Hello,
I was wondering if anyone is able to help with dutch test results for cycle mapping - mapping the patterns of estrogen and progesterone throughout a cycle. I am still struggling with hair loss so thought this might give me some insight. The way I am reading it is lower than desired progesterone and the ratio of estrogen and progesterone is slightly off?
I have no hope my gp with be interested in this.
Many thanks for any insight.
By the way I am 33 with subclinical hypo.
Hi Aurora88,
One of the other forum members radd
mentions Dutch tests in some of their replies to other posts. If they can help I'm sure they will.
I've just notified them for you; hope that's ok radd?
Best wishes.
Aurora88,
The greyed lines are the ranges and the box underneath is just noting your exact results as shown on the graphs. In the follicular stage you are expecting lower hormonal levels, then oestrogen should raise during ovulation (around days 14- 15), and then reduce as progesterone raises during luteal phase (around days 21-25).
Each metabolite only shows a fraction of your overall total, & they should roughly parallel each other. It’s easy to see you favour E2 slightly over E1, and have a progesterone drop mid luteal phase. b-Pg refers to beta pregnanediol (metabolite of progesterone) which is the most common but alpha (a-Pg) is what helps with sleep, calmness, etc by turning into other metabolites, mainly allo that crosses the blood brain barrier and supports GABA.
This is where you need an experienced practitioner trained in deciphering these metabolite patterns that offers them information on your production, usage and excretion of these hormones, and how your ovaries, etc are working. For example if we show to have enough of a certain hormone it may not be because we are producing adequate but our excretion is poor so the hormone hangs about raising levels. Some metabolites can even change forwards and then revert back.
I needed DIM to promote more efficient metabolism of oestrogen by supporting a more protective metabolic 2-hydroxestrone rather than 16-hydroxyestrone of which high levels have been shown to be pro carcinogenic. I also used Ca D-Glucarate for liver detoxification of oestrogen & xenobiotics. It is common to have a congested liver with steroid hormones if there are imbalances in production, etc. You may need something different and this is where a practitioner comes in.
The ratio result is about the balance between O & P and the ranges are shown at the bottom of the page for each phase. Yours are slightly out as in higher E2 but it's minimal. Creatinine is measured to asses hydration which influences how O & P present in urine results, and your first result is slightly under range which means hormones may have been presenting slightly higher than their true value in this window anyway.
LH & FSH are pituitary hormones, as are prolactin & TSH. TSH correlates positively and the first two inversely with prolactin. Therefore, if TSH is raised, so prolactin will be and LH & FSH will fall. Because these are a part of our cycles regulation, a high TSH can result in cycle changes and infertility. There are also connections between prolactin and DHEA which tends to fall in line with cortisol and is a precursor of E1 & E2.
Your results will be influenced by life style, diet, etc and also ostrogen that can be quite influential if your hypothyroidism is Hashi driven. Cycle mapping isn't recommend of you are using birth control. Are you having irregular/heavy periods or ttc?
Thank you.
My periods have changed and now the cycle ranges from 23-29 days. I have anxiety and feel just uncomfortable in my body a lot of the time - on edge. My other dutch test showed high free cortisol which looks like it doesnt get metabolised well, along with below range dhea production.
I have had hair loss for a nearly three years. I thought maybe stress related and I am wondering if the cortisol and low progesterone could be the cause?
Thanks a lot for your input. really appreciate it.
Aurora88,
High cortisol and low DHEA are symbolic of the first stages of adrenal fatigue.
Cortisol is the stress hormone that can make you feel anxious & 'on edge' when in abundance, whilst progesterone is the calming, anti-inflammatory and sleep promoting hormone. You not only have extra high amounts of jittery-ness but have lost the soothing effects at the same time. Double whammy!
If it's not being metabolised and excreted well then cortisol levels will continue building whilst receptors become de-sensitised through continuous saturation. Ongoing high cortisol will also encourage unwanted symptoms such as poor sleep, blood sugar issues, muscle wastage, weight gain, etc.
Your oestrogen & progesterone aren't that much out of synch because you are slightly low in both. Most suffer higher oestrogen than progesterone but I had both low as well.
Both cortisol & progesterone are made from a pre-hormone called pregnenalone and it is thought that when under stress pregnenolone will favour cortisol (survival mechanism) at the expense of progesterone which eventually becomes low.
Oestrogen reduces with age but also with ovarian insufficiency caused by disarrangement of pituitary gland function, or hypothalamic amenorrhea possibly due to years of inadequate thyroid hormone.
High cortisol will be directly effecting how thyroid hormone is utilised and low thyroid hormone levels will be compromising adrenal function. You previously said you were subclinical. Are you medicating thyroid hormone replacements yet?
