LDN: and here comes the hiccup.: Well, here I am... - Thyroid UK

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LDN: and here comes the hiccup.

Schenks profile image
131 Replies

Well, here I am, four months into taking LDN and I’m up at 1.30am on a Saturday morning after having taken the dogs out this morning (as in Friday) on the electric tramper free to hire for us crips at the Country Park along the Ribble Estuary, which is an important widening mudflat just inland from the mouth of the river; it fills to the brim with water at each tide that ebbs to reveal deep gullies in wide expanses of thick, greyish-brown stinky mud that the bird life (including herons and snowy egrets and other more exotic fayre – like Lapwings, for god’s sake) seems to go mad for. And which, when they return to the car, sets like concrete knickers around the dogs’ goolies every time they get the chance of a ‘plowt’, as they say where I come from. And not a flat cap or a whippet in sight (my Bertie is a Golden Retriever cross and Wisley a Patterdale Terrier on stilts). So that was at around 10.30am.

Thereafter I didn’t really stop. Felt like I was made of hollow, boiled spaghetti, mind you, but kept going all day. And I’m absolutely knackered now, but having been intoxicated all evening I am lively still but distinctly mellow. Not yellow, though. My liver’s fine.

I’ve lost a stone and a half on an eating plan of my own devising (developed over the last 25 years), and I’m aiming to walk 20 minutes a day – because 30 minutes knocks me back to sleep for a good couple of hours.

So I've been doing alright.

However; three weeks ago my final increase in the LDN went up to 4.5mg, the optimum advised on the LDN information website and links. As some of you may recall, I have experienced an exacerbation of symptoms/relapse from 24 hours or so after each dosage increase, lasting for between 3 and 5 days until the next surge wipes it away. Not last time.

It was earlier this week when I realised that I still felt ill after the final increase, as in fluey, achy or in horrible pain, somewhat nauseated, woolly and weak. I was puzzled and troubled. I had experienced the most amazing leaps in recovery when I started this LDN part of the journey, particularly in the sleep area where insomnia or poor sleep dogged – nay, blighted my nights and therefore my days. Post starting LDN I had read three books, one after the other, completed the front of my cabinet (to the most encouraging of support, I might add) and felt like I had begun to come round from a deep and terrible sleep. But for the last three weeks I’ve felt … well, crap. Not in the same league of crap as a few months ago, before taking the LDN, but crap as in I felt I’d slipped back a few weeks in the ‘I’m climbing out of this hole’ trip.

I got to thinking about what we suffer when we are so badly let down, and even damaged, by the medical profession. Iatrogenic illness, they call it. Well, medicine may not have caused our initial dis-ease, but currently it fails dismally in alleviating it and often serves to worsen the symptoms, as badly trained medics may further damage trauma victims by wrongly handling them.

So the first thing I realised is that my body is damaged. From all the years of lying around, unable to move; from all the weight gain; from all the anxiety and depression, treated by antidepressants and therapy instead of a simple tablet of desiccated thyroid gland; the brain fog, and the fatigue, the crippling languor that, rather than being simply tired feels like one’s life force is slowly draining away through the souls of the feet, leaving one vaporising inside into a ghost of oneself. There have been days, days when I have felt, quietly and with a gentle regret, that I was dying and leaving a life only ever half-lived, a husband bereft and alone.

So it was with huge excitement that I experienced a surge of betterness for the first three months or so of the LDN. But it’s slowed. I now realise that someone who has been so ill for the last 10 years has racked up some damage to her body. Similar to someone in a terrible car crash. They go to hospital, are sent to the Intensive Care ward. They look desperately ill, until the day when they are well enough to go onto the ordinary ward – they look so much better. And then comes the wonderful day when they are well enough to go home. How fantastic they look as they walk out of hospital and get into the car to go home.

And that’s when they, and their family, realise how damaged they have been, when the cumulative impairment becomes apparent. It’s then when they get some concept of the real road to recovery. And that’s where I am now, where LDN has brought me to. Home.

Now the fight back has to begin afresh; the fight to get better as opposed to not dying.

I get tired, sure, fall asleep on the settee for a couple of hours, yes, but I rarely feel that terrible draining of life force nowadays. Actually, not quite so true, come to think of it. I’ve nearly felt it for the first time since taking the upper dose of LDN over the last three weeks. Which brings me on to my next point.

I came to the conclusion that beneath the fat and the myxoedema and the porridgy flesh here and there, the places that have sagged in a way that might give a wee sporran a run for its money and the parts where the skin looks like it could do with a bit of an iron, I’m actually quite a wee thing. I’m now down to 5’ 3” – I’ve lost a half an inch along the way (and I am definitely going to have a mini facelift when I’ve lost the next 4 stone, *&%”+ those that would say that this face has been earned. This face has been imposed. The earnings I’ll keep). Therefore my true body mass, since fat is comparatively inert, needs less LDN than my husband's - who is slim, b****y-well.

