A friend rang me and during the conversation said she was on CalD3 1000.mgs + 880iu !!
Her Gp said vit D was for bone loss (she is 83) as us old folk all have a defiencity in that, well I never, this is news?
I asked her to read what was on the container and this is what she said. Thei calcium D3, 880iu.
I won't go into all her medical history but what she rang me for is the fact she is running continually to the toilet with very loose stools.
Can anybody decipher the above. - no MK 7 with D3.
Sounds like a supplement with a lot of calcium and very little vit D. Some doctors have the weird idea that a) calcium prevents/cures ostoeporosis and b) calcium and bit D should be taken together. Both are wrong.
Highly unlikely people are calcium deficient in the west, and excess calcium causes a lot of problems, including brittle bones - which is not something someone of 83 needs!
Vit D should be taken with vit K2-MK7 because taking vit D increases absorption of calcium from food (which is far, far better than taking calcium supplements) and the K2 makes sure it goes into the bones and teeth, rather than buildin up in the arteries and soft tissues. So, yes, vit D is good for bones, but I think her GP is a little confused about the calcium.
However, what's also good for bones is magnesium - far more important than calcium. And, vit D and magnesium work together, so should always be taken together.
Seems to me, she should ditch that rubbish supplement and get herself some vit D with vit K2, and some magnesium.
Don't know why she's got the trots, though. Calcium supplements usually have the opposite effect.
Trots puzzled me also, speaking as one who can have a bit of a problem that end due botched surgery moons ago. Will pass on your information and them it is up to her whether she carries. he is trying to get her on a regime that made my hair stand on end, won't bother with details but it sounds very, very experimental and I cautioned her wisdom in doing it, maybe this will make her think twice. She is a very inreligent lady but had a big scare a few months back, so is not using her little grey cells as she normally does.
Thank you greygoose for a very clear explanation.
Oh well, we oldies are expendable! They feel free to experiment on us. Did this doctor even test her calcium levels before prescribing this supplement?
My motto is never ever take nutritional advice from a doctor! They just know nothing about it.
Well, it wasn't as clear as all that! Someone just pointed out to me that I made a huge mistake! I've corrected it now. Hope it helps. Sorry about that. 
still trying to find your big mistake, it is a case of hunt the timble?
No, I said that vit D and calcium work together, when I'd just said previously that they didn't! I meant to say vit D and magnesium work together. I've changed it now.
right - picked that up knew meant the other way round, didn't give it a 2nd thought - my spelling needs serious attention, brain miles ahead of my fingers or hitting wrong key. Bring back the good old fountain pen.
Oh, I love typing! Didn't go much for writing, especially not with a fountain pen! I always managed to crush the nib. 
Well at least you said it, I would not let you near my precious nib!!!
😂
In your 4th paragraph I think you meant to say vit d and magnesium should be taken together rather than vit d and calcium.
That's strange. I corrected that hours ago! Why was the mistake still there? Must be those gremlins again! Anyway, hopefully it stays corrected this time!
Mistakes are easily made, happens to us all. I'm terrible for not putting the negative when I mean to! I do it all the time. I try and read through my post before clicking on reply, but mistakes still creep in! Thank you for your diligence.
Well, we're all reading the "correction" messages, so it doesn't matter now! I would give you a smile but the emoji doesn't work when I click on it.
It's pretty common for doctors to prescribe a pill with a mixture of calcium and vitamin D3 for older people with bone density loss. Their diets are often quite low in calcium because by the time someone is in their eighties they are often not very active so don't eat very big portions.
Calcium can cause upset stomachs so if your friend started with her diarrhoea after starting to take the pill then she needs to go back to the doctor and tell him/her the calcium is upsetting her stomach and she doesn't want to take it. My mum did that and the doc said that was fine, it was the vitamin D that was most important.
880 UI is a fairly standard prescribed dose of vitamin D, she could ask for a vitamin D test if you think she could do with a bigger dose..
Whilst people on these boards may be aware that K2 is a good thing to take with vitamin D3 I don't think that has got through to GPs. If you find a good explanation of the way it works and give it to your friend she could ask her doctor about taking K2.
