Antibodies

[1839]

Hi Folks, My thyroid antibodies are very high, can anyone suggest ways of getting them within range please?

Thyroglobulin Antibodies 2046.0. (range 0-115)

Thyroid Peroxidase Antibodies 97.7 (range 0-34)

[helvella Administrator Thyroid UK]

Basically, reduce the amount of thyroid peroxidase in your bloodstream.

That is what triggers TPOab.

But that only pushes the question down the corridor. How do you do that?

I don't think anyone has a properly researched answer to that.

Remember, the TPOab don't themselves seem to do anything to make you ill.

[SlowDragon Administrator]

What are your most recent thyroid results

TSH, Ft4 and Ft3

Plus vitamin D, folate, B12 and ferritin results

High thyroid antibodies confirms autoimmune thyroid disease also called Hashimoto’s

Are you currently on strictly gluten free diet or dairy free diet

Many Hashimoto’s patients see TPO antibodies slowly reduce on anti inflammatory diet…..that frequently means gluten free, often dairy free too

TG antibodies tend to reduce the lower TSH drops ……so as dose levothyroxine/T3 is fine tuned to keep TSH low

How much levothyroxine (and T3?) are you currently taking

[1839 in reply to SlowDragon]

Hi. My TSH is currently high at 5.42, my FT4 12.2 (range 12-22) T3 3.9 (range 3.1-6.8)

Ferritin is high at 490 (range 39-400). B12 is showing as high at 8 on a Genova test scale, Folate is also high at 9 on that scale. I haven’t a vitamin D result. Genova scale shows range 8-10 as high need for support

I am on a gluten free diet and also dairy free, however, do have some goat and sheep cheese.

At the time of the TSH test I was on 25mcg T3 and 100 mcg T4. Today I have adjusted the T3 to 30mcg daily.

[SlowDragon Administrator in reply to 1839]

At the time of the TSH test I was on 25mcg T3 and 100 mcg T4.

Was test done early morning and last dose levothyroxine 24 hours before test.

Do you normally split your T3 as 2 or 3 smaller doses spread through the day

Day before test always split…….Last 1/3rd of daily T3 dose approx 8-12 hours before test

Are you male or female?

Approx how much do you weigh in kilo?

[1839 in reply to SlowDragon]

Yes test done early morning and T4 taken 24 hrs before, last dose of T3 taken more than eight hours before. The T3 dose split as 15mcg morning and 10mcg late afternoon/early evening. T4 taken in morning with T3

I am male and 89 kilos

[SlowDragon Administrator in reply to 1839]

Weight 89kg

So likely to need higher dose levothyroxine eventually

As you have increased T3 this time…..Retest 6-8 weeks after increasing T3

Suggest you try increasing levothyroxine after next test

Many people find they need both Ft4 and Ft3 at least 50-60% through range

Guidelines on dose levothyroxine by weight when ONLY on levothyroxine is approx 1.6mcg per kilo per day. That would be approx 142mcg levothyroxine per day if only taking levothyroxine

Adding small dose T3 ….typically dose levothyroxine reduced by around 25mcg.

[1839 in reply to SlowDragon]

many thanks, much appreciated.

[1839 in reply to 1839]

Will the Ferratin level reduce if my TSH drops or is there something you can suggest to help it reduce into normal levels?

Any suggestions about the Folate and Vitamin. D levels please.

[SlowDragon Administrator in reply to 1839]

As TSH reduces with increasing dose levothyroxine or T3 you should see TG antibodies reduce

Personally I would increase levothyroxine by 25mcg initially…..then retest in 6-8 weeks

only increase levothyroxine or T3 at any one time….not both at once

[1839 in reply to SlowDragon]

Thankyou

[greygoose]

Even if you got them down to zero - which is impossible - you would still have Hashi's, because the antibodies are not the disease, they are the result of the disease.

[1839 in reply to greygoose]

Do high antibodies create symptoms in themselves?

[greygoose in reply to 1839]

Some people say they cause inflammation, but I don't know about that. I don't think they do cause symptoms. They have a job to do - cleaning up the blood - and they do it. I believe they are actually necessary.

[1839 in reply to greygoose]

That’s interesting about inflammation, some months ago my hands, feet, lower legs and part of my neck swelled up with inflammation, the pain was off the scale, this is now under control with a reducing amount of steroids, however, the consultant rheumatologist couldn’t identify what had caused it.

