and they somehow manage to translate the study's conclusion into this :

thyroid.org/patient-thyroid... (Summaries for the Public from recent articles in Clinical Thyroidology)

"WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF THIS STUDY?

These data show that 2-4% of individuals will have an increased FT4 and normal TSH and that ~80% of these results will be obtained in patients currently taking levothyroxine. Measuring just TSH for the monitoring of thyroid levels in patients taking levothyroxine may be more useful of the TSH level returns in the normal range. However, if the TSH returns abnormal (either high or low), a FT4 level can be helpful".

..... which seems to be saying: 'if high fT4 is worrying you (when TSH is in range) .... stop testing it... problem solved'. .............. (well that's my translation ...lol)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So that's all right then ... (not)

eg .

I recently got some unexpected results:

TSH 2.65

fT4 15.7 [7.9-14] 128% testing

fT3 4 [3.1-6.8] 24%

which was a bit of a surprise, given that i have an 18 yr history of TSH between 0.05 and 0.2, with fT3 between 40 -60% ....

(taking consistent dose /test protocol and last dose timing etc are all consistent will my previous tests, so before anyone asks ~ time of last dose / non-compliance is not an explanation for this particular set of discordant results ... so presumably it is because something has lowered my conversion of T4 to T3)

and so knowing what i know about higher fT4 levels and cancer cell proliferation risks / 'too high' fT4 levels reducing deiodinase conversion to T3. etc etc ....... i thought i should perhaps take some action, or at least take some notice .... but no ! it seems there is a much easier solution..... i can just ignore the high fT4 problem by testing TSH on it's own in future ... problem solved. Thanks ATA

(not)

Written by
tattybogle profile image
tattybogle
To view profiles and participate in discussions please or .
Read more about...
17 Replies
1tuppence profile image
1tuppence

Do you feel ATA actually read this paper? How on earth did they miss

" Physicians and laboratory specialists should be aware of the importance of timing of blood withdrawal and the timing of L-T4 intake to avoid questioning the assay’s performance or, worse, unnecessarily adapting L-T4 dose in patients."

"but measuring TSH alone in L-T4 users has its limitations as well (25). These findings may argue for the application of an integrative approach by adding the measurement of fT3 or the fT4/fT3 ratio as a more reliable reflection of thyroid hormone status in L-T4 users considering the adapted peripheral conversion of T4 into T3 in L-T4 users. Furthermore, specific reference intervals or altered target values of fT4 for L-T4 users".

????????????????????

tattybogle profile image
tattybogle in reply to1tuppence

it's astonishing isn't it ....

some endocrinologists bring a whole new level of meaning to the word 'disinterested '.

Endocrinologists ~ please , if you are not remotely interested in thyroid issues, then by all means tell us to go elsewhere for treatment ... and we gladly will.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

adding a list of related stuff to read later:

academic.oup.com/jcem/artic... Approach to the Patient With Raised Thyroid Hormones and Nonsuppressed TSH

Carla Moran, Nadia Schoenmakers, David Halsall, Susan Oddy, Greta Lyons, Sjoerd van den Berg, Mark Gurnell, Krishna Chatterjee

The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism April 2024,

"True Biochemical Hyperthyroidism With Nonsuppressed TSH

Genuinely Raised (Free) T4 Thyroxine therapy, including with poor compliance

..... Separate to this, it is also recognized that a subset of hypothyroid patients, compliant with thyroxine therapy in physiological dosage, can exhibit raised circulating FT4 but normal FT3 and TSH concentrations (44, 45). This phenomenon has been attributed to diminished activity of type 2 deiodinase, reducing the generation of T3 (from its T4 precursor) that is available to inhibit pituitary TSH secretion (45)."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

( from Internet search using " High fT4 and non supressed TSH on Levothyroxine " )

HowNowWhatNow profile image
HowNowWhatNow

hi Tattybogle - can you please explain more what the cancer proliferation risk is from / when and how it arises? You mention is just as an aside and I don’t know what you are referring to. Thank you for posting and summarising!

tattybogle profile image
tattybogle in reply toHowNowWhatNow

Hi , various bits of research on T4/ proliferation ~ somewhere in this lot :

See my reply to this post 3 yrs ago : healthunlocked.com/thyroidu... over-range-t4?responses=146543870

and these ones from Jimh111 :

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu... levothyroxine-monotherapy-and-cancer

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu... thyroid-hormones-and-cancer-video

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu... levothyroxine-monotherapy-cardiac-risk-and-mortality

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu... t4-and-cancer

HowNowWhatNow profile image
HowNowWhatNow in reply totattybogle

Thank you.

I don’t know how I missed this whole discussion.

Has anyone in one of the thyroid charities written this up into a public facing note?

There is so much interest in the role HRT plays in cancer, and yet I had never heard anything about the thyroid treatment risk.

I would love to see the outcomes of these academic papers synthesised, made accessible to all in an easy reading former and made known to policy makers in medicine and polities.

tattybogle profile image
tattybogle in reply toHowNowWhatNow

Not as far as i know.

bikebabe profile image
bikebabe in reply totattybogle

Well I must be a classic example of that. I have both cardiac disease and stage 4 cancer after a life since age 4 of t4 monotherapy at high doses 300mcg for 15 yrs and then lower. I didn’t get t3 added til 59 yrs old when I insisted on a referral after reading these pages because I had classic hypo symptoms even with high ft4/low tsh. Interestingly when I looked back, in my 50s my thyroid t4/tsh levels were hugely affected (for the better) when I started cycling 100 miles a week from being a jelly like sloth. The levels reverted back when I stopped cycling a few years later.

