I'm new to T3 and after reading about Cytomel on here earlier I thought I'd google to see if it's the same as Tiromel and lo and behold I find out it's a weight loss drug!!
How come I'm not losing any weight then? My T3 is pretty good ( 5.00 (3.1 - 6.8)) and though some of my symptoms are relieved I am finding it VERY hard to lose weight.
Any thoughts/advice anyone please? Thanks
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infomaniac
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Some body builders, with no thyroid problems, buy T3 and use it in increasing amounts for a few weeks then work their way down in dose again. I've seen doses of 75mcg T3 being mentioned quite often.
They do it to reduce fat coverage before competitions.
I have seen several mentions of tachycardia and arrhythmia happening, and people were moaning because they couldn't get their dose above 40mcg per day!
One thing there is never a shortage of is stupid people.
I don't know, but the whole "bulk up, diet down" can't be good for you. I blew up my adrenals first (or that's what I noticed first and had abnormal synacthen test) and just got worse from there on. It looks as though my pituitary just went into sulk mode. But I can't be sure that it was T3 abuse, as I had a couple of head and neck injuries in that time period too.
I gained 8 lbs while on it, so I wouldn't consider it a "weight loss drug" at all
I am on the other side.. I had the same weight for over ten years then I gained 6 kilograms in few months after I started taking levothyroxine, not mentioning the bulky hair loss I had for the first six months... now my hair is dry but not falling anymore and my weight is stable (8 months after medication initiated)
T3 (doesn't matter which brand) is NOT a weight loss drug it is thyroid replacement although some people do find weight shifts once they are optimally dosed. Bodybuilders using steroids take high doses of T3 for a few weeks prior to competition to act as fat burners. Taking high dose T3 for more than a few weeks at a time is likely to cause atrial fibrillation.
It is because we have hypothyroidism and one of the symptoms (of course not everyone gets this) is unexplained weight gain, due to having a very low metabolism. I think the 'weight loss' is appealing to those who are body-builders who want muscle definition. I am on T3 and haven't lost weight but nevert gained either and am much the same weight I was before hypo. It all depends.
TSH should be 1 or lower and one Doctor states that our TSH should be below 1. Excerpt:
6 What is the correct dose of thyroxine and is there any rationale for adding in tri-iodothyronine?
The appropriate dose of levothyroxine is that which restores euthyroidism and serum TSH to the lower part of the reference range – 0.2-0.5mU/l.
In this case, free thyroxine is likely to be in the upper part of its reference range or even slightly elevated – 18-22pmol/l. Most patients will feel well in that circumstance.
But some need a higher dose of levothyroxine to suppress serum TSH and then the serum-free T4 concentration will be elevated at around 24-28pmol/l.
This ‘exogenous subclinical hyperthyroidism’ is not dangerous as long as serum T3 is unequivocally normal – that is, serum total around T3 1.7nmol/l (reference range 1.0-2.2nmol/l).
Even while taking the slightly higher dose of levothyroxine a handful of patients continue to complain that a sense of wellbeing has not been restored. A trial of levothyroxine and tri-iodothyronine is not unreasonable. The dose of levothyroxine should be reduced by 50µg daily and tri iodothyronine in a dose of 10µg (half a tablet) daily added.
While taking both hormones it is important serum TSH is normal and not suppressed. If the patient is still dissatisfied it should be made clear that the symptoms have nothing to do with thyroid disease or its treatment and perhaps issues at home and in the workplace should be addressed.
I don't care if my TSH is suppressed or not if I feel well. I think Dr T is going along with the usual crowd's viewpoint. What about cancer patients, they have to have it suppressed and
are probably not on this forum as they are 'out and about'.
What annoys me most is:
If the patient is still dissatisfied it should be made clear that the symptoms have nothing to do with thyroid disease or its treatment and perhaps issues at home and in the workplace should be addressed.
as that's what most of the professionals seem to believe when we keep complaining of disabling symptoms.
