I’d be interested to see what Diogenes thinks about this from an evidence based scientific point of view, or if anyone else has any comments. Still grasping at straws because mostly feel awful on T4 and T3.
T2 : I’d be interested to see what Diogenes... - Thyroid UK
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AliF
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Thanks for posting. I respect Dr. Christianson. I take NDT. I believe whole forms & natural forms of anything is preferable to synthesized.
Ok, your reply appeared after I had just seen the video.
When I was first diagnosed I went mad, learning about T3, T4, Levo, Synthroid etc etc. I gave up after having no positive results from my GP, or even the results of my blood tests. I decided to forget it because I couodn't change it apparently. Now having just seen the video about T2, a blast from that past, which I had completely forgotten about popped Dessicated Natural Thyroid
I suddenly remembered that I had wondered - around a 1/4 of a century ago ! - whether that was something that I might be able to try.
Now I am sorry, I have forgotten all about it, but -;
What is DNT please?
I assume that it isn't available in the uk?
Is it likely that people might or do, react better to that, rather than the chemically arrived at thyroxine that we can get here?
I suddenly remembered feeling very drawn to DNT years ago as soon as he said the words in the video!
Like remembering a past life, ot having an out of body experience, or even a deja vous epileptic fit - a feeling of having heard this/been there before! LoL
No, I haven't had a fit, I promise, thank God
DNT, do you mean NDT? NDT is natural desiccated thyroid.
I havevgot deja vous again now!! I was calling it Dessicated Natural Thyroid in my head!!! OMG, what fun!
Yes, sorry, NDT, 
Deja vous is a powerful thing
OMG yes, is it ever! But not when it is an epileptic one! I haven't hsd one for some years, but afterwards, they just leave me absolutely done in. Lowthyroid has nothing on the after effects of a fit, believe me.
helvellaAdministratorThyroid UK
In that link, he says:
Well, to start, the T here stands for “thyroglobulin.” It’s a protein which is a modification of what we know as tyrosine.
Unfortunately, that is a huge mistake. The fundamental molecule upon which iodine hangs is thyronine. Whereas thyroglobulin is a protein within the thyroid.
More or less, two molecules of tyrosine are processed by the thyroid to a) add iodine atoms (forming monoiodotyrosine (MIT) and diiodotyrosine (DIT) ); b) join them together. Two DITs make T4. One DIT and one MIT make T3.
He also claims:
How Much T2 is in NDT?
While we do not have a lot of data into how much T2 exactly is in NDT, but because it is standardized to both:
Total Iodine
T4
T3
We would then expect the amounts of T2 in NDT to be rather consistent.
I have already mentioned MIT and DIT. These both contain iodine and are present, indeed, they are formed, within the thyroid. Unless you take away the iodine content of MIT and DIT, you have no idea that the remaining iodine in thyroid is in the form of T2. If you don't know that, you are making an assumption.
(There will also be iodine in non-organic forms. That is how iodine arrives in the thyroid.)
Indeed, with a bit of searching, I have found even more iodine-containing substances:
2-iodohistidine，MIH
2,4-diiodohistidine，DIH
MIT
DIT
T3
rT3
T4
Solid-phase extraction for the reversed-phase high-performance liquid chromatographic determination of iodoamino acids
jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bu...
15/01/2020 22:02 - Added:
Although the article does emphasise the consistency of T2 content, that is not very helpful if the actual amount is not known. An extreme example, it could consistently be zero! (I do believe that there will actually be a low level of T2. But I have no idea if that has any significance. Nor do I know whether any T2 that is present at the time the thyroid gland is collected remains through processing and can then be absorbed by someone swallowing their desiccated thyroid tablet.)
Yes, it was hard to read the rest of the paper after reading that in the first line. I kept thinking, "This could be very interesting and new information - or it's a load of rubbish".
But thanks for the analysis.
Thanks Helvella. It would take me a while to read the paper, not least because when I click on the link a lot of it is in Chinese! But thanks for your explanation. I spotted that basic mistake right at the start too about “ thyroglobulin” It may just have been a slip of the tongue, but it doesn’t do a lot for his credibility.
Yes - the Chinese is impenetrable to me!
Trouble is, I am very open to the possibility of other thyroid hormones (obviously the prime example being T2) having significant impacts. But when someone makes big mistakes, early on, it undermines the rest.
PubMed has 624 references to diiodothyronine - some of which are very recent and asking lots of questions:
Thanks for that explanation, though I really think it has flown right over my head.
So, is NDT used to treat Low thyroid in the states, or anywhere else? I am not thinking about the T2, I have enough to think about wondering if ever I can get myself sorted out thyroidwise.
Yes, desiccated thyroid is used in the USA, even sometimes in the UK. However, most of the establishment doctors around the entire world do not, and would not, prescribe desiccated thyroid.
(In France, it is even illegal.)
A combination of lack of understanding (and experience) and many untruths make it a brave doctor who will prescribe.
Sorry to be a pain, but have I got this right please?
