Anyone used Vitabright Super B Complex?

[TiggerMe]

vitabright.co/products/b-vi...

Or any Vitabright products? I'd not come across them before... British and some organic in range

[edited by admin to remove extraneous info in the link and the picture, as this could be construed as advertising]

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK]

Nutritional Information

Serving Size: 2 Tablets Servings Per Container: 60

Ingredients Amount Per Serving *NRV

Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid) 160 mg 200%

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Hydrochloride) 20 mg 1,818%

Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin-5-Phosphate) 16 mg 1,143%

Vitamin B3 (Niacin as Nicotinamide) 52 mg NE 325%

Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate) 10 mg 714%

Vitamin B9 (Folic Acid as 5-MTHF) 400 µg 200%

Vitamin B12 (Methylcobalamin & Adenosylcobalamin) 900 µg 36,000%

Vitamin B7 (D-Biotin) 300 µg 600%

Vitamin B5 (D-Calcium Pantothenate) 40 mg 667%

Inositol (B8) 200 mg **

PABA (B10) 50 mg **

Choline (B4) as Choline Bitartrate 40 mg **

I am distinctly unimpressed by their use of B4/B8/B10 - those substances are not vitamins and those names are not accepted.

As so often, why put vitamin C in with B12?

And a serving is TWO tablets.

Actual ingredients from website

[TiggerMe in reply to helvella]

I thought it seemed odd that everyone else had 'forgotten' these B's but then it isn't true as they have this chart...

I wonder why Igennus add Vit C to theirs? Yes two tablets like Igennus but handy for some

Comparison

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to TiggerMe]

B4/B8/B10 look to me like marketing and nothing more than that.

Two tablets is important because they claim two to four months supply.

[TiggerMe in reply to helvella]

So not necessarily bad but mislabelled? I'm aware my choline levels could be better and make a point of eating eggs to combat this

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to TiggerMe]

It is an essential nutrient but is NOT in any official list of vitamins that I am aware of.

[radd in reply to helvella]

helvella and TiggerMe

Choline is offically known as an essential nutrient by the Institute of Medicine (not the National Institute for Medical Research 😬), and is often grouped within the B vits although is neither a vitamin or a mineral but an organic, water-soluble compound that is an important part of the methylation process.

Taking methylated Vit B12 & folate long term can risk taking dominance over the choline pathway if you are genetically dispositioned this way. Therefore, once my Vit B12 and folate were optimised for a good couple of years I was told to stop the methylated forms and increase the choline pathway.

Choline can be acquired via dietary sources, supplements but it is also recycled by the liver and methylated to phosphatidylcholine. This is powder form I supplement also known lecithin (I take the sunflower form).

I don't understand the whole methylation process but know that choline can be oxidised to betaine which is another donor of methyl groups to homocysteine and then methionine which is an essential amino acid. Basically you don't want to be low on choline.

[TiggerMe in reply to radd]

Thank goodness you summarized! 😅

I shall re-read... it is ringing bells somewhere but after I last investigated it I opted for eggs.... I'm a bit egged out 🐔

Interestingly estrogen is beneficial to choline production!

[radd in reply to TiggerMe]

Yes and choline is a major player in detoxification of excess O, but we're both on HRT so shouldn't need higher than normal amounts of choline, just enough to keep balance.

As I see it here on the forum is the sway is too far pro-methylated forms of B Vits which not everybody requires and this risks depleting choline levels. Also choline synthesised by the liver is often impaired due to the slowed effects of hypothyroidism and inflammatory autoimmune effects of Hashimotos, so again reducing levels. Add in a few MTHFR genetic impairments within the methylation cycle and again it risks further depletion.

[Bearo in reply to radd]

That’s interesting, Radd, about methylated forms of B vits. Can you add a little more? Who needs to take methylated forms? Which other forms of B12 are worth considering if not needing methylation?

