Armour

[SuzanneHowland]

Just joined the group... thank you! Hoping for some help, been on levothyroxine now for over 23 years, it was effective for a few years, but the weight, joint aches started and got worse. The usual for underactive thyroid. Anyway fast forward 20 plus years, the weight sticks better than Gorilla Glue.. the joints well. So I started to take Scottish Seaweed Iodine, as researched that it can help, was on it for around 18 months, but was advised to stop taking as this can make the condition worse, which it did hair, nails and skin suffered. So now found Armour. 6 weeks in and I can notice the changes, however I need to know really on times to take it, and ideal dosage (I know this will differ). I started on 1/2 grain and slowly increased, but notice a chest heaviness and sleep pattern has changed along with night sweats again. Currently on 2.5 grains and think its too much. Was taking in it in the morning, but then researched and you should not take it with coffee. Has anyone else started on Armour, have you found any better suited time to take it? General advice really. I do not want to stop taking, I have noticed a massive change in only a few weeks. I just have to find how to manage the side effects.

[SeasideSusie Remembering]

Welcome to the forum SuzanneHowland .

Any thyroid hormone, synthetic or NDT, should be taken on it's own, one hour before or two hours after food, with water for an hour each side. No other medication or supplements for 2 hours (although some do need a 4 hour gap). This is to ensure that nothing interferes with it's absorption.

Some people take their hormone in one daily dose, others split it and I think it's more common to split the dose with NDT, but everyone is different so it's trial and error to find what suits you.

As you're up to 2.5 grains it would be a good idea to test you levels for thyroid - TSH, FT4 and FT3 - and if you've not got recent results for key nutrients it's best to test those as well as they need to be at optimal levels for any thyroid hormone to work properly, so that's Vit D, B12, Folate and Ferritin.

For thyroid tests we always advise:

* Book the first appointment of the morning, or with private tests at home no later than 9am. This is because TSH is highest early morning and lowers throughout the day.

In fact, 9am is the perfect time, see first graph here, it shows TSH is highest around midnight - 4am (when we can't get a blood draw), then lowers, next high is at 9am then lowers before it starts it's climb again about 9pm:

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...

If we are looking for a diagnosis of hypothyroidism, or looking for an increase in dose or to avoid a reduction then we need TSH to be as high as possible.

* Nothing to eat or drink except water before the test - have your evening meal/supper as normal the night before but delay breakfast on the day of the test and drink water only until after the blood draw. Certain foods may lower TSH, caffeine containing drinks affect TSH.

* If taking thyroid hormone replacement, last dose of Levo should be 24 hours before blood draw. If taking NDT or T3 then last dose should be 8-12 hours before blood draw, split dose and adjust timing the day before if necessary. This avoids measuring hormone levels at their peak after ingestion of hormone replacement. Take your thyroid meds after the blood draw. Taking your dose too close to the blood draw will give false high results, leaving any longer gap will give false low results.

* If you take Biotin or a B Complex containing Biotin (B7), leave this off for 3-7 days before any blood test. This is because if Biotin is used in the testing procedure it can give false results (most labs use biotin).

These are patient to patient tips which we don't discuss with phlebotomists or doctors.

[pennyannie]

Hello Suzanne and welcome to the forum :

I switched from T4 Levothyroxine to Natural Desiccated Thyroid - around 6 years ago and am much improved, and after around 6 months I noticed my weight started to change, I don't have scales but over the course of the next year I found my clothes around 2 sizes too big for me.

I started on 1/2 grain and as any thyroid hormone replacement is best taken on an empty stomach did this at around 3.00 am when I naturally wake up for the toilet break and which also dovetails in with the circadian rhythm of the body.

I then slowly increased my dose weekly, some suggest fortnightly, by 1/4 grains :

I monitored myself on my blood pressure, pulse and body temperature am and pm :

The first 2 remained stable and I tracked my temperature rise from 35.5 to 36.6 :

When I reached 1+ 3/4 grains I felt a bit worse than the previous week and uncomfortable in my skin - so dropped back down to 1 + 1/2 grains and then stayed on that dose for 6-8 weeks and then ran a blood test to compare to my bench blood test readings from when on T4 - Levothyroxine.

My T3 and T4 had virtually swopped places as now my T3 was 110% and my T4 20% through the ranges - I felt very good and am still on around this dose - as different batches of NDT - can be slightly different - and you just need to start trusting and listening to you body.

No thyroid hormone works well until your core strength vitamins and minerals are up and maintained at optimal - so I know now that i need to keep my ferritin at around 100 : folate around 20 : active B12 75++ ( serum B12 500++ ) and vitamin D up at around 100:

It is generally suggested that when and if you reach 2 grains NDT - either single or split dose - you need to stay on that dose for 6-8 weeks and then run a blood test to compare to your bench mark readings and generally we track on the T3 reading.

So, I'm not sure if you have bench mark readings, but maybe run a TSH, T3 and T4 blood test as a minimum which can be a simply finger prick postal blood test.

I also think you should drop down to your previous dose, where you felt ok and stay on that dose 6-8 weeks letting it settle in and then think about running a full thyroid blood panel since conversion of T4 into T3 can also be compromised by low nutrients, inflammation and antibodies - so choosing a full thyroid panel to include same - would give us a much better picture of how we can help you manage your thyroid health.

Do you have a diagnosis of Hashimoto's as with this AI thyroid disease you are liable to erratic own daily thyroid hormone production so this also needs to factored in :

If you go into Thyroid UK - the charity who support this forum - thyroiduk.org - you will find full details of private companies who run the blood tests - and then you simply start a new post with all the results and ranges and you will be talked through your next best steps to optimise your health.

[Jazzw]

You went from half a grain to 2.5 grains in 6 weeks? Yikes. That was a bit on the impatient side. I get it, I really do, that desperation to feel well again, but it’s easy to miss your “sweet spot” on Armour.

Ideally, you’d only raise half a grain every 2 weeks. So at this point, you should be just getting around to starting 2 grains. No matter, you’ve done what you’ve done.

But it’s time to stick before you twist again. In fact, I think I’d drop back to 2 grains given what you’ve said. It tends to be a reasonably safe level to be on—if it’s too much it’ll only be slightly too much and if it’s not enough, it’s still enough to keep you ticking over.

But you need to stay on 2 grains (or 2.5 if you decide to stick there instead) for 6 weeks. No more tinkering. You need the T4 and T3 to stabilise in your body for a few weeks and then you need to test, to see what your FT3 and FT4 levels are doing (your TSH will most likely be suppressed but that’s to be expected on Armour).

Most will say take it on an empty stomach but if you want to take it with coffee the key is consistency—do the same thing every day.

Some people find it useful to split their dosage. I’m on 3 grains and take half in the morning and half in the evening—I find that keeps me on a really even keel.

[Beau55 in reply to Jazzw]

Jazzw I think commonly a lot of practionioners starts people on 1 grain with a half grain increase every few weeks if there is no intolerance symptoms. So being at 2.5 after 6 weeks isn’t totally unheard of x

[Jazzw in reply to Beau55]

No, I agree. I started on a grain. But I was going by what the OP said they’d done, which was having half a grain as a starting point. And I’ve always taken the view you should stop around the 2 grain mark for a few weeks to see how that works out for a bit. Over the years I’ve seen a few people get themselves into trouble by zooming up too fast and then getting into a pickle while they try to undo being over medicated.