But I digress. I’m quite little under all this effing fat. So I dropped the dose of the LDN, despite the nagging doubt instigated by the instruction that “4.5 mg is the optimum, 4.5 mg is the optimum” as quoted by those who quote Dr Bihari. God rest his soul (why it is that all the best and most innovative and dedicated doctors just die on us?). I’ve gone down to 4.0 mg for the last four days – and I think I feel less crap; after all, I’ve been busy all day, and thoroughly enjoyed my evening of intoxication, custard tarts and Aero (not together), and the Masterchef final followed by a dessert of Blithe Spirit. And the farting, which I'm only experiencing as a result of going quite dietarily mad this evening, is a much undervalued activity: one forgets quite how satisfying it can be.

Maybe, I decided, I’d been trying to run before I could totter. So I’m going to wait a couple of weeks to see if I should hold at this dose of LDN at 4.0 mg or drop again. But, I suspect … I think ... I’m over a bit of a plateau in improvement and back on the upward slope, only at a more gently incline this time. Still – what a trip! In every sense!

So, what's the time now? AAArgh!

Off to bed, said Zebbedee. Lah lah lah laaah laaah, lah lah lah lah laaah laaah ...

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Schenks profile image
Schenks
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131 Replies
Steni profile image
Steni

Wonderful !!! So entertaining 😂

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toSteni

:-/

Marz profile image
Marz

Great read - thank you :-)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toMarz

;)

helbell profile image
helbell

I loved reading that!!!! And you are so on the money with descriptive phrases of our pesky malaise...esp farting!

Thank you and God bless 😂

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

Thanks and God bless you too. :)

alangardner profile image
alangardner

super post , ------- info , descriptive and brilliant entertainment from your experiences [ i'm still trying to imagine the ''concrete goolies'' - how the 'eck do the dogs sort that out ?? ] .... it brought a giggle to my face at the very least .... keep going and make sure you update now and then --- especially about the antics of the doggies ......alan x

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toalangardner

Hose set at jet to the nethers - it breaks up the concrete mud and sure wakes the b*ggers up! They get their own back, though. If I'm not on the ball enough ( :x ) [and no pun intended] they wait for the space between when I'm putting the hose back and just before I get the towels, and manage to open the patio door, go into the kitchen (or preferably the lounge, particularly on the settee) and shake themselves vigorously. Try getting little spatters of river mud, that a hose has simply loosened, off a ceiling!

x

alangardner profile image
alangardner in reply toSchenks

I suppose it could be worse ---- try imagining getting the gunge out of your hair when it's set --- but at least the doggies have some fun , and no doubt bring a few giggles to you [ eventually ] , when they snuggle up to you or warm your feet up

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toalangardner

True, true. 😃

fibrolinda profile image
fibrolinda

Good luck, I hope your realisation that you're only a wee thing gets your dosing right🙂 Absolutely brilliant read though, you have a real gift there... not talking about the farting lol 😆

Linda

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tofibrolinda

Thank you! :D

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tofibrolinda

Oh, just got the bit about the farting! I'll have you know that it is quite an art - depending on the angle of the hips and the variable clenching of the sphincter, one can create such a diversity in sound and experience (or so I am led to beielve. :O ) My husband can only manage 2 types - the SBD and the 'sound the Trumpets'! It's odd, though, how annoying I find his! :D

Jose651 profile image
Jose651 in reply toSchenks

Hahaaa, class S,

J x

Rennixon profile image
Rennixon

Oh my goodness - thank you ,for a wonderfully good read. 😊

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toRennixon

Thanks. x

Naomi8 profile image
Naomi8

I have a friend with long term M.E who can only tolerate .5ml.She is stabilized on that dose & believes it is helping considerably.I do not know if she will ever be able to raise.

STTM report that many with Hashi's do well sticking at 3.0ml.

I have been on LDN a year in August,starting at .5ml & raising very very slowly.I am sticking with 3.0ml.I do not know if I will ever raise.

I went GF & T3-only at the same time(August 2015)

Massive improvements in symptoms & energy levels,but do not believe I can repair the damage of 18 years on T4 monotherapy completely.I have to pace myself or my battery goes flat & I am running on empty.Stress fells me & my stress triggers(eg having to deal with my sister with BPD) can mean it takes me days to recover my mental & physical energy

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toNaomi8

Thanks for replying. I know exactly what you mean about stress. I still can't physically cope with stress, even though I can metaphorically stand back and observe it. Rather than calm it down I'm just left like a jelly that thinks "I feel like jelly". That's the next but one thing on my list (addressing the adrenals); it has to have something to do with adrenal glands, but I can't make the link just now between adrenal fatigue and a crash-response to stress. I mean, if we can't produce cortisol because our adrenals are fatigued then how come the crash? Perhaps it's something to do with adrenaline produced instead of cortisol - I dimly remember someone trying to explain that to me whilst I was still firing broad-shot, trying to fix everything all at once. I think I recall that adrenaline is produced in the night if the adrenals are fatigued because cortisol, needed to start us up in the daytime, is replaced by it in the early hours - which is why we can experience anxiety on waking or shortened sleep. Something like that. No doubt the experts will put me on the right track.