Excerpt from Dr L:-
You may find it helpful to keep in mind a clear-cut double standard of the endocrinology specialty. Endocrinologists keep thousands of thyroid cancer patients on TSH-suppressive doses of thyroid hormone. But these specialists vociferously warn of grave dangers if hypothyroid patients use the same TSH-suppressive doses. However, meta-analyses of studies show that these doses are harmless to thyroid cancer patients, despite them staying on the doses for decades. Rather than harming the cancer patients, TSH-suppressive doses appear to benefit them: researchers write that the patients report feeling better on these doses than hypothyroid patients do on T4-replacement. (In T4-replacement, of course, the patient uses a dose of thyroid hormone that doesn't suppress the TSH.)
The endocrinology specialty cannot reconcile this discrepancy in its practice guidelines for the two different groups of patients. This to me is one of many pieces of evidence that T4-replacement is driven by commerce—not by science or an aim for therapeutic effectiveness. I provide rock-hard evidence for this conclusion in my forthcoming book Tyranny of the TSH.
Infomaniac, here are my quickly jotted down comments on your question:
T3 / liothyronine is NOT a DRUG. It's a hormone replacement.
Tiromel, Cytomel, Cynomel, call it what you will, the active ingredient is liothyrone, which is a hormone replacement.
In other words, it doesn't matter what the brand name is, if the active ingredient is liothyronine, then it's a hormone replacement, not a drug.
Some people find that when they take the right amount of T3 (i.e. that their body needs), they lose the excess weight gained when hypo.
Some people find that if they overdose on T3, they lose weight. They may also get a lot of unwanted, potentially dangerous side effects by overdosing on T3.
Lots of people taking T3/liothyronine DO NOT lose weight, regardless of how much they take.
I always say HORMONES - never drugs or meds - we know what that line is about and where it can go, for those who believe docs. Please any/everyone... try to adopt the word 'Hormones' when referring to your thyroid stuff, whatever it is that you take No one would call HRT 'their meds' - just a quirk of mine xox
Suzi-B, In my opinion, it's fine to use the word 'medication' (abbreviated to 'meds' ) for hormone replacements. It's the word 'drugs' that has negative connotations for me, and is often frightening to those being told they need to take thyroid hormone for the rest of their life.
Medicine is generally thought of in a positive way, being something good with which to heal our ailments. Medicine comes in many forms, including herbal.
Whereas 'drugs' is a term that tends to be viewed more negatively, as in 'illicit drugs', or 'synthetic drugs'.
That's fine - and you can all call stuff whatever you choose to. It's the overall concept where people can often be patronized, I'm not but some are and say they feel it. (Endos and GPs can be very trying!) I have found that use of the word hormone is to attempt to bring some of them back to the world that we're living in. It's not 'medication' with its numerous connotations [no, not my sensitivities or avoidance 😀], it's just a small distinction for the labellers out there. If you're not in the world of hypothyroidism, CFS/ME etc, you may not recognise the potency of such language registers. Anyways, Season's Greetings xox 🌲
I'm not taking it as 'disagreeing' 💚 I'm not in that profession, so as a patient my choice [NHS Constitution 😅 etc - joking], is to prefer the term hormones.
Yeh I get that, it’s just that you don’t normally say to a patient here’s your hormones can you take them please, it sounds better professionally if you say here’s your medication or here’s your meds 🤷♀️
Hmm, not quite so comparable. HRT may - for some - be helpful with troublesome signs/symptoms. Adequate thyroid hormones are essential and required for every organ to function well. 🎶
I’m in no way comparing HRT to thyroid hormones........ I was just trying to explain when you give out medication the terminology that you use, which is normally “here’s your medication” or “would you like to take your meds now!”
I wasn't suggesting that you were comparing HRT to thyroid hormones, I suppose only that the word 'hormone' is used!? Err, no explanation necessary. Again, what you or 'all' say is quite immaterial to me. I'm pretty sure that a good service would be welcolmed by most, not whichever word(s) are used.
Complaining? Others were preferring 'meds' to 'drugs' - I believe I clarified that drugs are [WHO and BNF actually use drugs] interchangable. I said: "What you all say is quite immaterial to me...." - that says exactly what I mean. Do read what is said above and you should be able to decipher, not only my words but the meaning therein.