[radd in reply to Bearo]

Bearo

It is not only MTHFR impairments that invite supplementing methylated forms of folate and Vit B12, but hypothyroidism which slows all metabolism including the actions of the MTHFR enzyme. It may also be further impaired by reduced levels of essential nutrients and other enzymes it requires to do its job well. The main methyl donor nutrients are all the B vitamins, methionine, choline, and betaine, and also minerals such as zinc and magnesium (everything a Hashi sufferer is usually deficient in when first diagnosed!).

Therefore, whether we need to supplement and for how long is dependant upon not only an MTHFR mutation result but the depth of the impairment, what other SNP's might be influencing, whole nutritional status, how well managed our hypothyroidism is and lifestyle. Some life style changes can be powerful in encouraging better MTHFR performance such as reducing chemical exposure (I had my amalgam removed), improved management of stress, (yoga, etc), supporting detoxification with a healthy diet, and of course maintaining the ever important good gut health.

We also need to assess how much we supplement as when we regain wellbeing, less is often needed to maintain an optimised level due to previously impaired/deficient supporting factors now being optimised too. And don't forget methylfolate being approx 3x more bioavailable is not dose equivalent to folic acid.

You can only know of your genetic impairments through testing and an informed practitioner to interpret the results. And then what to supplement? Avoid synthetic cyanocobalamin at all costs.

That leaves the bioidentical methyl, hydroxo (hydroxy) and adenosyl which are all cobalamin forms. There is no research showing methylated forms alone to raise levels better than unmethylated and in fact many of the higher end brand supplement companies now include two or even the three forms for a superior bioavailability (kind of covers everything 😁). Some claim one form to enhance performance in certain areas such as adenosyl can boost energy, and hydroxo is good for detox but I’m not sure about these claims.

Lifecode Gx (genetic testing company) offer free talks called Snapshots for practitioners (but you don’t have to be one to sign up) and have one called ’Supporting methylation. To B or Not To B?'. It has lots of clear and simple to understand diagrams of the folate and methionine cycle, and great discussions. The other good place to learn about methylation is Ben Lynch’s book ‘Dirty Genes’ which is a fascinating read.

lifecodegx.com/training (scroll down the page for all webinars/podcasts).

[StitchFairy in reply to radd]

Why do you state to 'Avoid synthetic cyanocobalamin at all costs. '? What's wrong with it? Is that what's used in injections for PA?

[radd in reply to StitchFairy]

StitchFairy,

Cyanocobalamin is a chemically synthesised version of VitB12, cheap to produce, not easily bio-avaiable and contains cyanide. It's name derives from the cyanide group attached to the molecule. Cyanide is a deadly poison and interferes with many bodily systems, especially use of oxygen.

Because of the high doses of Vit B12 many Hashi sufferers require, there is thought that using cyanocobalamin may generate small amounts of cyanide to remain in the body, especially as many Hashi sufferers could find difficulty in utilising it. As many Hashi sufferers also suffer clearance/detox issues, this cyanide may not be dealt with well and even result in decreasing liver/kidney function whilst increasing toxicity.

The easy availability of bioidentical forms of VitB12 make cyanocobalamin easy to avoid.

I don't inject Vit B12 but understand usually hydroxocobalamin is usually used. Interestingly hydroxocobalamin is used in cases of cyanide poisoning.

[StitchFairy in reply to radd]

That sounds a bit scare mongering, but I think I get your point, thanks.

[TiggerMe in reply to StitchFairy]

Scaremongering really isn't Radd's style, thorough deep research and clearly laying out the facts for people to make what they will of them is how Radd rolls

[Lalatoot in reply to TiggerMe]

Yep Radd explains the science that we can't grasp in the original texts.Very handy for a non scientific person like me.

[StitchFairy in reply to Lalatoot]

The point of my question was that radd didn't explain why she advised to avoid cyanocobalamin at all costs.

[radd in reply to StitchFairy]

StitchFairy,

This isn’t new. It is old news now endorsed by many health professionals and NHS that has obviously passed you by, and it would be more beneficial (and kinder) to ask for evidential links for something you don’t like/understand rather that accuse the responder of scaremongering! 😳☹️.