NDT IS available in uk?
It is usually more important for someone who has no thyroid gland ie they have had it removed?
And what exactly is Natural Dessicated Thyroiglobulin (spelling? I am getting old!) 'Natural' implies that it isn't fabricated, so I don't quite understand where it comes from.
NDT can be available in the UK - a few pharmacies deal with it and, if you managed to get a prescription, would likely be able to supply.
The issues about who is most likely to benefit from NDT are complex and I don't feel a short answer would help much.
NDT is Natural Desiccated Thyroid.
It consists of the thyroid glands of animals, cleaned, connective tissue removed and defatted. That is then thoroughly dried and powdered.
In order to ensure it is consistent, it is assayed and blended and a diluent is added (e.g. sugar or lactose). And other ingredients necessary to make tablets are added.
We usually reserve the term NDT for products which declare their thyroid hormone content. So far as I know, they are all derived from pigs.
There are some other products which do not declare their thyroid hormone content. Some of these are derived from cattle. (Bovine thyroid would be expected to have more T4 as a proportion.)
The word natural in NDT could be misleading. I try to avoid it and usually just refer to "desiccated thyroid". Others will disagree with me.
Well, that makes sense to me helvella. I just couldn't get my brain around it and hearing it mentioned in that video got me thinking and wondering about it again.
Thanks for taking the trouble, I know I am a demanding little, 'not so little' so and so
If your body does not need T2 (or any other hormone within NDT other than T3 and T4) then why exactly does it exist?
If you can offer no valid explanation as to why the body does NOT need it, then it must be regarded as a necessity to retain proper health.
You need very few active brain cells to realise it is unwise or even dangerous to deprive the body of ANY hormone, irrespective of anybody else's informed opinion.
But there are millions of people, some with no thyroid at all, who do very well on just T4. Or so it seems.
Yes, those are the people who are good converters - T4 dropping to T3, T3 dropping to T2, T2 dropping to T1 and I read once there is a T0. In each case the "dropping" is the loss of an iodine atom from the thyroxine molecule. So, if you have all of the vitamins, minerals and catalysts necessary for these reactions in your body (one way or another) then you can survive on Levo only after a total thyroidectomy. I had the latter but couldn't do the former., hence I am on NDT and doing just fine. Full disclosure, I might have been able to get by on Levo alone but I was not "allowed" to increase my Levo level high enough to generate T3 because it made my TSH very low. Perhaps the TT-people who are OK on Levo alone have doctors who are ignorant about the mythical problems they are usually supposed to look out for (suppressed TSH) - sorry just a silly thought.
Shouldn’t endocrinologists be a) Reading more of the research that already exists and b) doing a lot more research into all of this given the number of people with Hypothyroidism and the rapid increase in Hashimoto’s cases. Not to mention the number of people who don’t feel well on T4 and those of us who still don’t feel well on T4 and T3 despite blood test results that are “ within range”. No need to answer. It’s a rhetorical question.
Well, you got me thinking. Yes, doctors should read up on the existing research but they will say they are too busy taking care of the many, many everyday problems, which is probably true. But, you know, when you are interested in something you will always find time to study it. Why then are so few medics put off by endocrinology (with the exception of diabetes). I think the answer is just like any other discipline, when you get too many variables all sloshing around and not only that but interacting with each other, it is no longer fun. And so, I believe, this is why thyroid endocrinology is the orphan of the medical world. It's just too hard and there are not enough successes (ie patients feeling well) for all of the hard work the doc puts in. The doc gets discouraged. And so that's why they don't spend their weekends off reading thyroid research papers. Maybe one or two who have had loved ones succumb to a thyroid illness get into it, but in general they steer clear of the thyroid. I don't know for sure, I do not have a medical type of mind, I will ask my doc next time I see him.
What we tricky hypothyroid patients need, is for an annual thyroid medical conference to be organised, perhaps by by an NDT producing drug company ( definitely NOT by a levothyroxine producing one) in some exotic, far flung location, where researchers like Diogenes can present their latest findings. Then the Dr’s would be interested!
The article doesn't say how you can be tested for T2. Also, I noticed on the information about FT3 that he says unless the results are outside of the reference range either side, there's no need to worry. I thought low in-range results were problematic? Not that the medical practitioners I've ever come across are particularly perturbed and claim that FT3 testing is irrelevant.
Let us look at this step by step:
IF
A significant proportion of T2 is formed by deiodination of T3 (and rT3).
AND
That deioidination to T2 happens within cells.
AND
Some of that T2, and I mean an amount that is more than a tiny proportion, has its effect within the same cells.
THEN
T2 content of the bloodstream could be almost irrelevant.
Happy to accept that if more T2 is formed, then bloodstream T2 might rise a bit. And, if little T2 is being formed, bloodstream T2 might go down a bit. But would those changes truly reflect the T2 status within cells?
Yes, good point. Oh, and for those who are interested, the T3 to T2 reaction is another one that needs Selenium as a catalyst. We always miss that one out when we are listing the (equally important) Vit D, Folate, Ferritin, B12 etc. levels.