Just what is this about? How bizarre for you to turn a four year old post into... what, exactly? 😅 🌲 I see you joined in Nov 2020... hmm
How about, perhaps you 'should' not have repeated your message over and over? (Oh insulin is now synthetic too )
I got what you were saying way back up the page - where you jumped from a message posted 4 YEARS ago to your [now becoming somewhat pedantic over...? what?] response at 22+ HOURS ago . Is there some other 'issue' that you want to 'debate'?
Do take care, the medical field is known to cultivate some who seem unable to be 'wrong' - for me, there is no 100% 'right or wrong in science'... just good approximations, for the time being.
Be well, stay safe. And as I ended way above, Season's Greetings 🌲
Sorry I didn’t realise the post was from 4 yrs ago 😂😂😂 as they are coming up on my news feed now 🤷♀️ So I answered them!! I didn’t expect you to be so flaming rude either...... I was t debating I was having a conversation and replying to your comments, I’m not rude so i don’t tend to ignore people when they reply to me 🤷♀️
For whatever reason you're the first person NEW to re-start off this old 4 year post in response to me - fine, no problem - it's not too unusual. Check it out above, you began this dialogue: it didn't appear 'as if by magic'. You didn't need to answer or argue the toss over the distinction between different terminologies used AND if you are 'in the medical field' (as you say above), then make statements as you have... perhaps you needed to limit repetition?
Way above I made clear my view on using the term 'hormones' - that's it - period, OVER. For whatever reason you've come back and back with it - it became tedious - you weren't debating at all and it was not a conversation, either. Rudeness lies in the eye of the beholder... it is for you to interpret what you seem to think is going on here. Now, for one more time, Season's Greetings, stay safe and well.
Of course... 'normal'!? And as above, you can and do all use your words of choice, for me the distinction of 'hormone' is how I view it. Again,as above, the word 'DRUG' is universally used too. This seems of > importance to you than is does me
Point being is that there's a medical mindset surrounding hypothyroidism [and other chronic] health issues which is often rather unhelpful. Perhaps if patients were treated semi-reasonably and the medic in question was professionally prepared to adequately prescribe for the individual, not insignificant #'s of patients might feel not quite so let down by endos and uninformed GPs. Words would be of less... if action was appropriate. 😎
T3 can be said to help with 'weight loss' (body builders sometimes use it for leanness, along with steroids for bulk ) - unless your body is 'receptive' at whichever point to lose weight, it simply won't. I spent over a decade looking for a solution... used NDT and that did nothing re weight but the small amount of T3 in that helped in other ways re signs/symptoms - confirming my thyroid really was in trouble (needing good old Dr S and Dr P to diagnose!).
I used T3 (Cynomel, Tiromel and then another brand) and would lose a couple of pounds here, back on in winter and during that time I exercised to an extent that many twenty years younger than me could barely handle - I was super fit and had an exemplary - long term - eating plan... still nothing changed the weight gain. Bearing in mind that I was taking 62.5 mcg of T3 (now 50 mcg) daily... this preparation won't solve weigh issues when what's behind that is more than what you eat/exercise (the old Calories In-Calories Out). People of a 'normal' weight who start eating more and do much less than usual can, of course, gain weight - when they rectify that, they are likely to experience a return to their usual weight. Once unexplained weight piles on (often hormonal - stress, thyroid, menopause) - the task feels multiplied ten-fold! We each need to find 'our own key' out of it and no matter how many doctors or whoever tell you its CI-CO, that often is not the solution for those of us in these circumstances. Sorry
Over time, however, if there is Reverse T3 (I've never been tested!)... our cells may eventually become more receptive, clear out that 'reverse overflow' and have our thyroid hormones function better: (since T4 is not an active hormone and T2, T1 and calcitonin primarily deal with other things... and no one seems to gets weight issues solved via T4, then T3 ought to be helpful). Just a thought...
