Response CCG Re: T3 HELP: I have finally... - Thyroid UK

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Response CCG Re: T3 HELP

Flecmac profile image
38 Replies

I have finally received a response from my local CCG . However my complaint was not successful. I would appreciate any pointers in how to respond to them. I enclose an edited copy..................

.........I am writing to let you know the outcome of our investigation into your complaint about the the decision of N.............. CCG not to prescribe liothyronine (T3) in primary care.

Please accept my apologies for the delay in providing you with a complaint response and I understand that our Patient Experience team has kept you informed. I appreciate that these delays are not helpful and will have added to your frustrations and I apologise for this.

Your complaint has been reviewed by Ms.............., Senior Medicines Optimisation Pharmacist, and Ms..............., Primary Care Pharmacist, from our Medicines Management team and they have provided me with information so that I can respond to you.

I understand from your complaint that you were first referred to Dr.............. based at N................. University Hospitals NHS Trust in 2010 and that Dr............... refused to see you as he did not consider that your symptoms were related to thyroid issues. You then asked your GP to refer you to a private endocrinologist, Dr S.............based in B.............., who told that your symptoms were due to undiagnosed hypothyroidism since 2004.

In late 2020, your GP referred you to Dr.................. NHS endocrinologist based in C............... and you attend the Endocrinology & Metabolism Centre.

Dr................. started you on a trial of T3 in combination with a lower dose of levothyroxine (T4) in December 2020. However, Dr............... has advised you that he would not be able to prescribe T3 for you beyond the end of the trial, due to NICE guidance.

I understand, from additional information you have recently provided, that you are monitored by Dr.............. every 5 to 6 months and you remain on T3 in combination with T4. Dr............... has told you that the hospital and C.............. CCG is not responsible for providing the prescriptions on a long-term basis and that this is the responsibility of your GP as your prescriptions via the hospital could end at any time.

However, you have looked at the guidance and note that GPs can prescribe T3, under the direction of an NHS endocrinologist, but this does not appear to be the case in N................. and so your GP is unable to prescribe this for you.

Since starting this treatment, you say have noticed an improvement in your primary symptoms, particularly with sleep, appetite and a general improvement in your wellbeing which is evidence to you that you need T3 to function. Without T3, you took multiple medications for depression, anxiety, emotional outbursts, IBS, chronic pain and fatigue, high cholesterol, migraine and insomnia. You regularly saw your GP about these symptoms who prescribed many medications for you at a high cost to the NHS.

You say that to discontinue the T3 would mean that you would face a return to chronic illness, poor life quality and more stress and anxiety. The only other option for you would be to pay for a private prescription, which would be costly, or order T3 online through informal sources in Europe which may not be sustainable in the future. These actions would be risky and unaffordable due to your personal circumstances.

You feel that both medications should be available on prescription for you as a clinical need has been recognised by Dr..................

I am sorry to learn about the health difficulties that you have experienced and can appreciate how distressing this must be for you.

I have addressed the issues raised in your complaint below:

You feel that both medications should be available to you on prescription as a clinical need has been recognised by you endocrinologist.

Why do N........................ CCG not follow the NICE guidance regarding prescribing T3?

I understand that you have recently provided additional information regarding this statement which is that Dr.................... has clearly recognised a clinical need for T3 (in combination with T4) otherwise he would have stopped prescribing T3 as soon as blood results showed that this was not necessary. You do not have evidence from Dr...................... quoting a ‘clinical need’; however, you would hope that the fact that you are still taking T3 under his instruction would be sufficient evidence.

You say that you have enough T3 to last you until July 2022 when you will be seeing Dr…............. again; however, as you have previously informed me, there is no guarantee beyond the trial that another prescription will be allowed by C............. CCG and there never has been.

Ms...........advises that the N................... Area Prescribing Committee (NAPC) policy is ‘that T3 (liothyronine) treatment for hypothyroidism (either alone or in combination with T4 [levothyroxine]) is no longer available through the NHS. The policy does not apply to patients treated privately.’