There are also many really good adaptogens to help control elevated cortisol production and realign the HPA axis. Are you taking anything?
Inadequate thyroid hormone can be responsible for hair loss as can low iron (possibly caused by low thyroid hormone or poor gut absorption caused by elevated cortisol ). Also by androgens that raise in the presence of lowering O & P.
Thanks again for your detailed response.
I havent tried adaptogens really (ashwaganda a while ago but then read it can make thyroid worse). I am a bit apprehensive to try things incase they make things worse. Although I did actually use some progesterone cream not too long ago before i had my dutch results as I just thought maybe that was what was happening and I honestly felt soo calm when I took it. it was like I had taken a valium. I didn't use much and I know its not wise to do these things without guidance. But I was just curious and it did seem to make me feel better. Funnily enough I love liquorice tea and have been drinking that for ages; I read recently it raises cortisol so I've stopped that now.
My iron levels are fine. My thyroid actually isn't too bad?
TSH - 0.34 (0.35 - 5)FT4 - 15 (12-22)
FT3 - 4.6 (3.1 - 6.8)
T4 - 70 (66 - 181)
I guess slightly low?
No TPO antibodies but 330 of TGAB.
I've always been within these ranges - nothing seems to be getting worse.
Are you medicating any thyroid hormone replacement?
btw - reply by clicking on the blue 'reply' button or else I'm not notified of your response.
no I've never taken any replacement. Don't think I need it?
TSH - 0.34 (0.35 - 5)
FT4 - 15 (12-22) - 30%
FT3 - 4.6 (3.1 - 6.8) - 40%
T4 - 70 (66 - 181) - 3 %
You look hypothyroid to me (or subclinical). Although TSH hasn’t risen your total T4 is only 3% through range, FT4 30% & FT3 40% and most importantly you are symptomatic.
When TSH doesn’t rise in response to decreasing thyroid function, it may indicate a problem with the pituitary (that secretes TSH) and not necessary the thyroid gland. This is called Central Hypothyroidism.
I love Ashwagandha and yes, it can be tricky to take for a minority but usually those with unmanaged immune system problems as it’s a nightshade. I don’t have any symptoms of high cortisol but Ashwagandha just helps me sleep better and think with more clarity. I take it on and off for 4 - 6 weeks in a cycle and less so during the summer.
Liquorice increases over all cortisol levels by inhibiting something (can’t remember which) that controls cortisol production. It also has cortisone-like effects, and cortisol and cortisone are some of those that can switch from one to the other meaning metabolite manipulation can easily make more active available. It is also known to raise BP.
Holy basil and rhodiola get good reports. I have supplied a link below from Datis Kharrizian (very respected function doctor) who explains the how high cortisol comes about, the damage it can wreak, and how to control it.
There is not a great deal of progesterone in OTC progesterone cream so if it makes you feel better, I would be using it.
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drknews.com/protect-brain-b...
Thank you for your reply.
I did take ashwaganda for a while but then stopped due to fear it could mess something up.
I wonder if my use of liquorice tea has been damaging then.
This is my intuition - high stress/anxiety (i did have a horrible experience in 2019 which started this off), has caused an unbalanced ratio of cortisol and dhea, which has caused lower than ideal levels of progesterone and estrogen. I also think the low dhea may be contributing to lower than ideal thyroxine.
Do you think that could be the case?
I have been reading about maca as a way to increase dhea. Do you have any thoughts on this?
Thanks again.
Aurora88,
DHEA’s metabolites do turn in to estradiol (& testosterone, etc) but it is made primarily by the adrenals and less so by the gonads, and usually when cortisol becomes balanced DHEA will follow. Therefore, if this were me I would be looking to reduce cortisol as my first line of action.
As DHEA is also a neuro-steroid it is capable of enhancing psychological well-being, so as cortisol starts lowering your anxieties should ease, and as DHEA starts raising it should offset any remaining. If you are worried about adaptogens (which can be very powerful) why don’t you see a practitioner to help you identify the correct supplements? Especially as you’ve had this pretty comprehensive testing already done.
Regarding your intuition, you advise of a 2019 event that triggered this response but it really is a chicken & egg scenario as to what came first. Low levels of thyroid hormone can raise cortisol levels as the body tries to compensate but on the flip side and a little more complicated are the effects of the adrenal axis (physiologic or/and pathologic) on thyroid function, ie prolonged elevated cortisol can suppress TSH whilst low cortisol levels elevate TSH. DHEA should balance cortisol but once the high cortisol distorts the ratio above a certain point DHEA will start reducing and eventually cortisol follows.
I have no real experience of Maca so can't comment but you could put another post up for other members input.
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Help with test results please!
