Can Armour cause depression?

[123Dipsy]

Hi and looking for advice. I have been taking Armour for just over two weeks having previously been on 100 mg of levothyroxine daily. I was so excited to be prescribed Armour as my T3 levels always fell below range and I had fatigue and joint pain when on levo. Already I think the joint pain is improving with Armour but I feel really tearful and don’t want to get up each day. Please does anyone know if this is just an adjustment thing? Thanks

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK]

How much Armour Thyroid are you taking?

There are many very questionable approaches to converting doses from levothyroxine to desiccated thyroid.

And, can you confirm it is AbbVie Armour Thyroid you are taking? (Lots of people refer to all desiccated thyroid "Armour".)

[123Dipsy in reply to helvella]

on the bottle it says 60 mg or 1 grain of Armour Thyroid and the brand name is Allergan. Thanks

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to 123Dipsy]

Allergan were acquired by AbbVie but older packaging might still be in the supply chain.

I'll leave others with experience to reply now they can see what you have gone from, and to.

[radd]

123Dipsy,

Welcome to our forum,

After I added T3 to my Levothyroxine I felt physically stronger but mentally broken and cried every day for a year (read my profile). Eventually HRT was added and all hormones magically started working holistically and mental health grow robust.

I now medicate Armour but have to substitute a small amount for Levo as found Armour T3 potent. It really is a balance of getting the correct individualised ratio of T4:T3 and adequate adrenal and sex hormones. I have been stable for some years now and vow never to give up my HRT.

I would suggest you initially conduct a full thyroid panel (TSH, FT4 & FT3) and if these are good levels, then investigate cortisol, oestrogen, progesterone and testosterone. Many of us have to pay for private testing as NHS care is so limited.

How much Armour are you taking?

[123Dipsy in reply to radd]

Thanks so much for your help. I am taking one gram at the moment a day. Was taken off HRT 6 months ago due to fibroids, but private GP suggests starting bioidentical HRT. I am nervous of taking anything, but your post is making me rethink.

[radd in reply to 123Dipsy]

123Dipsy,

The cause of fibroids are unknown but thought to be linked to sex hormones, particularly oestrogen. But all hormones have to work in synergy with others and it may be that yours weren’t working correctly because the Levothyroxine mono-therapy was inadequate. Or it may be that oestrogen levels were too high in relation to progesterone if you are peri-menopausal or just didn't detox oestrogen well.

I think you mean 1 grain of Armour. This contains the equivalent of 65mcg T4 but manufacturers claim it be equivalent to 100mcg T4. Many forum members including myself would say 1 grain equates to around 80mcg T4, and therefore you may be a little under-dosed but as you've only been medicating two weeks it is too early to test.

[123Dipsy in reply to radd]

Sorry- yes 1 grain.still learning the terminology.

[levelslass in reply to 123Dipsy]

You are doing this under medical supervision aren't you? I was on 75mcg T4 and 25mcg t3. My doc converted that to 1.5 grain twice daily ie 3 grains according to my blood tests and I feel as normal as I did pre thyroid.

[123Dipsy in reply to levelslass]

Yes I am using a private clinic that was recommended on the list. Perhaps my dosage will be altered at the next blood test?

[Lilyrae215 in reply to 123Dipsy]

Can I ask, what is the name of the private clinic? I have been having issues and just suffering though symptoms for years.

[123Dipsy in reply to Lilyrae215]

The Oakley Partnership, Sutton Coldfield

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to radd]

Armour Thyroid uses 60 milligrams as the basis for their product - not 65.

Not super-important but it can be confusing to see it sometimes as 60 (e.g. on the pot it comes in) and sometimes as 65 (e.g. as in some posts/replies) even though not a huge difference.

Armour® Thyroid

(thyroid tablets, USP

rxabbvie.com/pdf/armour_thy...

[radd in reply to helvella]

Oh hel oops 🤦‍♀️.

Apologies 123Dipsy . I don't want to confuse you further.

[gabkad in reply to radd]

The fibroid thing is interesting because it was noted on ultrasound when I was pregnant, age 24. Recent ultrasound at age 65 showed the same three little fibroids and no change over all these decades. Plus I've used HRT continuously for just over 20 years now.

I know some women have huge problems with fibroids.

Possibly the concern about fibroids growing with HRT is not an issue.

mymenopausecentre.com/gp-re....

[Jeppy in reply to 123Dipsy]

bit expensive but a one off. If you have appointment at Louise Newson zoom whatever, it is prescribed via your gp

[123Dipsy]

Thanks again. I am 60 so post menopause. I probably expected to feel better immediately and had unrealistically high hopes. I will keep fingers crossed that body adapts soon.