This is a local policy which applies to prescriptions from GPs and from NHS endocrinology clinics and is based on the position statement ‘The diagnosis and management of primary hypothyroidism’ which is endorsed by the Royal College of Physicians, the Society for Endocrinology, the British Thyroid Association, the British Thyroid Foundation Patient Support Group, and the Royal College of General Practitioners.

I have attached a copy of the policy for your reference along with a patient information leaflet and I hope these documents will be helpful to you.

NICE guideline NG145 Thyroid disease: assessment and management (2019) states in section 1.3. Managing primary hypothyroidism, as below:

1.3.3 Offer levothyroxine as first-line treatment for adults, children and young people with

primary hypothyroidism.

1.3.4 Do not routinely offer liothyronine for primary hypothyroidism, either alone or in

combination with levothyroxine, because there is not enough evidence that it offers benefits

over levothyroxine monotherapy, and its long-term adverse effects are uncertain.

Ms….............has reviewed the NICE guidance and informs me that, overall, the evidence from seven randomised controlled trials suggested that combination treatment with levothyroxine and liothyronine did not offer any important health benefits compared with levothyroxine

monotherapy and was significantly more expensive.

NICE could not recommend liothyronine either alone or in combination treatment, based on the evidence available and its current list price, but agreed a research recommendation to help inform future guidance in this important area. This is why neither your GP or, as you have indicated, Dr.............., will be able to continue with your current medication past the trial end date. The oversight and governance around clinical trials mean that they can prescribe medications outside of those ‘usually available’.

You want to be able to have the T3/T4 combination prescribed following the end of the

trial so you can continue the improvement you have already had.

I can appreciate that you want to continue your current treatment regimen and recognise that not doing so will impact on the management of your symptoms but, based on the NAPC policy, NHS England guidance and NICE guidance, I am regretfully unable to agree to your request as to do so would fall outside of the policy and would not be equitable to other patients’ in the same position as you.

You note that the guidance says that GPs can continue to prescribe T3 under the

direction of an NHS endocrinologist but that this does not appear to be the case in

N.....................

I can confirm that the NAPC position statement advises that ‘the NHS will only support continued prescribing in exceptional circumstances and only under recommendation from an NHS endocrinologist after a multidisciplinary discussion involving fellow consultants’. You may wish to consider referral to an endocrinologist in N............. who can review your history and obtain information from Dr …............ in C............ to inform your future treatment and care options.

Where the CCG do not commission a treatment or service, patients can ask an NHS Consultant to complete an Individual Funding Request (IFR). Each IFR is reviewed by our IFR team and there are strict eligibility criteria with patients needing to demonstrate exceptionality and/or individuality. You may wish to discuss this further with Dr…...............as the decision regarding completion of an IFR will be his to make.

I appreciate that my response will be disappointing to you as I am unable to agree to your request to continue prescribing T3 for you at the end of the trial and I wish you well with your future treatment.

I hope I have been able to respond to all the aspects of your complaint; however, if you feel that the response does not fully address the points you have raised, please get in touch with us on......... or email …..........................

If you feel that we have addressed your concerns but are not satisfied with our final response to your complaint, we would like to take the matter further. In that case, you can contact the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman (PHSO). The PHSO makes final decisions on complaints that have not been resolved by the NHS, government departments and some other public organisations. The service is free for everyone.

To make your complaint to the PHSO, go to ombudsman.org.uk/making-com... or call 0345 015 4033. It would help if you made your complaint to the PHSO as soon as you receive our final response as there are time limits for the PHSO to look into complaints.

Suppose you need any help or advice to make your complaint to the PHSO. In that case, you can obtain independent advocacy support from POhWER, and I am sending you a copy of their leaflet for your information.