At least feeling better is a great start. I'm sure people on here, who know way more than my personal stuff, can help on this one. Best of xx
I went too slimming world, I lost 3 and a half stone! It stayed off for 4 years.....I’ve only started putting the weight back in since covid lockdown, why?? I will tell you why, because I’ve over eaten and not excersised it’s really us that simple if you eat more than your body needs you will get fat and put corpus amounts of weight on 🤷♀️ At work I noticed that the slim girls only are small meals compared to my bigger meals, it seems I have an addiction to food 🤔 I just can’t say no I eat even when I’m not hungry! 😱😰
My weight loss came only with LCHF and NO exercise, compared to Low Fat and small amounts of carbs + TONS of heavy duty exercise. I didn't eat a lot - it's mostly down to hormones for me. Check out Dr Jason Fung on Intermittent Fasting. Or plump for balancing your Leptin/Ghrelin hormones - if you check our my posts, you'll see - either 2015/16 for the best thing I ever did. xox
pugsley, it absolutely doesn't matter what the brand name is, if the active ingredient is liothyronine/T3, then it has the potential to help you lose the excess weight you put on when hypo and/or on T4 only. Congrats on your weight loss.
I heartily endorse the "liothyronine is NOT a weight loss drug" comments of others.
Excess liothyronine can certainly make people lose weight. Trouble is, it can make them lose muscle weight. You must always remember that the heart is a muscle. EXCESS liothyronine (i.e. resulting in high levels of Free T3 in the bloodstream) can be dangerous because it can adversely affect the heart.
Without careful observation, it can be difficult to be certain whether muscle is being lost.
Careful and thoughtful use of liothyronine, in doses appropriate to the individual, can definitely help some people. That dose is not necessarily easy to identify.
My heart was dreadful before I began using [first NDT... just enough T3 was enough to help with the dreadful arrhythmia and being woken up out of sleep with a heart rate of 39 bpm and daytime in low 50's]. I've been much better on T3 alone since Dec 2012. BUT with no doctor prepared to deal with my condition... because they 'Don't agree with T3'!?, then I'm largely left to work it out for myself. I do look at those indicators necessary for health but so wish there was someone who had half a clue as to what they're doing re hypothyroidism.
It is interesting how many references there are to T3 in papers that are from heart specialists.
A niche application is in prevention of reperfusion injury which occurs when blood flow has been cut off for some time and is then re-established. That seems to be fairly common in some heart surgery.
If they really, really knew and had at least decades of evidence, then their arguments against might have a place. But they don't. They assume. They base their ideas on what seems reasonable.
My little point: Levothyroxine at bed-time improved my sleep substantially. No - it damned well didn't act like coffee or amphetamines...
Yes helvella, I've copied quite a few cardiology references... no one wants to know - not even cardiologists... "That's for endos to deal with", (who don't want to know because I've never 'satisfied' their thyroid profile - see * below). Endos say, "That's for the cardiologist to deal with" - I'd pity them under other circumstances, err like being charged with lives Oh assumption is the order of the day! Thank you for that info above - yes I take T3 before bed to keep my heart rate up.
Heart: one thing that did eventually show up in 2007 (maybe 3 years after first heart symptoms) was a dreadful, weird arrhythmia + couple of leaking values, said not to be sinister. I think one or two 'blocks' were seen in 2014 ... never had any treatment, anything really, except an offer in 2007 to have the same 2007 private tests 'run again' because the same consultant didn't see me once under NHS: (I refused so as to not wish to waste NHS money for an echo I'd just paid for - using their facilities - I can't abide queue jumping but it was meant to be a N'd hosp... it wasn't, and it had been a long while that I was jerking out of my sleep with a low HR... often nurses couldn't get a pulse - oo-er)! So, given all of the exercise I've done, who knows what state my heart is in? Ah, when I explained to my GP how my heart rate hadn't gone down rapidly after strenuous exercise... he said, "Well don't take your heart rate" - my response, "So ignorance is bliss"?