Thank you JenniferW - this lass is very active, diet perfect, very concious of what she needs and uses ist class ingrients, so I am puzzled why she is just following orders, not like her at all, twenty questions is her middle name. As I said to greygoose she had a very strange but big scare not long ago, doctors tried everything and I mean everything to find the cause and failed. I am worried she will agree to anything because of that. I think she has a bit of fear involved here. Would not dare say that to her, I must add, she is a feisty old lady and a good friend. Thank you for responding, it all helps.
Fear can completely short circuit someone's usual thinking, you've probably put your finger on the cause there.
She would resoundly deny that but I sense a bit of unease, got her back to queationing it all, so that is a good sign. She does know I care very much for her even though we are opposite ends of the UK.
thank you for your reply
I'm always fearful to add a comment about calcium incase I invoke a massive protest but I do have to take the wretched Calci D. Mine has 1000iu of vit D3. (I checked the contents) It was prescribed by a Metabolic Bone Specialist. I queried the necessity of the calcium so my GP was happy to give me the D3 on its own, I bought K2....
Apart from the fact that the nhs vit D3 tabs were the most disgusting tablets I've ever taken I actually had a problem with terrible aches and pains in my bones which only stopped once I relented and went back to the Calci D.
You may all think that it was due to lack of calcium in my diet. Not so. I eat plenty of calcium. The metabolic bone specialist was very impressed with that element of my diet. I've never been able to work out why I need therefore even more calcium... I must have a weird body! This was with an emminent bone specialist at a centre where people travel miles to visit.... I just happened to live locally.
Secondly I thought K2 was only necessary on higher doses of vit D3? I read this somewhere but forgive me can't remember where so not alleging it's gospil.
So please don't shoot me down in flames!!
I have Hypo brain at the moment as am recovering from the effects of the nasty drug Amiodarone that apparantly also should not have been a problem with my NDT but it has.... 🙄🙄
I also get plenty of dietary calcium, but not enough ends up in my bloodstream, so I have problems associated with hypocalcaemia. GPs seem to get irritable and want to browbeat me into accepting it as a non-problem. My parathyroid hormone level is within range. In turn, I get irritable when I see blanket recommendations to avoid dairy or, indeed, any food group.
A family member was hospitalised as a result of COVID-19 this time last year. As a result of dietary restriction while in ICU they were put on calcium+D3 and also alendronic acid. Three further hospital admissions (including two more C-19 infections) during Jan/Feb, and someone messed up the paperwork, such that the alendronic acid was omitted. No-one would sort it out and, recently, the calcium+D3 was stopped. To my knowledge serum and urinary calcium hadn't been checked, but kidney function was worsening, which could be due to C-19, but not helped if excess calcium had to be dealt with.
So sorry to hear this. Very difficult indeed. It's all about balancing g critical risk. Seems they've decided that her kidney function is the priority ut now no-one is dealing with her bone density needs. I'd be inclined to contact the metabolic bonespecialist and ask them to liaise eith cardiology.... So a plan can be formed to address all her needs.
C-19 again, a month ago. Kidney pain, but GP appointment cancelled with no alternative given. Kidneys were fine after ICU but most convenient ward for rehab was Renal. Any Covid-sceptics should see a large ICU (which was due to be enlarged) and understand the potential risk to kidneys or, indeed, any part of the body.
thank you, much appreciated.
will copy and pass on, so glad I asked my qustion, I am learning quite a bit my self. Boy this forum beats all the experts hands down. We, the sufferers are speaking.
If your serum calcium is still low, hv you been given D3? D3 helps you to absorb calcium into your blood from the gut.
If your family member has worsening kidney function it may be that the kidneys are not capable of converting D3 to its active form (vit d is initiated by the sun but needs conversion in the kidneys before it becomes useful). If he/she eats enough calcium they would only need a fully activated form of D3 (one that has already undergone the kidney conversion stage in the lab). The alendronic acid is a bone protector (it doesn’t Hv calcium or vit D in its make-up).
again new information, thank you.