FallingInReverse profile image
FallingInReverse

tattybogle is it correct that (one of) the main points of this paper is that if FT4 is high and TSH not suppressed, then it could be from taking exogenous Levo/T4 too close to testing?

Or us there more to it?

tattybogle profile image
tattybogle in reply toFallingInReverse

They were noticing more cases of high T4 /unsuppresed TSH results .. and originally thought the problem was their labs new fT4 assay , but seem to have reassured themselves it was not causing significantly higher looking fT4 results..... so they looked elsewhere for reasons .

They found that about 80% of these discordant results were from patients taking levo.

yes, it's saying that when you get lab results showing high T4 with unsuppressed/or normal TSH in patients on levo , then 'taking last dose close to the test' is a likely explanation (which we already know, but many GP's don't).

it is also pointing out that the loss of some /or all T3 production and conversion from a damaged / absent thyroid gland means more T4 is needed to get similar /or less T3 from peripheral conversion elsewhere in the body ..... leading to the higher T4:T3 ratio's found in many levo patients. (more T4:less T3)

and..... that T4 has less of a suppressive effect on TSH than T3 does. ( ie. the reason the high fT4 has not supressed the TSH, is because the fT3 is lower)

...... all of which could be contributing .

Note, there are limitations to this study:

~they didn't have information on time of last dose for their data , (it was looked at retrospectively, and phlebotomists don't record 'time of last dose' on blood samples).

~ " We did assess the use of amiodarone which was present in 4.7 and 8.2% of the cohorts with discordant fT4 and TSH results. We did, however, not investigate the use of other drugs, such as antithyroid drugs, beta-blockers, or glucocorticoids which could have influenced fT4 results as well and should ideally be looked at in future (prospective) studies"

So without this information, they obviously don't know how many of their high T4/ unsuppressed TSH results were due to taking last dose too close to testing ..or how many are due to poor conversion .... or how many were due to something else .... or how many were on 'block and replace' ( carbimazole plus levo) etc etc.

It's nothing we don't already know .... but still ....it's all useful ammo for use on GP's who insist time of last dose doesn't matter and refuse to take it into consideration etc .

FallingInReverse profile image
FallingInReverse

I got hung up and confused on this part…

“yes, it's saying that when you get lab results showing high T4 with unsuppressed/or normal TSH in patients on levo , then 'taking last dose close to the test' is a likely explanation (which we already know, but many GP's don't)”

I can’t believe that doctors don’t already know that.

Thanks for your clear and contextual analysis of this paper. I now understand why it’s helpful to have a paper saying that FT4 will test higher the closer you are to your last exogenous T4 dose. The fact that that has to be said at all leaves me speechless.

tattybogle profile image
tattybogle in reply toFallingInReverse

it is shocking isn't it ....but to know this stuff your average Enid or GP would first have to be interested enough in thyroidology to do "reading"....... like wot we do .

arTistapple profile image
arTistapple

I thought I really was reading this stuff wrongly! They completely contradict themselves it appears to me.

FallingInReverse profile image
FallingInReverse in reply toarTistapple

Me too, took some real mental gymnastics to try and follow along.

tattybogle profile image
tattybogle in reply toFallingInReverse

I've reworded my intro to this post , so hopefully it's now a bit easier to follow

FallingInReverse profile image
FallingInReverse in reply totattybogle

Oh my gosh!!!!!!

Just to clarify… it was the ARTICLE that was confusing.

You deserve a Nobel prize first for you ability to understand the paper, and second for your incredible ability to clearly explain it!

I hope you don’t think for one second that I was referring to you when I wrote that snarky comment!!!! Oh dear… please tell me you’ve read this, that you know I wasn’t referring to you! (You didn’t think that I was referring to you did you? Sometimes communicating through these posts are hard to read for tone…. So I’m just making sure…)

tattybogle profile image
tattybogle in reply toFallingInReverse

don't worry ...i didn't think you meant me ,, i just decided my original wording was adding to the potential for confusion, that's all :)

FallingInReverse profile image
FallingInReverse in reply totattybogle

Oh thank you for replying : ) after I wrote that I kinda realized you probably knew that… but wasn’t completely sure … 👍 🤣

Not what you're looking for?

You may also like...

TSH is just the 'opinion' of your Pituitary about your dose ~ but your Pituitary's 'opinion' is a bit warped once you take Thyroid Hormone.

These first two papers can be used to prove that on T4 monotherapy , a dose that is enough to...
tattybogle profile image

Proportion of serum thyroid hormone concentrations within the reference ranges in athyreotic patients on levothyroxine monotherapy

A Japanese paper which suggests measuring FT3 might be more useful than FT4. I've only read the...
helvella profile image
Administrator

Central hypothyroidism and T4-T3 conversion

Here is a summary of a paper describing effects of pituitary failure on thyroid parameters: L-T4...
diogenes profile image
Remembering

Testosterone Therapy & Thyroid Function Issues

Would appreciate some advice on my latest bloods. For the past 6 months or so I’ve been on...
Flatdanny profile image

Important New Study: Low CSF/serum fT4 Ratio Associated with Decreased Quality of Life

Low CSF/serum ratio of free T4 is associated with decreased quality of life in mild...
jimh111 profile image

Moderation team

See all
Jaydee1507 profile image
Jaydee1507Administrator
PurpleNails profile image
PurpleNailsAdministrator
SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator

Content on HealthUnlocked does not replace the relationship between you and doctors or other healthcare professionals nor the advice you receive from them.

Never delay seeking advice or dialling emergency services because of something that you have read on HealthUnlocked.