*Took until Feb 2010 to be diagnosed by Dr S (then Dr P on another issue) - no doubt that I was hypothyroid - had a square face - weight gain (back to infomaniac - so very sorry!) and several signs/symptoms. T4 had me 'off it' (toxic in no time). NDT worked a treat for 2 1/2 years - still no weight loss - then T3 for 4+ years (still now with hypothyroid signs/symptoms). Sadly, some of us just learn to 'cobble together our health' as best we can.
The weight issue in particular is infuriating - they simply won't listen and rely on ludicrous, never applicable to humans, laws of thermodynamics. Off their heads! Weight loss only came when I did the opposite of standard medical advice on losing weight, then they said it worked because 'she'd tried' (I'd 'tried for over a decade - unbelievably so - I had been a slim person for most of my life and became obese - not hugely so but a good few stone!). I SO FEEL FOR ANYONE with a weight issue (even Tr*mp!!) - mine is far from fixed but 48 lbs down was (effortlessly) great for me.
Sorry folks, I can't précis any longer (part of my superordinate constructs have gone awry with this condition - I can't order physical things like I used to meticulously do in research) - but I'm doing OK... except in winter when I'm freezing, punch drunk and uncoordinated... oh, they don't want to know about that either. Hope something interests someone - many of us have so much to deal with Take care and be well folks xox
Ah, he had students in at the time... they spluttered, not being used to anyone saying much to doctors! Seriously, we were doing beach walks x3 times a week to get me fit and my heart rate - usually low - was staying up at 125 bpm even 2 hours later. Oh, you shouldn't google to find that this could be a really serious problem! That's why I mentioned it... my heart was racing all that time after and he said that! Best part of this is, I'd always had great BP but false readings at surgery; turns out they frightened me - only ones who could into White Coat - that I had high BP - yet I didn't; when a Holter confirmed this I was told, "OK so you've proved the point"... like, that I didn't have high BP; they should have been pleased yet I was scolded! No £$ in well people! But why can't they deal with the ill aspects? I'm done with it!
To not google could so often mean to not know that you need to get help.
There are so many stories of people identifying things that need medical attention after seeing a newspaper story, reading a magazine, watching a television program, hearing something on the radio. Even =-, for that matter, skimming through the leaflets so common in GP surgeries! Googling is just the mechanism of today for finding out - and it is massively more directed and less random.
Many things appear mild or unimportant to begin with. On the basis we don't have immediate access to qualified medical staff, and try to avoid calling on their resources most of the time, the advice not to google is utterly ridiculous.
If doctors are not giving us answers or as you say we don't make appointments because we are constantly being told not to waste doctors time what are we supposed to do? All I can say is "thank god for the internet".
Exactly! It was Dr Chris on This Morning who initially diagnosed me... after my insisting that I see an endo, 2008, and being told by him 'to knock a sandwich out of my food intake' (sitting there fatigued to death, square-faced, obese with a list of signs/symptoms that an optically challenged man on a galloping... could have readily seen) - I just went back to being 'slumped' again until... Dr Chris said, "Don't take NO for an answer"... I went back 2009... made no difference 3.8 TSH (on my knees and half-dying), not hypothyroid. So Dr Chris, Google, Dr SKINNER and Dr P and HU have helped me save my life - thank you all
I'm sure he's on, or used to be, the Committee here?? Also, I think he is/was a GP so we couldn't feasibly go to him.
I am tired of looking for a doctor who has some clue without slavishly following the TSH (even thyroid profile... once taking hormones, this and the time of day taken, can only serve as an indicator for the larger % of people, not the 'outliers')... 'needle-haystack'. Knowledgeable ones are dead or too scared. Best of...
My BP always goes up when having it checked at doctors or hospital but when I check at home its fine. I took a weeks BP measures to show GP and and he just put it to one side and asked if there was anything else! My husband had a similar experience and was prescribed statins which he refused to take after I told him about the research on these. Just guinea pigs???
Although I have no reason to be concerned, I can feel my blood pressure rising when it is measured at the surgery. I am so ultra-conscious of "white coat" hypertension, that it becomes real!
Similarly, home measurements have been exactly as they should be.
DoggyBone, There are very good reasons why we on ThyroidUK make a clear distinction between drugs and hormone replacements.