[Jeppy in reply to 123Dipsy]

I was same. Things improved a lot with hrt through skin

Videos on her site explain the role of each, my first ever peri menopause symptom was overwhelming sadness and you can hear how dropping totesterone level is at root cause

Sadly I was only ever offered antidepressants? !!!! It's taken years to get sorted

Don't worry about age! Pls study the site

[RedApple Administrator]

It's not the Armour itself causing the depression. It's the wrong dose and/or wrong balance of T4/T3.

You may find you need to add some levothyroxine in as well. For example, 25mcg plus 1 grain armour would be nearer to the 100mcg levothyroxine you were previously taking.

[123Dipsy in reply to RedApple]

Thank you. I guess I just need to persevere and stop crying. I feel embarrassed about how emotional I am.

[RedApple Administrator in reply to 123Dipsy]

Don't be embarrassed. You are unwell. People need to understand that. It's difficult because the general belief is that for hypothyroidism you 'just take a little white pill every day and you're fine'.

But members here understand that, for many of us, it just doesn't work that way.

[123Dipsy in reply to RedApple]

So kind and understanding

[Jeppy in reply to 123Dipsy]

I cried for two decades!!!! Caused by Low totesterone as well as other 2

I never grew a whisker either like other family females 😊

[123Dipsy in reply to Jeppy]

always a silver lining!

[Buddy195 Administrator]

Increased anxiety has been the worst symptom of having a thyroid condition for me and it is always worse if thyroid medication or key vitamins (ferritin, folate, vitamins B12 and D) are not optimal. You are not alone123Dipsy! 🦋

[123Dipsy in reply to Buddy195]

Thanks buddy. Had B12 injections before I moved house. Now buy tablets and have been prescribed folic acd, so guess it all takes time and patience.

[pennyannie]

Hello 123Dipsey and welcome to the forum :

You may have started on too much Armour too soon :

The T4 - Levothyroxine you were taking will take around 6-8 weeks to fully leave your body and it is recommended that we start NDT slow and low on 1/4 grain increments - I went up weekly - but others suggest fortnightly.

Did you take bench readings of your T3 and T4 before starting so you have a reference for future blood tests - and are you monitoring yourself on blood pressure, pulse and body temperature twice daily - am and pm ?

No thyroid hormone replacement works well until your core strength vitamins and minerals are up and maintained at optimal levels -

do you have any current readings for ferritin, folate, B12 and vitamin D ?

There are some people who have Hashimoto's AI thyroid disease who can't tolerate this natural thyroid hormone replacement as it tends to upset their immune system further and these people do better on the synthetic treatment options - of T3 and T4 - just a thought - ?

[123Dipsy in reply to pennyannie]

That is interesting. I did mention to the Dr that I had read on this forum that it might be useful to build up gradually, but he was dismissive and said it wasn’t necessary as I had been on Levo for years and it was just a switch. I didn’t like to press the point as so grateful for the prescription. I do have Hashimotos so if I continue to feel so low I will have to rethink.

[Starseed56 in reply to 123Dipsy]

Goodness 123Dipsy not sure I agree with what that doctor said. There’s a big difference between just taking Levo and switching to NDT which as you know contains T3. In case it helps to know, I switched from 75/100mg Levo to Erfa which is similar to Armour 7 months ago. I felt awful for much of that time, not emotional as much as totally wrecked whilst my body adjusted. My levels are finally good. I went up like this 30mg, 60mg 90 and finally to 120mg which is two grains on which my bloods are currently really good. Can’t say I feel hugely better, but my energy is a little higher. Am waiting an endo appointment to discuss.

So be patient with yourself. We are all different the way we respond to things but I realised I had to give in and just give it time. Good luck 💜

[123Dipsy in reply to Starseed56]

Thanksand I definitely need to persist.

[connyankee in reply to 123Dipsy]

Going through similar experience across the pond with "Thyroid" and not Armour. Prescribed 120mg and I don't care if I live or die. I sleep 12-14 hours. I have no motivation. My emotions are very flat. I've been on this "Thyroid" for 24 days after being on 125 mg Synthroid, and 1.5mcg of Liothyronine (I was taking the Synthroid every other day as I had fallen into a depression and had brain fog and forgot my dosing instructions.) I have Hashi's, too. I went to my Psychiatrist this week and he said that I cannot have any more anti-depressants because "they won't work if my Thyroid is not functioning...." When I read these posts which explain the balances that have to take place within the body in order to be optimal, I feel as if flying a jet plane would be easier to accomplish! This Thyroid disease bites the big one! I am trying to get an appointment with Endocrinologist #7. Praying that he can straighten me out! All best wishes to you. You are not alone in your struggles.

[123Dipsy in reply to connyankee]

I am so sorry to read this and had naively assumed the problem was with the British NHS. I didn’t realise you had the same lack of support in the USA. Thyroid problems are su horrible and so under recognised. Hang on in there!

