I need help. Already for couple of months I am trying to fine tune cytomel and Adrenovive (adrenal supplements). I took them together for 3 years and it was not ideal but not super bad like right now.
Right now I see it as my goal to withdraw from adrenal supplements completely because when I slowly lower the dosage, some extreme symptoms start to go away or get less (abdominal pain, nausea, throwing up, adrenal pain). What still stays is for example adrenal pain, heart palpitations at night after 4am and after taking supplements is worse.
I started taking the supplements soon after 6 months of taking cytomel and when my saliva cortisol test showed hypocortisolism. It helped me a lot that time. Now my concern is if I stop them I might lack cortisol, and maybe will not tolerate cytomel dosage at the amount my body needs.
As a solution to try I consider CT3M by Paul Robinson. His method is based on splitting t3 in to smaller dosages but taking them 3-4 times a day and taking the first dosage during earlier hours in the morning, which will promote adrenal work.
Currently, I take cytomel - 10mcg 2 times a day. At 7.00 and 16.00.
I want to try taking it
7,5mcg at 7.00,
7,5mcg at 11.00,
5mcg at 16.00.
But how to come to these changes gradually? I can't make these changes over day or can I? Should I split the 2nd dose and shift it from 4pm to 3pm and after couple of days shift an hour earlier again?
If someone here who tried to change his regime in this way can kindly recommend?
Any advice on withdrawing from adrenal support also is highly welcomed. Thank you in advance.
My thyroid tests are coming soon, I will update. Thank you all for your attention.
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Viv123
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I would just change to your new regime. It is just the equivalent of adding an increase of 5mcg over 3 doses instead of 2. Please be aware the Paul Robinson states that the CT3M method must only be undertaken if you have low cortisol.
I have added my morning cortisol test. It was done when I already started reducing adrenal supplement. It is high. And I am hypothyroid as never before. I wonder if and when I should make a cortisol saliva test.
Splitting your T3 dose to more frequently will be kinder to the adrenals as will drip feed a lower steady dose instead of higher dose that risks peaks and troughs. Just do it.
I supplemented T3 threes times a day in the early days as adrenals wouldn’t stand any further increase in metabolism. But adrenals are immensely robust if nursed back with the right supports, ie optimal thyroid hormones, iron & nutrients, adequate balanced cortisol, healthy life style, addressing any gut issues. I still supplement large amounts of Vit C and curcumin.
Google advises Adrenovive compromises of plant/herb adaptogens, Vitamin B’s, C and zinc. Stop whenever you wish to. It’s long term steroid replacement that risks reducing the adrenals ability to function correctly, and should be weaned off slowly under professional guidance. Not all adaptogens suit everyone and should be chosen depending on cortisol behaviours.
Diet is massive as cortisol issues can cause gluconeogenesis (the production of sugar from non-carb sources), and increase blood sugar levels that encourage eating starchy, processed carbs and sugar, which further exacerbate blood sugar levels.
If you wake constantly between 2-4 am this could be caused by the liver lacking glycogen reserves that are required for conversion by the adrenals to keep blood glucose levels high throughout the night. Snacking on a gluten free whole grain cracker/bread & peanut butter before bed (or during the night) will help.
Also I craved salt because of suboptimal sodium retention//hydration due to low aldosterone levels (responsible for regulating sodium//potassium absorption). Now I have salt in water regularly throughout the day or failing that just eat a bag of crisps 😁.
Radd,This adrenovive I take is of Natural Health Choice brand. The manufacturer said it's made of bovine gland. It's not plant-based. I am quite sure there are some hormones in it. After taking them now I start to feel extremely sick and I can see in the blood test above cortisol is pretty high. I made it before taking my morning dosage. I wonder if cortisol is high it will suppress my T3 in blood and therefore my TSH will be so high?
Ahhh, you mean the glandular AdrenAvive. Different products but similar spelling Viv123.
Glandulars can be powerful. I didn't get on with them and have tried many sorts but some members have found them extremely useful and Dr P was a huge advocate. If you are having negative reactions, just stop taking them. It is not a good idea to 'start, stop, start, stop' glandulars because they can be so influential but if they are exacerbating symptoms you do not need to reduce slowly. If you are taking the 'whole' as opposed to the cortex it may be too much adrenaline that's making your heart palps worse.
Elevated cortisol can alter HPA axis behaviour and effect thyroid hormone conversion but your cortisol result above is only a snap shot, not telling of your circadian patterns and cortisol is not even over range. You said your saliva results indicated insufficent levels.
Your symptoms could be due to your insufficient thyroid hormone levels and over range TSH. Also, are your ferritin levels good because palps can be felt with inadequate iron when medicating thyroid hormone replacement, especially T3?
If you wanted to help adrenals there might be be other supports better suited such as adaptogens that encourage balance, raising or lowering cortisol levels.
But you also need to increase your thyroid hormone levels. I know you are wanting to follow the CT3M but if your body is intolerant of any more T3, can you add some T4/ NDT?
Radd. Thank you so much for your Great post. You really explained it so very well in detail. What I found in my journey after my TT and finally was allowed after many years to add NDT/T3 to my T4 very helpful was Iron and Celtic Sea Salt with vitamin C and B-complex very helpful. Splitting my low dose T3 5mcg 2-3 times a day was very helpful too.Kudos for your post.