Many people, when first diagnosed with a thyroid disorder get extremely upset when their doctor tells them that they will have to take thyroid medication for life. We frequently see people panicking because they are frightened of being on DRUGS for LIFE. People generally consider drugs to be chemicals that are alien to the body, so they are very scared about having to take them every day for the rest of their life. The word drugs also has a negative connotation for many because it is used when talking of the 'illegal' 'street' drugs.
When it is carefully explained to thyroid patients, that T4 and T3 are hormone replacements, and that these are taken to replace the missing hormones that their thyroid is not producing, these people start to understand that they have nothing to fear.
Me too hachiko. When we're first diagnosed and just starting off down the thyroid treatment route, we often suffer from awful anxiety issues. So when we get told we have to suddenly take 'drugs for life', we perhaps overreact. Especially if we had previously thought we were fit and healthy, it comes as a big shock to suddenly find we are very ill with an incurable disease.
Also, I think maybe women understand this aspect more than men. Women are used to dealing with hormones in the form of birth control and HRT etc. Many men just don't get the hormone thing at all
Later I have come to realize how well said it was by my doctor; maybe he reads UK thyroid
(I still get anxious sometimes, but I try to focus on the possibility of feeling better, once the thyroid hormone levels are balanced. And also focusing on being grateful for having this thing diagnosed in the first place! - instead of still going un-diganosed...)
a obsolete : a substance used in dyeing or chemical operationsb : a substance used as a medication or in the preparation of medicationc according to the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (1) : a substance recognized in an official pharmacopoeia or formulary (see formulary 3) (2) : a substance intended for use in the diagnosis, cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease <prescription drugs> <drugs for treating high blood pressure> (3) : a substance other than food intended to affect the structure or function of the body (4) : a substance intended for use as a component of a medicine but not a device or a component, part, or accessory of a device
2
: a commodity that is not salable or for which there is no demand (see 1demand 3a) —used in the phrase drug on the market
3
: something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation (see habituation 2b), or a marked change in consciousness <keeping teens off drugs> <heroin and other hard drugs>
And
Definition of medicine
1
a : a substance or preparation used in treating disease <cough medicine>b : something that affects well-being <he's bad medicine — Zane Grey>
2
a : the science and art dealing with the maintenance of health and the prevention, alleviation, or cure of disease <She's interested in a career in medicine.>b : the branch of medicine concerned with the nonsurgical treatment of disease
3
: a substance (as a drug or potion) used to treat something other than disease
4
: an object held in traditional American Indian belief to give control over natural or magical forces; also : magical power or a magical rite
That, especially the third definition of drug, explains why to a large extent UK English usage prefers medicine to drug for things doctors prescribe. For example, Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency and Human Medicines Regulations 2012. And Dangerous Drugs Act 1920 for things that doctors shouldn't prescribe.
That the USA decided upon Food and Drug Administration emphasises the difference.
This is a UK-based forum so tends to UK English usage.
It's a weight-loss drug (if you are not hypo) in the same way as testosterone is a muscle builder (if you are not deficient). If/when everything is optimal, you should gradually return to "normal" weight for your height, assuming that there's no insulin resistance, incipient type 2 diabetes etc - and you don't spend all your time on the sofa eating biccies.
I started t3 (Tiromel) in July. I was treated only with t4 for the last two years (since diagnosis of hypothyroidism) at a dose started at 50 and now at 100mcg. T4 did nothing for me, apart from keeping me exhausted (though slightly less) and making me put on ever more weight regardless of my very very strict diet (grrrrr).
I now take T3, 75/day and my weight has dropped from 11,4 stone to 10,5 stone already, my mood is now amazing, I have buckets of energy and feel like I am back to what I was before the hypothyroidism disaster.
Right now I am considering dropping t4 all together since it is becoming very obvious that I do not convert at all.
75mcg T3 is equivalent to 225mcg Levothyroxine so you may be overmedicated. I advise you have a thyroid function test, including FT3, to check FT3 remains within range. thyroiduk.org.uk/tuk/testin... Medichecks offer #ThyroidThursday discounts.
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