I would also be grateful if you could complete this questionnaire about your experience of making a complaint with us surveymonkey.co.uk/rZY8H697

We will use this feedback to reflect on improving our complaints service.

Yours sincerely

Accountable Officer

Nottingham and Nottinghamshire Clinical Commissioning Group

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Flecmac profile image
Flecmac
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38 Replies
SarahJane1471 profile image
SarahJane1471

Wow 😮 that really is appalling. I’m sorry you are in this position. Do you feel you have the ability to take this further and appeal?

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SarahJane1471

Thanks. I am exhausted just getting this far but yes with some help I think I could. Just wondered if anyone could give me some guidance. My complaint was very strong.

SarahJane1471 profile image
SarahJane1471 in reply to Flecmac

I’ve not been in your position but I hope someone will come along and advise you. It just seems staggering that they accept your health is better and then say they will take away your well-being!!!!!I am angry 😡 for you……… how is this possible! I really hope you can fight this and get support x

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SarahJane1471

I know! Ridiculous! Thank you so much for your reply 😊

tattybogle profile image
tattybogle

Flecmac , i have linked your post to this one , .... healthunlocked.com/thyroidu... you may wish to contact TaraJR in case she has any suggestions.

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to tattybogle

Thank you! 😊

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator

310 prescriptions in Nottingham CCG in last year

openprescribing.net/analyse...

Have you had Dio2 gene test done

Testing positive for Dio2 can help get funding

thyroiduk.org/deiodinase-2-...

Similarly are you

Lactose intolerant or gluten intolerant…..both indicate likely to benefit from T3

Who’s your MP

Get them onboard

theyworkforyou.com/search/?...

If your NHS endocrinologist says you have clinical need…..that’s all that’s required

The endocrinologist has to make an individual funding request on your behalf

Ms...........advises that the N................... Area Prescribing Committee (NAPC) policy is ‘that T3 (liothyronine) treatment for hypothyroidism (either alone or in combination with T4 [levothyroxine]) is no longer available through the NHS. The policy does not apply to patients treated privately.’

This is absolutely incorrect

Suggest you include this information that there were over 58,000 prescriptions for T3 in England in last year

openprescribing.net/analyse...

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SlowDragon

Thank you.I haven’t had the Dio2 gene test as if negative I would definitely not get T3 on NHS. I saw the graph about how many prescriptions given in Notts but didn’t know how to explain this to them. They always follow with a question, that’s why it takes so long to get a response.

I have been gluten free for over 4 years but didn’t notice much if any difference in symptoms. I tried dairy free but it was extremely hard and no difference. My MP is Tom Randall. I haven’t written to him, I don’t know how to explain all the problems etc as it’s a very complex medical issue. I tried drafting a letter going over and over without success. I had the same difficulty with CCG letter which took months.

My Endocrinologist hasn’t actually said or written that I have a clinical need but I said that I gad been on T3 fir over a year so therefore there must be a clinical need, but they wanted written evidence which he won’t give because of workload and I suspect possible reprimand. I doubt he will provide an individual funding request on my behalf for the same reasons and I don’t see/ speak with him until end of July.

You say the comment about the NAPC guidance is incorrect, could you give any evidence of this please? I will include the info about prescriptions in England, however I doubt they would take it as evidence.

Many thanks 😊

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to Flecmac

Guidelines are quite clear, that if a patient has clinical need, as assessed by NHS endocrinologist (or NHS psychiatrist) then they can/should be prescribed

The key word is ……”liothyronine is not routinely prescribed “

But it’s probably down to your endocrinologist to do individual funding request. Tara may know more about that

I see TaraJR has replied with links for letter templates

Statistically a conservative MP unlikely to be much help …..but still worth writing. See if there’s a letter template from ITT you can use.

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SlowDragon

I have looked at the nhs info for individual funding requestengland.nhs.uk/wp-content/u...