The year I thought I'd get help I made sure to get plenty of sun exposure, but my calcium level actually dropped. I was having regular tests and was due to have PTH tested, but it all fizzled out with my GP getting a bit shouty. Two years later I tried with another, but she was a trainee and the final appointment had an observer, and seemed to be set up as an exercise in reassurance/brow-beating/gaslighting. I might've had genetic testing, but am no doubt considered not part of the breeding stock, so why bother? PTH was tested, eventually, and was in-range but vit D test was messed up at the same time, so I'm not completely sure I can trust the PTH. As I'm not diagnosed as having hypoparathyroidism, no chance at getting alfacalcidol. I have been taking D3+K2 this year, told my new GP I'd taken a loading dose but wasn't tested then, however there's a hint it'll be tested in January, which is probably more sensible. I know from hyporara people that the kidneys can take a battering with non-dietary calcium, which was my concern for family-member - they were testing kidney function and booking repeats, but never checking serum and urinary calcium levels.
First of all are you able to post your last results for calcium and vit d with the ranges? And do you Hv a u&e result with the gfr (these are a kidney blood test). If you haven’t got one to post perhaps you could request it with your January bloods. After seeing the results you Hv to hand I’ll be in a better position to comment.
You have given some excellent data, thank you for taking the time to reply. I am amazed how willing folk are to help, Take care now.
I'm going to have to check what my calcium reading is. Going away tomorrow but I'll be taking my precious laptop so do it then. I'll have plenty of spare time.
It’s maybe useful to be aware that Vit K is used for anticoagulant reversal, so caution is required if on anticoagulants.
Well I didn't know that one, many thanks indeed for replying, passing on all advice, she can then make an educated decision.
It may be advisable to rely on food sources of Vit K rather than supplements if on anticoagulants. That’s what I do.
All newborns are given a vit K injection at birth as their blood does not clot well (I saw a case where the midwives were writing in the babies’ notes that vit K had been given when it hadn’t. One baby went on to die from a brain haemorrhage)!
Sounds like she has been prescribed the classic AdCal that people are prescribed for osteoporosis. I started off on a similar one called Accrete which really upset my gut, I was then moved on to AdCal which tasted quite pleasant but still upset the gut.
In consultation with my fracture nurse it was decided that I was getting enough dietary calcium anyway so I stopped. I now top up with one capsule of Atlantic seaweed based calcium - normal dose 2 a day and I buy my own D3, K2-Mk 7. The fracture clinic nurse hadn’t heard anything about K2 -Mk 7 though.
theindependentpharmacy.co.u...
If you look the side effects can be constipation or diarrhoea. If your friend looks on the ROS website they have a calcium food chooser that she can use to check whether or not she is getting enough in her diet,theros.org.uk/information-a...
They also have one for vitamin D and an online calcium calculator. If she is not getting enough in her diet I’d recommend she find a more gentle source of calcium and buy her own D3. I didn’t think the D3 in the AdCal was enough, I take either 1000iu or 3000 IU depending on my levels.
Must add too much calcium is bad for you as is not enough and yes to magnesium as well.
Hope that helps.
I told her my regime - she never has had to take supplements as her diet is good and I mean good - all natural always. I am not that good ! I am gleaning as much infornation as I can, she will not touch a computer, so I will forward all the advice with it but remove all identifacation 1st. Thank you all for helping me, best wishes to you all.
I wish her all the best. She is very lucky to have you as a very supportive and helpful friend.
She sounds amazing.Just to add magnesium can do simular things to the bowels.... So tread carefully. I can't tolerate any magnesium supplement, even a tiny dose. Brazil or cashew nuts are my go to source. Tasty too!
Hi can you tell me what mk7 is please..thanks
The vitamin K2 comes in several different forms - and one is called K2-MK7.
Thanks helvella. You are obviously an earlier riser than I am 😉
healthline.com/nutrition/vi...
Only sometimes!
Actually usually get up at 06:55 but had a couldn't be bothered to get up morning today.
printed off copies for her, many thanks.