Radd your very knowledgeable with our thyroid journeys. Do you have your thyroids? Are you dosing g with T3 and T4 ? Many on the thyroid journey who are on this journey for many years are not informed well . Dr's would rather keep us uninformed and ignorant. I feel very Blessed to have our very knowledgeable members on this forum that avail themselves of their valued time and knowledge 🙏 . May you all be Blessed for your care and passion to help others in need.
Yes, like everyone else I have my own story, which probably started during childhood. I would never have found wellbeing without this forum. Click on my name to read a brief résumé.
My heroine was a kind, helpful and immensely knowledgable admin called Clutter. She guided and helped both my mental & physical health. Her posts are still available to read if you look for her under the member's tab. I won't be there though as was under a different name then.
Yes, I was shocked to receive such a result. In February I was not on 20mcg but on 25 mcg. And I couldn't understand why I feel so bad so started to lower the dosage of both.
Now I can't just add 10 mcg sudden, I tolerate only small changes of 2,5-5 mcg. So if I keep 1st dose to 10 mcg, add 2nd dose at 11.00 - 7,5mcg, and 7,5mcg at 16.00, I will add just 5mcg to the daily dose right? And after two weeks add more to the 2 and 3.
Higher T3 might suppress my high now cortisol right?
I don't know anything about cortisol I'm afraid. What I do know is that for me adding 'bits' of T3 like 2.5 or 5 just gave me ear neck head aches but when I just went all in and took 20 one morning it was miraculous! I've since got better at spreading them across the day in 2 or 3 doses but I loved taking a big amount in one go. I understand others do and feel the same - something about flooding your receptors. But hey I'm no expert.
Dear Viv, I'm sorry to hear you're suffering. Most of us have been there which drove us to Liothyronine in the first place! Have you never used T4? It sure works for many people & is far easier!
I'm doing CT3M (20 mcg @ 0300). It's a royal pain but my temps & vitals are high enough for thyroid & stable enough for cortisol. (Took three years to get here!) I have never taken adrenals (I'm a lifelong vegetarian) & taking Hydrocortisone 4x/day seemed just too much to handle in my already fragile state.
During daytime, I take three equal doses of 12.5 mcg. Not very many can feel supported on twice a day doses. All my doses, including CT3M are six hours apart, total 57.5 mcg/day. Some sufferers prefer to keep daily totals the same but adjust the doses by symptoms.
T3 only lasts for 4-6 hours so the short answer is, yes, you can switch this next day with no complications. What you suggest is an extremely tiny dose! Most of us are at 55 mcg & above. Read all three of Paul Robinson's books for guidance. T3 tells you quickly what you can tolerate! If you're super-sensitive, add in smaller doses & increase slowly.
Your last T3 dose should be at precisely lights out. I found a regular, early bedtime was a big help. 930pm--I'm not much fun anymore!
Cortisol saliva testing will give you great indications of adrenal status. Note you must be off all adrenals for at least two weeks before testing.
I suggest you get in touch with the RT3-Adrenals group & get on their email list. Their moderator, Ann, is compassionate, experienced & all-around awesome. Bear in mind they are naysayers about CT3M & rely on daily average temps alone but I'm proof, as are many others, that CT3M can work.
RT3's webpage has lots of useful info but the groups at .io are where you should start. You may drop my name, if you like.
As other replies have noted, your TSH is way high. You also need to consider all four iron markers, plus sodium & potassium. And remember, Zinc suppresses cortisol so use small doses only with caution.
I have tried T4 in the past before switched to T3. Apparently I am poorly converting to T3, so any amounts of T4 including in NDT wasn’t my cup of tea.
Thank you for explaining how you take your t3. I will try slowly adjust. Currently I already added an early afternoon dosage. Now it’s 10 mcg at 7.00, 7,5 at 11.00, 7,5 at 16.00. Evenings after 20.00 are somehow very hard... but I am having withdrawal symptoms after lowering adrenal glandulars too fast. That can explain severe nausea and dizziness. Soon it will improve I can feel.
At what times are you taking your dosages?
After I am off adrenals I will test iron and other markers, and saliva cortisol after 2 weeks. Thank you for your message)
Hi unblocktheplane. Do you take your T3 away from food and supplements? I've recently started taking T3 and find it difficult to take so many doses away from food, and especially away from supplements that must also be taken away from food. It feels like too much to juggle.
Hi Canu, Happy to report that T3 (& I think T4, too) is entirely unaffected by food. Lotsa doses, eh! Makes me miss how easy it was with T4...until it wasn't. Good health to you! CJ
Can't advise too strongly to ask your ongoing questions on RT3-Adrenals & read all Paul Robinson's books. There is a ton of misinformation & downright craziness out there!
Predicated on my 930pm lights out, I take 20mcg @ 0300, and 12.5 @ 0900, 1500, & 2130.
I live in Thailand so have not been able to access cortisol saliva testing but Daily Average Temps are stable, plus no hyperthyroid BPs & HRs so I think I'm doing okay.
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