[greygoose in reply to 1839]

Well, there's nothing to say that it was the antibodies. Inflammation can be caused by all sorts of things. I just don't know.

[radd]

1839

Antibodies cause inflammation by their very nature and a little inflammation is healing but depending on our state of health we all have a different tipping point for when that ‘healthy’ amount becomes destructive. The reasoning behind trying to reduce thyroid antibodies is to reduce the inflammation they cause both directly & indirectly. This was a part of my reply to another member 2 years ago ...

'As amongst a whole host of complex physiologic processes all mediated by the immune system high inflammation (caused directly or indirectly by thyroid antibodies) can suppress the HPT axis (hypothalamus-pituitary-thyroid), decrease both the number & sensitivity of thyroid hormone receptors, and impair conversion of T4-T3. 

On top of all that elevated inflammation (high antibodies) predisposes us to other autoimmune conditions. What started off as Hashi hypothyroidism that even when optimally medicated with replacement hormones is still accompanied by aches and pains, post nasal drip, recurring UTI’s or fungal infections, wounds that don’t heal, dry itchy skin, more intolerance of foods, dairy, alcohol, heat, scratchy clothes, anything and everything, and then more autoimmune conditions such as PA, Type 1 Diabetes, RA, Sjogrens, etc and once we get into that reactive cycle it is difficult to get out unless inflammation is reduced'.

The rest of my reply may be read here .. ... healthunlocked.com/thyroidu....

[1839 in reply to radd]

Hi. Many thanks for your detailed reply which is incredibly interesting. Can you suggest any other measures I can pursue to reduce the level of antibodies? as mentioned I am on a GF diet and mostly dairy free and am taking steps to reduce my TSH, Two of the things that had been previously suggested were low dose Naltrexone and Aloe Vera supplements, I have tried both of these and not noticed any particular success.

Your advice would be very much appreciated.

[radd in reply to 1839]

1839,

Oh, its all so tricky isn’t it but think of the immune system as two parts - innate (born with) & adaptive (acquired to fight microbes, etc) that have to work together and be balanced for good health. However, autoimmune disease causes change/response or is the result of the adaptive immune system whilst the inflammation created (antibodies) cause change/response from the inmate creating imbalance and so further dysfunction. 

In basic terms inflammation is essentially WBC's and proteins known as antibodies made to protect us. We generally think of antibodies as useful in fighting off a specific invader, acquired through the immune system (or by vaccine) but when the two immune systems aren’t balanced through causes such as mould, fluoride, high oestrogen levels, food intolerances, etc it creates the dysfunctional immunity we know as autoimmunity which also drives itself.

A genetic disposition and stress is another common cause and research shows uncontrolled stress to activates pathways involving the inflammatory immune messengers associated with Hashi and so it becomes a vicious circle of one driving the other. 

Vit D and fish oils are known to reduce inflammation and so possibly thyroid antibodies. Research evidences selenium to be effective in reducing actual thyroid antibodies. The other thing that helped me but was a huge commitment was to have all my amalgam out. I also addressed gut issues and became more mindful over reactions from what I was eating. Gluten & dairy intolerances are common but there are many others too, such as celery, grains, corn, fillers in meds, etc, etc …. If we are still eating foods that cross-react it will keep inflammation high and self perpetuating. Even surges of insulin from hypoglycaemia (caused by common adrenal  issues) or just excess sugar will activate certain inflammatory chemicals associated in promoting Hashi (IL6 & IL17). 

Reactive foods (& low thyroid hormone) will also cause gut issues. A huge part of the immune system cells live in an area of the gut called GALT (gut associated lymphoid tissue) just under the intestinal lining surface. This should contain good bacteria (flora) that interacts with the cells in GALT and are critical for helping immune cells mature but when absent, will cause the immune system to dysfunction.

Also don’t focus on the level of antibodies but symptoms which will make you more mindful as to the cause, as something is driving your abnormal immune response. It’s about reducing what is causing those immune dysfunctions and unwanted inflammation, and it can be a single factor or a huge combination of things . 

I recommend reading The Root cause by Isabella Wentz and for more in-depth but understandable insight any Datis Kharrizian books are excellent.

[1839 in reply to radd]

Hi. That’s very helpful thanks very much, I will have a look at those books.

I have in fact had all my old almalgums removed undertaken with the specialist X-rays to ensure nothing left.

Thanks again