Adcal has 1000iu of D3. So suitable for maintenance. It's about absorption. You may eat plenty of calcium but of you don't absorb it you may need that extra calcium....
thank you, will add this also.
It does indeed, but I eat a diet rich in calcium containing foods - I would rather get my calcium from good food than from supplements
When the calcium was making me feel ill my osteoporosis nurse looked at what I eat and decided I didn’t need the calcium - especially as it was upsetting my gut but I take a small amount of algae based calcium as a top up.
If I were only to take one Adcal a day then I would only get half of the D3 that I need and I know from regular testing that I need more D3 to keep my levels up hence 1000-3000iu depending on my level - even after a hot sunny summer plus three weeks of sunshine in the south of France. So that’s why I take a top up of calcium and D3 separately.
I'm not suggesting Adcal should replace your D3 supplement! Noooo. I appreciate you don't need the Adcal. Lucky you. I eat loads of calcium in my diet. Always have. Bone specialist told me he could see that but I still need the Adcal. It might be because I also had to take an estrogen blocker for 7yrs and believe me that hasn't done my bones any good. So ended up on Alendronic for a couple of years. It's Russian roulette they treat one thing create another problem from that as far as I can see.
I just wanted to raise Adcal because of the strong opinion on here that it's not necessary.... and bad for you. It does serve a purpose for some of us... 😊😊
I just don’t need the ‘cal’ part of AdCal that is basically chalk and that causes gut problems for a lot of people. As Popsicle says it is basically chalk!
I’m very surprised though that you feel there is strong opinion against calcium on this site. It’s not something I have ever picked up on although I do know you need to be careful not to take too much as too much calcium isn’t good for your body.
I regularly say on here that unfortunately doctors treat their own part of your body in isolation and completely ignore the possible nasty knock on effects that their treatments can have on other parts of your body.
No I meant the negative reaction to Adcal. 😂🤣Quite good as it has had me checking why he put me on it.... And then I noticed common with Coeliacs. Maybe my bone man was looking wider than my bones... after all.
Definately a lot nicer than the Potassium tablets they gave me post surgery.... They may have dissolved in a drink but oh my I much preferred bananas!
Adcal is actually calcium carbonate ie chalk! It is not easily absorbed and therefore causes gut symptoms!
Now I did not know that either, I am getting an education here - thank you fir taking the time to reply.
Exactly I used to call Accrete ‘concrete’. I had no idea then that it could upset your gut but you live and learn.
Maybe so. I used to teach... I could have just eaten my chalk sticks then... 😂🤣 Both forms have their uses though... I didn't eat coal either when I was pregnant but I did have a hankering for ice-cream! 😍🤣
Protein is the key building block for bone which is often forgotten about when having this conversation. As we all get older we need to make sure that we increase our intake of protein.
Oh, thank you for this, will add in to email, many thanks.
Strongly recommend she actually test her vitamin D
800iu may not be doing anything to increase vitamin D levels
NHS easy postal kit vitamin D test £31 via
NHS Guidelines on dose vitamin D required
ouh.nhs.uk/osteoporosis/use...
GP will often only prescribe to bring vitamin D levels to 50nmol.
Some areas will prescribe to bring levels to 75nmol or even 80nmol
leedsformulary.nhs.uk/docs/...
GP should advise on self supplementing if over 50nmol, but under 75nmol (but they rarely do)
mm.wirral.nhs.uk/document_u...
But with Hashimoto’s, improving to around 80nmol or 100nmol by self supplementing may be better
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/218...
vitamindsociety.org/pdf/Vit...
Vitamin D mouth spray by Better You is very effective as it avoids poor gut function.
There’s a version made that also contains vitamin K2 Mk7.
One spray = 1000iu
amazon.co.uk/BetterYou-Dlux...
It’s trial and error what dose we need, with thyroid issues we frequently need higher dose than average
Vitamin D and thyroid disease
grassrootshealth.net/blog/t...
Vitamin D may prevent Autoimmune disease
newscientist.com/article/23...