Unfortunately my Endo has said he cannot write a letter to CCG to support me because of workload etc, so he won’t be prepared to do an IFR I’m afraid. He has been very good over the past 4 years and has prescribed T3 for over a year which is way beyond the trial period, so I don’t want to rock the boat. Nottingham Endocrinologist wouldn’t even keep me on 50mcg Levo! So I have to travel from Nottingham to Coventry for help.

Thanks 😊

marigold22 profile image
marigold22 in reply to Flecmac

Re. the DIO2 gene test. You do it privately, On the initial request you don't write any doctor's name so that the results come straight back to you. If it's negative, you don't need to tell anyone that you have done it. regeneruslabs.com/collectio...

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to marigold22

Yes, thanks I did look into it. I’m not quite convinced it would help me to get T3 on NHS, big outlay too.

marigold22 profile image
marigold22 in reply to Flecmac

I do understand about the cost. I got T3 promised a few years back based on my positive DIO2 result. It looks like it currently costs £88

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to Flecmac

It certainly helped get my T3 prescribed on NHS

Tested positive for heterozygous DIO2

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SlowDragon

Did you suspect you were positive?

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to Flecmac

Well I definitely wasn’t surprised….full details on my profile

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SlowDragon

So you suspected it? As far as I know it would be unlikely that I have inherited the gene.Thank you 😊

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to Flecmac

Why ?

There was no history of any autoimmune disease in my family

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SlowDragon

I thought I read in your profile that the gene was inherited from one of your parents. Isn’t that why you were not surprised? Sorry if I’m not understanding.

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to Flecmac

Yes …but it’s a common gene (in over 40% of population)

It’s only an issue once we are prescribed levothyroxine mono therapy

thyroiduk.org/deiodinase-2-...

Firstly, you need to know that everyone inherits two copies of each gene, one from their mother and one from their father.

To explain this paper briefly, the Deiodinase 2 gene activates triiodothyronine (T3) and the researchers found that a tiny change in this gene could mean that although the body gets enough T3, the brain doesn’t.

The patients on this study were given levothyroxine (T4) only for a set period and then combination treatment of both levothyroxine and liothyronine (synthetic T3). The patients who had normal genes did not feel any different on T4/T3 combination treatment. However, those who had one variant gene (inherited from one of their parents) felt better on the combination treatment and those with two variant genes (inherited from both parents) felt better still.

This means that there is a possibility that patients who are on levothyroxine alone, still have symptoms and have the variant Deiodinase 2 gene may improve with the addition of liothyronine .

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SlowDragon

Thank you.

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to SlowDragon

Thank you. I’m not sure how I could suspect that I may have this faulty gene, as you did. I have been taking 10mcg Liothyronine for over a year in combination with 62 mcg Levothyroxine (any more Liothyronine takes my T3 over range) this was only supposed to be a trial. I feel a little better but not as much as I would have expected and nowhere near as much as people on here say. It says online that a positive test would help people to get T3. If I have been taking it and haven’t had the best result on Liothyronine then wouldn’t it be less likely to have a positive test? Also if I don’t want my Dr to have the results is there an extra payment for using one at Regenerist? Thanks 😊

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to Flecmac

The results don’t go to the Doctor, they come to you

Up to you if you want to share results with your endocrinologist

Obviously if it’s positive result you would

If negative, you wouldn’t

Andie222 profile image
Andie222 in reply to SlowDragon

Hello SlowDragon and Flecmac. My results were sent to my GP. I rang reception and asked them to forward them to me. I have no idea whether the GP actually saw them or for that matter whether they would have understood it anyway. I had to do some research to figure out what it meant, as it is not written in plain English. I found helpful information online to do this.

You are right that you have to pay extra if you want the result sent directly to you.

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to Andie222

Sorry, what I meant regarding paying extra was that there is an option to pay for one of their doctors to decifer the results and relay them to me. Thank you for sharing your experience with me. 😊

TaraJR profile image
TaraJR

Flecmac the CCG's response is full of 'inaccuracies' (I'm trying to remain polite). It's made me quite angry and upset.

