A thyroid hormone controls insulin production - Thyroid UK

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A thyroid hormone controls insulin production

diogenes
diogenes

A thyroid hormone different from T4 and T3 acts as a control of insulin production by affecting the energy producing factories (mitochondria). Like T4 , the hormone is a prhormone that has to be converted into the active form. A bit biochemical but I thought people might like to see a new example of what thyroid hormones can control. The paper is downloadable for those interested.

Commentary: 3-Iodothyronamine Reduces Insulin Secretion In Vitro via a Mitochondrial Mechanism

Annunziatina Laurino and Laura Raimondi

General Commentary

Published on 28 February 2018

Front. Endocrinol. doi:

doi.org/10.3389/fendo.2018....

27 Replies
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Hidden
Hidden

Thank you Diagenes this is of interest to me as it is quite clear I over produce insulin at times. I Presume this might indicate that NDT is a better medication for those with insulin issues. I am not academic but surmising.

I wanted to ask you something as well if you dont mind.I thought you might know. What is a normal T4to T3 ratio. MY child has a high t3 and low T4. I am trying to get him tested for thyroid resistance genetic condition which has a reversal of T4 to T3. I am not sure if it is normlato have high T4 and Low 3or what it should be in a fit healthy person.

diogenes
diogenes in reply to Hidden

A common ratio is FT4/FT3 around 3/1 or 4/1.

SilverAvocado
SilverAvocado in reply to Hidden

Mandyjane, Diogenes has mentioned in the past that as the thyroid is struggling to produce enough T4, the body will up regulate conversion of T4 to T3 to try and compensate. I think this can result in a higher freeT3 than freeT4.

I've noticed this pattern now several times in blood results posted on the forum. It looks like this may be an early phase of thyroid deterioration, where the body is keeping the supply of T3 as close to normal as it can, so TSHs are not necessarily too high.

Is this the kind of pattern you were thinking of? Pretty low freeT4, freeT3 can even be in the top third but often middke-ish, and TSH maybe a little elevated 2.5-4-ish?

Hidden
Hidden in reply to SilverAvocado

Yes my child has a much higher T3 than T4 and boy has raging hypothyroid symptoms. His tsh has been about 2.5 so not alarming but this is consistant I think with possible genetic issue. battling withGP to get him tested. Makes me really cross that a cold constipated overweight boywith fatigue has to tick any furthur boxes but cest la vie.

SilverAvocado
SilverAvocado in reply to Hidden

Please let me know if you make any progress with Thyroid Hormone Resistance, as I suspect I have some form of it. I've had zero luck on the NHS. I don't think a GP would have heard of it, and I don't think the genetic testing is available to patients, although it has been done in research. There is one centre in the UK, Addenbrookes. My consultant referred me, but I was turned down. Another member who is an expert on hormone resistance and has written an ebook. I think his son has it, was also turned down.

Although the pattern you describe sounds like it could just be early phases of hypothyroid. Does he have thyroid antibodies? If you can get a positive test for those it should give you some leverage. His vitamins may also be very low, increasing symptoms. Although 2.5 is well inside the normal range, I think it's still higher than a person w a healthy thyroid would have. I have a good link about that I will try to dig out for you.

I'd say the first thing to try and get hold of is that antibody test, because if that is positive it's solid proof you can take the the bank. And also investigate vitamin deficiencies and treat them yourself, because that will reduce his symptoms a bit.

Unfortunately he's in the state many people end up in, having to wait for his thyroid to get bad enough to be treated :(

This is one of the links. I'm sure I have a better one but can't find.

web.archive.org/web/2004060...

This shows a graph of the distribution of TSHs. It's printed too small to see the numbers, but I think you can say that 90% plus of healthy people will have a TSH lower than your sons. Now somebody could argue your son is in the <10%, but I think his symptoms strongly suggest otherwise.

Unfortunately you won't persuade any doctors with this. The only decision is whether to self medicate, or not. If he has resistance those numbers won't raise when you give him a trial of hormone, or they will raise but his symptoms won't reduce. But I think it's more likely he has Hashimotos, because so far his pattern basically fits that. Although B12 or vitamin D deficiency are also very possible. You need to test to find out for all those things.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to SilverAvocado

I did a big battle with pediatrcian re resistance to thyroid alpha and got no where. I was advised by genetic charity to ask GPfor genetic counselling rather than name the condition and that they might be more amenable. Thye have got a lovelu student doctor in the practice, really alert, seemed to have goodknowledge of thyroid and how took me seriously when I was able to provide evidence of some of the lies the pediatrcuan had told. Unfortunatly she has to discuss my childs case with another doctor called Dr Dodo LOL (her supervisor) and her name really does say it all.

I am giving child vitamins and he is doing much better on homepathic stuff that really helps me butI know from my own experiance that he needs thyroid hormones as his brain seems to begoingdown hill all the time. I haverecently had myself tested for all possible antibodies but came outclear from Blue horizen. My family has so many markers for this resistance that I was not suprised.My childfindsbloodtests exceptionally distressing and as in so many ways hisissues are like mine I have been testing myself as an indicator of what his issues might be.

I think the next plan is to pay for testing £700 or pay for genetic doctor to recommend testing.

SilverAvocado
SilverAvocado in reply to Hidden

Mandyjane, have just realised I may have made a mistake above talking about whether this is an abnormal TSH, because these are figures for adults :( I don't know your son's age, and also don't know what difference it makes, I think children have higher TSHs.