So, should we be testing for selenium as well?
Absolutely. If you have no selenium (or very little) none of the conversions will work and you will feel ill. Also, before you try to increase any mineral or vitamin check your baseline first, you do not want to overload on any of them (including selenium). Then, if you find you are deficient and you decide to supplement, measure your levels after about a month to check that you didn't overshot some reasonable maximum.
Well, once I get my results I will arrange to get signed in to the local surgery as a temporary patient - they already give me my repeat meds from there every month - and will take my ever growing list of what I need to have tested and see what they will actually test me for, then I can arrange to get other things tested privately.
I hope this is all going to be worth it.
I have felt really positive before because I thought that things were going to be sorted out, but it never did get sorted. I am scared that the same will happen again and I don't know how I would react to another let down.
Still, chin up Sandra, get going, stop moaning!
Don't give up. It is a long journey with a few set backs - like any endeavor in life. Many of us here have struggled through the difficulties and anything else a problem thyroid throws at us. It is just such a pity that the medical profession cannot help us very much. You get a burning question that would take you to the next level if you could only get an answer, but nobody knows what you are talking about. That's why it is so very experimental - and it's not a good idea to experiment on yourself the medical profession says quite wisely. But what else are we supposed to do, just stay ill.
Not sure what I take from this. Going to try and summarise. T2 has a function. We shouldn’t need to specifically take it though as NDT because it can be made by deiodination of T3 ( which in turn can come from T4 (although I take both)). But for those processes to take place efficiently we need selenium which acts as a catalyst, and lots of other vitamins and minerals as well.
There is very little information about taking T2 which makes any understanding difficult.
But, overall, I think you are in the right direction.
helvellaAdministratorThyroid UK
A newly published paper on T2 which might be of interest:
Front Endocrinol (Lausanne). 2019; 10: 787.
Published online 2020 Jan 8. doi: 10.3389/fendo.2019.00787
PMCID: PMC6960127
3,5-T2—A Janus-Faced Thyroid Hormone Metabolite Exerts Both Canonical T3-Mimetic Endocrine and Intracrine Hepatic Action
Josef Köhrle,1,* Ina Lehmphul,1 Maik Pietzner,2,3 Kostja Renko,1 Eddy Rijntjes,1 Keith Richards,1 João Anselmo,4 Mark Danielsen,5 and Jacqueline Jonklaas5
Abstract
Over the last decades, thyroid hormone metabolites (THMs) received marked attention as it has been demonstrated that they are bioactive compounds. Their concentrations were determined by immunoassay or mass-spectrometry methods. Among those metabolites, 3,5-diiodothyronine (3,5-T2), occurs at low nanomolar concentrations in human serum, but might reach tissue concentrations similar to those of T4 and T3, at least based on data from rodent models. However, the immunoassay-based measurements in human sera revealed remarkable variations depending on antibodies used in the assays and thus need to be interpreted with caution. In clinical experimental approaches in euthyroid volunteers and hypothyroid patients using the immunoassay as the analytical tool no evidence of formation of 3,5-T2 from its putative precursors T4 or T3 was found, nor was any support found for the assumption that 3,5-T2 might represent a direct precursor for serum 3-T1-AM generated by combined deiodination and decarboxylation from 3,5-T2, as previously documented for mouse intestinal mucosa. We hypothesized that lowered endogenous production of 3,5-T2 in patients requiring T4 replacement therapy after thyroidectomy or for treatment of autoimmune thyroid disease, compared to production of 3,5-T2 in individuals with intact thyroid glands might contribute to the discontent seen in a subset of patients with this therapeutic regimen. So far, our observations do not support this assumption. However, the unexpected association between high serum 3,5-T2 and elevated urinary concentrations of metabolites related to coffee consumption requires further studies for an explanation. Elevated 3,5-T2 serum concentrations were found in several situations including impaired renal function, chronic dialysis, sepsis, non-survival in the ICU as well as post-operative atrial fibrillation (POAF) in studies using a monoclonal antibody-based chemoluminescence immunoassay. Pilot analysis of human sera using LC-linear-ion-trap-mass-spectrometry yielded 3,5-T2 concentrations below the limit of quantification in the majority of cases, thus the divergent results of both methods need to be reconciliated by further studies. Although positive anti-steatotic effects have been observed in rodent models, use of 3,5-T2 as a muscle anabolic, slimming or fitness drug, easily obtained without medical prescription, must be advised against, considering its potency in suppressing the HPT axis and causing adverse cardiac side effects. 3,5-T2 escapes regular detection by commercially available clinical routine assays used for thyroid function tests, which may be seriously disrupted in individuals self-administering 3,5-T2 obtained over-the counter or from other sources.
Keywords: thyroid hormone, 3,5-diiodothyronine, hypothyroidism, metabolome, anti-steatotic action, coffee metabolites, chemoluminescence immunoassay, deiodinase
Full paper freely available:
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