Eg NICE says it does not recommend ROUTINELY prescribing T3. That does NOT mean DO NOT prescribe. NICE references the RMOC T3 prescribing guidance. The understanding is that, if NICE references something, they recommend it. And yes you're right, RMOC says a GP can take over T3 prescribing, after a successful trial from an endo.

Are you on Facebook? I help to run ITT Improve Thyroid Treatment, a national thyroid group. And also TSGN Thyroid Support Group Norfolk, and in Norfolk we won a 3 year campaign to get T3 back. It can be done! When we started in Norfolk there was no national guidance for T3, but there are several pieces now, plus national statements made by DHSC/ NHSE.

We have various documents/template letters in the ITT FB files, which detail national guidance. If you can join us?

ITT and TSGN work alongside other major groups eg Thyroid UK, The Thyroid Trust, British Thyroid Foundation, Thyroid Patient Advocacy. We've made major strides (believe it or not!) on pushing for improved national guidance, and the T3 scandal has got to the Commons and Lords several times - it really is making a difference. Sadly, it takes a ridiculously long time.

Hope you can join us!

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to TaraJR

Thank you. I am a member of ITT and used the template as a guide for my complaint. Could you elaborate on all the inaccuracies. I know the basics, why’s and wherefores but find it extremely difficult explaining all of the complexities in a convincing way. They have kept on coming back with question after question which is what their response is based on. The CCG just won’t accept a different view of what NICE guidelines actually say. What is DHSE and NHSE?

Sadly Nottingham is a million miles away regarding thyroid disease and GP’s remain blindfolded. I have been battling since 2006/7.

Many thanks 😊

TaraJR profile image
TaraJR in reply to Flecmac

(Department of Health & Social Care / NHS England)

Glad to hear you're an ITT member! Possibly our template needs updating now. I'll private message on here later, if that's ok?

Mainly, to follow NICE properly the CCG should be using the RMOC guidance. But NICE carefully hid it so it's hard to find! We're requesting that NICE amend their guidance to make RMOC obvious.

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to TaraJR

Yes please 😊

SlowDragon profile image
SlowDragonAdministrator in reply to Flecmac

sps.nhs.uk/articles/updated...

sps.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploa...

JAmanda profile image
JAmanda

😮 Glad they provided info on how to complain.

Lesleynotts profile image
Lesleynotts

Seems like the Nottingham Endocrinologists continue with their anti T3 stance. Also that NAPC position statement has been the same for years, an amendment of it is long overdue.In one instance it should not state that it has endorsement from the British Thyroid Foundation. The whole set up in Nottingham re this needs to be challenged but it is complicated and demanding on time. I'll keep a lookout for how you are going on as I live in the outskirts of the city.

heathermr profile image
heathermr

I managed to get T3 from an Endo in Queens Med , it was a long fight 10 plus years ago but I used the quote from Dr Skinners trial where Prof Wass stated that if a patient refused to take T4 and needed treatment for hypothyroidism, then he would have to prescribe T3. You do have the right to choose which medication you take. I am still on just T3 on the NHS, in fact I have ACE Cytomel prescribed which was cheaper than British T3. It's still a fight to get it and they keep trying to say no, but the longer I am taking it, the less the chance that they have to turn round and say no. Good luck.Heather

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to heathermr

Very lucky! 10 years ago must have been different. Could you pm me the Endocrinologist who prescribed it please. I know for sure it won’t be who I saw!

meme profile image
meme

Wow! Long brush off!

Can you get your MP involved?

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to meme

As SlowDragon said above........Statistically a conservative MP unlikely to be much help....

meme profile image
meme in reply to Flecmac

Ours is conservative and she is very helpful. They have to help their constituents. I live next to Notts.

Flecmac profile image
Flecmac in reply to meme

Maybe women are more understanding especially concerning women’s health. I will try though. Thanks 😊

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