[connyankee in reply to 123Dipsy]

It's very difficult to get our Endocrinologists to prescribe Armour, or add T3 to T4 because they are under the impression that we're all going to have strokes or heart attacks! And if we do happen to convince them to write a prescription for Armour, our healthcare plan, depending on which one, will reject it for its cost purposes! It's very frustrating to find a good Endocrinologist who will listen to symptoms and who does not have tunnel vision for TSH.

[Delilahmy]

my experience with Armour was a very good one. I was on it quite a few years ago and stopped only because of problems with purchasing it …. And the effort involved in resourcing a new supply. It was the best I have ever felt in my 33 yearsish time with hypothyroid

I am currently on a trial or t3 - now seems like my endo is happy for me to stay in it. I’m feeling the benefits too.

I also SI b12 as deficient. Take cuts with l2 as deficient and have felt great benefits …. Slowly but benefits nonetheless.

Good luck xx

[123Dipsy in reply to Delilahmy]

pleased you have found the T3 helps

[FancyPants54 in reply to 123Dipsy]

Don't give up. The T3 in Armour is lovely and gentle compared to Liothyronine. I used T4 and T3 before but found I felt the peak of T3 too fast and that it vanished too quickly too. Armour I don't feel the peaks, it's comfortable.

I switched from the combo it Armour Christmas 22. I went straight to 2 grains after thinking about it for a while. I'm not saying I got it right but I was taking T3 already so I had to allow for that. In late January 23 I got a heavy cold that really knocked me for six. I was getting nightmares and waking from sleep every night in a right state. After a few days I tried adding a tiny crumb of Liothyronine at the point I woke up and found that I went back to sleep and anxiety-free in 20 minutes of taking it. So I realised that because of the extra demands on my body of the illness, I needed slightly more than 2 grains.

It's been a tough 14 months one way or another and I struggle to get a reasonable FT4 level on Armour so my most recent experiment is adding 25mcg of Levo to the dose. I feel it's a better approach, but I think the dose is too high for me and I might need to reduce the Armour by 1/4 grain. I'm retesting this coming week so I will see what that shows me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's not a simple switch, but it will settle and the T3 in it is lovely. You are too soon into it to make any decisions. No decisions for the first 6-8 weeks at all. Then test and see how much T3 and T4 you have available. Be sure to test using the recommended protocol. Ignore the GP!

I could not imagine 1 grain being enough, so I suspect you need more and the depression and crying is due to that. But some do manage on 1 grain so that's why you need to put up with it and cut yourself some slack until you can retest and get a feel for what's really going on.

[123Dipsy in reply to FancyPants54]

Thanks for this detailed response. As you say, it is probably too early to judge, so I will definitely stick with it for now. Follow up appointment with bloods in 6 weeks time.

[Chett]

Hi, I’ve been taking Armour for a few years, and never had a problem with depression.

[Rhannii7]

Imlike that also, I dont know what to say but im very de P ressed on this stuff

[123Dipsy in reply to Rhannii7]

Thanks for your honesty and Ihope you feel better soon.

[connyankee in reply to Rhannii7]

Maybe folks like us need to be on synthetic T4 + T3.

[BitSpaceEm]

I would say hang in there and retest regularly: I also got changed from 100mg levo, to 1 grain of armour to start with, and had got very sad, for me it was because I wasn’t getting enough, I eventually after retesting and review went up to 1.5 grains then two grains then 2grains with 25mg levo thyroxine.

Ive always found that having not enough thyroid treatment gives me very low mood and depressive symptoms or depression if left long enough.

Hope this helps, the transitions are not fun but I’ve found it so very much worth it once you get there.

[123Dipsy in reply to BitSpaceEm]

That is so reassuring to hear. Thank you.

[connyankee in reply to BitSpaceEm]

So there's hope? I've never heard of taking Levo with Armour. That's very interesting.

[BitSpaceEm in reply to connyankee]

Yea, sometimes your t3 needs are met but your t4 can still be a bit low when taking only armour. For some people this helps smooth out the deficit and the remaining symptoms (if present) so you end up optimal. Also v important for anyone planning pregnancy/conception.

[Rhannii7 in reply to BitSpaceEm]

Thats interesting as my t4 is low on ndt, cant seem to raise it without major issues

[BitSpaceEm in reply to Rhannii7]

Really best to check it with your prescribing Dr, as it’s all very individual but this has been my experience.

[Incoguto]

1 grain of Armour is nowhere near 100 mcg Levo and your symptom suggest you may be underdosed. I'd say you'd need a higher dose.

[123Dipsy in reply to Incoguto]

Thanks for advice. Hopefully dose will change at the next appointment.

[Kimfalmouth]

I took Armour for years, until I could no longer afford it. It was wonderful. For me, 2 grains of Armour was replaced with 100mcg Levo. Felt dreadful, so self sourced T3 to add in. It sounds to me like you need to increase your dose of Armour. I hope you feel better soon.