I have sent you a private message as we are really clogging up this discussion! Good news that private testing may be possible.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Hidden

mandyjane, this can also be indicative of iodine deficiency. The thyroid makes more T3 than T4 in order to use less iodine.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to greygoose

Thanks I will re establish iodine tablets for him.

greygoose
greygoose in reply to Hidden

NO! You must not supplement iodine without getting him tested for iodine deficiency first. You could make him a lot worse than he already is. And, even if he is deficient, it's not just a question of taking iodine supplements, there are protocols to put in place, and it should be done by a doctor who knows how to treat iodine deficiency. Iodine is not something to play around with.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to greygoose

I have done a lot of investigations on this and he was prescribed by doctor although I cannot manage every thing she suggested. I think the general fear about iodine, drug company driven and alarmist. I am part of a facebook group that uses it a lot for thyroid issues and it was the treatment prior to NDT. I also really like a DrBrownstein and love his book on thyroid care and he supports quite heavy doses. I err on the side of caution with my child and he only has a tiny dose.

diogenes
diogenes in reply to Hidden

Sorry, it's well tested science. Giving iodine to Hashimoto subjects willy-nilly is dangerous and can cause thyroid storms and instability. Nothing to do with drug company propaganda - real science. You can get into much difficulty if you've any working thyroid left. Iodine admin should be done if at all under strict medical supervision.

Hidden
Hidden in reply to diogenes

Thanks I will take your word for it.

So what happens to those like myself who have had a TT or RAI and have no functioning thyroid gland? Does taking external hormone compensate?

Hidden
Hidden in reply to amala57

I am not sure I understand. You are taking some thyroid hormones arnt you?

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to Hidden

But any thyroid hormones taken would not include T1AM. If the thyroid makes T1AM, anyone who does not have a thyroid would also not have any T1AM.

(Of course, it is not impossible that desiccated thyroid would contain T1AM.)

helvella
helvellaAdministrator

I am not clear what process makes 3-Iodothyronamine? What affects the process, where it occurs, etc.

I hope that the scientific community picks up on this: Toward this aim, we would like to propose some points of reflection to the scientific community working on 3-iodothyronamine and thyroid hormone metabolites: ...

diogenes
diogenes in reply to helvella

At the moment nobody is sure whether it comes direct from the thyroid, or whether it is made ouside from T4 or T3 by various body enzymes. It is found also in brain. There seems to be relationships with other trace hormones (T1 for example) but the chief finding is that it is converted to 3-iodoacetic acid by mitochondria, and this has its effect on the production of insulin. Now, if it is thyroid-originated then this has different implications for those with no thyroid under therapy, than if it is body-produced. I wonder however whether in either case there are implications for diabetes control.

diogenes
diogenes in reply to helvella

Another snippet about the effect of this hormone on brain fun action:

T1AM behaved as a neuromodulator, affecting adrenergic and/or histaminergic neurons. Intracerebral T1AM administration favored learning and memory, modulated sleep and feeding, and decreased the pain threshold. In conclusion T1AM should be considered as a component of thyroid hormone signaling and might play a significant physiological and/or pathophysiological role

helvella
helvellaAdministrator

The paper diogenes posted refers in turn to this:

sciencedirect.com/science/a...

Which is also accessible. :-) At least, you can get the words onto your computer but whether your brain is able to access the information is another matter altogether. :-)

The first thought that popped into my head is that this would piss off the people who thought "thyroid is easy".

But I know their response will just be to ignore it.

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to humanbean

No-one thinks thyroid is easy. You can only get to that implied position by NOT thinking - just assuming. :-)

humanbean
humanbean in reply to helvella

Sadly, I disagree. Search for the word "easy" on this page (and it appears far too often for my liking) and see the contexts it appears in. :(

endocrineweb.com/conditions...

Edit - And this page - very first sentence

webmd.com/women/tc/hypothyr...

helvella
helvellaAdministrator in reply to humanbean

They are surely demonstrating a lack of ability to think properly? And falling into the assumption that they understand? :-)

Quite obviously, they do not understand. :-(

helvella
helvellaAdministrator

Just looking for more T1AM information and came across the paper below.

Somewhat surprisingly, I noticed the following fragments:

T3, T4, and rT3 decreased GABA uptake in synaptosomes derived from rat brain

In rodents these carriers are mainly represented by MCT8, which transports both T3 and T4, and OATP1C1, which shows a higher affinity for T4 and reverse T3.

Both of these appear to suggest effects of rT3 other than as a totally inactive bypass between T4 and T2 - avoiding T3.

Front Physiol. 2014; 5: 402.

Published online 2014 Oct 16. Prepublished online 2014 Sep 4. doi: 10.3389/fphys.2014.00402

PMCID: PMC4199266

Update on 3-iodothyronamine and its neurological and metabolic actions

Riccardo Zucchi,* Alice Accorroni, and Grazia Chiellini

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

Thank you for the link to this really interesting article. On the same site I also found another informative and relevant piece of research:

Recent Advances in Thyroid Hormone Regulation: Toward a New Paradigm for Optimal Diagnosis and Treatment

..."T3/T4 combination therapy may be preferable to patients with persistent symptoms or a failure to sufficiently raise their FT3 concentration despite LT4 dose escalation and TSH suppression."

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