Web links about taking important cofactors - magnesium and Vit K2-MK7
Magnesium best taken in the afternoon or evening, but must be four hours away from levothyroxine
betterbones.com/bone-nutrit...
medicalnewstoday.com/articl...
livescience.com/61866-magne...
sciencedaily.com/releases/2...
Interesting article by Dr Malcolm Kendrick on magnesium
drmalcolmkendrick.org/categ...
Vitamin K2 mk7
betterbones.com/bone-nutrit...
healthline.com/nutrition/vi...
Ideally she would also test her B12, folate and ferritin levels too
Low B12 extremely common once over 60
Good diet has little effect if gut absorption is poor
Load stomach acid more common as we get older
Will suggest she does this, not sure GP will oblige but private is an alternative, in for a shock when she see prices!
I am on 1500 mg/400 iu chewable tablets calcium and Vitamin D3 twice a day. It doesn't have that effect on me; it just makes me very thirsty. I am nearly 79. I have just got my 6th compression fracture, which is why I take the colecalciferol. I probably have got osteoporosis though I have not received a definitive diagnosis.
I will be talking soon to my haematologist, so we can have a little discussion about these tablets. I ditched the Alendronic Acid after nine months and even after those few months, my dentist noticed disturbing changes. My supplements man has just sent me some Magnesium, which I am sure is something that I could make use of.
thank you for responding, it is always useful to get 1st hand accounts, I hope the magnesium helps, I can only take twice weekly but even that amount makes a difference. Take care.
Thanks, I don't have any answers - just another couple of patches to a puzzlng quilt that needs a few more people to add squares and perhaps we will have anwers.
amen to that.
Ask your Gp for a bone density scan. They aren’t too expensive, so they shouldn’t say no. My appointment came through within 6 weeks.
You might benefit from a calcium infusion which might save you from having to take the tablets.
They won't give me another scan. The last one I got was within the time limit and begrudgingly given. I didn't know about calcium infusions. I'll have to check whether i actually need calcium at all. I'm probably within range. I'm afraid the combination of calcium and Pregabalin have contributed to my chronic kidney failure. You'd think the surgery would have called me in for an appointment but, as someone else said, the elderly are dispensible.
Sorry to hear you are being ignored. I just thought with having all those fractures that an infusion might help. My cousin said the pain calmed down in her spine fracture after her 1st infusion.
I'm putting up with the pain. Am going away tomorrow morning and the oramorph they gave me at the hospital makes me sick - that's something new. So I have Tramadol at night with the Pregabalin and paracetamol the rest of the time. I'd have to go to the surgery first, I suppose before I could get anything else.😊
Oh my goodness! Have a gentle hug from me.
I hope you enjoy your holiday ☺️
Thanks. It's not anywhere particularly sunny - Llandudno. I'll be getting some rest and completing little tasks while I can get some time alone.
Nothing wrong with Llandudno. Enjoy your rest
Thank you for this post. I have Osteopenia and have been given calcium/vitD tablets too. They made me feel dreadful. Really windy tummy which was very uncomfortable and potentially embarrassing. Difficult to take too as they needed to be 4 hours from thyroid meds and I’m on levo and T3.
My calcium levels have always been pretty good though (top 1/4 of range at last test), so I’m thinking I have enough from my diet. It’s the vitD that always drops low with me, so I supplement that. I’m just really concerned about getting osteoporosis. My cousin has it bad and has calcium infusions. I have a feeling it’s in our family with the Hashimoto’s. My vitD was on 21 when I was first diagnosed. I think there should be more information on this so that people at risk can be tested. I feel that my un-treated (and ignored) Hashimoto’s along with low vitD has caused my low bone density. Thankfully I kept on about it and was tested this year. But most people don’t even know to ask.
If your friend likes sardines, they are a good source of calcium. A little tin of those is about 400mg of calcium. I’m not keen on fish, but those and mackerel fillets I’m ok with.
t3.. t4.....???????????????????
please can any one tell me what a normal reading of this sort should be and what all this t3. t4 mean
Cause for concern. How can this be ? How can doctors sleep at night ?
GP appointment today - this is what's come out of it...
Follow up from TSH at 37
Update on Vitamin D3 test