[StitchFairy in reply to radd]

I wasn't meaning to actually accuse you of scaremongering, sorry if that's how it came across. Just that you made a scary comment in your first reply without any info about why you should avoid cyanocobalamin all costs. So I wanted to question it. There may be other people reading and wondering about it too.

So why does cyanocobalamin even exist at all if it's so dangerous? It's on the NHS website as a treatment for PA nhs.uk/medicines/cyanocobal...

[TiggerMe in reply to StitchFairy]

Sadly I think the NHS peddle a lot of cheap meds that won't do 'too much detectable' harm in the short term but are less than idea for continual use, many of us take these things daily so are always looking for the best possible versions.

When given tablets from the GP for iron, B12, Vit D etc they are all the cheapest forms rather than the best available 🫤

[StitchFairy in reply to TiggerMe]

When there's only so much money to go round, I'd rather things like vitamins were economised on so that there can be money for the expensive meds and treatments for the really serious diseases. Better to give twenty starving people a dish of spag bol, instead of a piece of sirloin steak to just one starving person.

[TiggerMe in reply to StitchFairy]

I'd rather they advised people about earlier intervention and self management for those that are inclined to buy the odd pot of Vit D or B complex if only they had known they were on the low side, they nag about cholesterol, alcohol and calorie intake etc... the trouble is when someone becomes deficient in there ranges it tends to come with a raft of other expensive issues to treat

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to StitchFairy]

The principle reason for producing the cyano form is stability.

All other forms of B12 are less stable - to heat, to light, to changes in acidity, etc.

Stability is a major asset. Particularly if the less stable forms require temperature control in distribution and storage. (Light can readily be excluded by good choice of packaging. The thinnest aluminium foil does that almost perfectly.)

This seems an even more significant problem when used in things like supermarket supplements and purchased by customers who have no idea. (Not blaming the customers - none of us know anything until we find out.)

Methyl injections are sometimes distributed frozen! Which is a major negative.

[radd in reply to StitchFairy]

StitchFairy,

helvella has explained the synthetic part much better than I.

I guess the answer to your question is because a supplement contains so little. However, when we take large doses everyday, that little risks becoming not so little.

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK in reply to radd]

It is somewhat misleading to suggest that cyanocobalamin is chemically synthesised.

The main part, the cobalamin with whatever extra part is attached (adenosyl, hydroxo or methyl) is produced by bacterial fermentation processes.

Once produced, it is changed to the cyano form - and that one step might be looked at as chemical synthesis.

I've attached an image of a spreadsheet which shows that in an entire 1000 microgram cyanocobalamin dose, there is less than twenty micrograms of cyanide.

Cyanide toxicity sometimes considered from about one milligram per kilogram. That is, around five hundred times the amount and multiplied by bodyweight. Obviously we are not suggesting cyanocobalamin even has the potential of being fatal. But trying to put some context on quantities.

There is around five times as much in one apple core.

There are many other far more significant sources of cyanide than cyanocobalamin. Including smoke (tobacco and other), apricots (and similar), and cassava.

Plus, because cyanide is so common at extremely low levels in foods, humans do have some capacity to cope with very small quantities.

I argue against cyanocobalamin on the basis that hydroxocobalamin can actually reduce the effect of any ingested or inhaled cyanide and, possibly, some other toxins. Not because of its absolute cyanide content.

Cyanocobalamin is indeed widely used for injecting B12. It is hard to get any other form in many countries including the USA. The UK is something of a rarity in having switched to hydroxocobalamin many years ago. Even here cyanocobalamin can still be provided by the NHS for injection.

And even if we take high oral doses, such as 1000 micrograms, it is unlikely we can absorb more than 10 micrograms Thus the amount of cyanide that could be released within our bodies is ever so small.

[Corrected typo re amount of B12.]

Spreadsheet showing cyanide content

[StitchFairy in reply to helvella]

Thank you for this comprehensive explanation!

[radd in reply to helvella]

And a thank you from me too 😁

[Bearo in reply to radd]

Wow….thanks for the detailed reply!