The next step for me now is B12 - and I'm having a devil of a job finding out how much to inject and how often for my level of symptoms. Have you thought about B12?

And can I ask why you are sticking at 3mg? I mean, what makes you feel that that is the optimum dose for you? As for your friend, I wonder why she wouldn't increase at tiny increments over longer periods? Did she experience relapses like me, after each raise?

Bluedragon profile image
Bluedragon in reply toSchenks

Have you had your B12 tested? Or your MMA or homocysteine? Hopefully you'll say all three. What were the levels?

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toBluedragon

My B12 was tested in November last year, and was 630 ng/L (range = 170 - 730 ng/L). I was already supplementing orally (Holland and Barrett - I was ignorant then!) but had stopped a few weeks before. I've been taking high doses of methylcobalamin (5000 mg/mcg?) and Thornes vit B complex for the folate since then, so testing isn't really an option, I believe. But what the hell are MMA and homocysteine?

By the way, I've posted a question about how much to inject and how often on the pernicious anaemia site and only got two answers. Talk about blood from stone. (Must be the anaemia!)

Bluedragon profile image
Bluedragon in reply toSchenks

They're generally good on there TBH. You would need to be clear of the supplements for a number of months for the serum test.

MMA - Methylmalonic acid - the one test which will show if you are low in B12 at a cellular level.

Homocysteine is a good indicator of the same - you're looking at a value less than 8 to be good. High levels are also a risk indicator for heart issues and strokes.

The doctor could probably do both of these tests but is unlikely to have heard of them or will do them - I could be massively wrong here lol. Private test is best. I think they could be worth doing even whilst supplementing, a good way to monitor.

St Thomas does them for e.g..

As to how much - well, it is recommended that a professional gives you your first injections in case of allergic reactions - rare but they have happened. After that, you would inject when you feel it is necessary - for e.g., I tend to do about every 4/5 days. Some do daily, others monthly. however you feel. Hydroxylcobalamin is the best to inject as converts to both types of B12 necessary to the body - methyl and adenosyl. The phials are 1ml and are purchased through online pharmacies in Germany generally.

Hope that helps.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toBluedragon

Fantastically helpful - thank you. Do you think it's be worth getting the latter two tests whilst orally supplementing? And can you tell me where to find info on differing starting doses, if there are such a thing, please/

Bluedragon profile image
Bluedragon in reply toSchenks

There aren't different doses, it is a 1ml phial that you draw up into a needle. What differs is how often you SI.

I would say it's worth it.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toBluedragon

Now that makes sense. For the first time. Simples! (Makes sucking sound.)

puncturedbicycle profile image
puncturedbicycle in reply toSchenks

Schenks have you looked at the b12 site b12d.org ? If you contact them they'll get back to you with all the info you need. That's how I got started SI, which has improved or fixed a lot of things incl symptoms I didn't realise were b12-related. x

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply topuncturedbicycle

Oh god, PB - never seen this. Thanks so much - will get cracking on this tomorrow. xxx

puncturedbicycle profile image
puncturedbicycle in reply toSchenks

Great! Be patient with them, they're understaffed. It may take a little time to get back to you. x

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply topuncturedbicycle

Thanks for the heads-up. will let ypou know how I get on. Meanwhile, big XXXs!

puncturedbicycle profile image
puncturedbicycle in reply toSchenks

:-) :-) :-) XXX

paulasue profile image
paulasue in reply toBluedragon

What is TBH ?

Jose651 profile image
Jose651 in reply topaulasue

Hi paulasue,

TBH = To be honest, 🍀

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

Bingo! That's me. I feel like a total freak when I jiitter and my head swims from feeling totally overwhelmed. I guessed it might be I'm not raising enough cortisol. I also read that the stress hormone kicks in but does not recede as it should. Anyway, I am definitely a stress crash puppy too. Am in major crash right now. God it sucks and scary. I think blood sugar factors in with adrenals and lower than ideal thyroid hormone. So much to investigate.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

Nightmare. But my blood sugar has totally stabilised on LDN. So I don't get the hypoglycemic jitters, just the freak-out ones!

So cortisol helps manage stress? And if it's not sufficient, then the jitters are from, say, adrenaline, which stays high?

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

I have it in a book somewhere.....meanwhile this is informative tiredthyroid.com/hc.html

Cant get link to paste with tablet.

helbell profile image
helbell in reply tohelbell

I have ldn in fridge must try it again

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

In the fridge? What, liquid?

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

Yep. I stopped soon into course cos it was so syrupy.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

It's gruesome. Like thick aniseed.

Naomi8 profile image
Naomi8 in reply toSchenks

Do you keep it in the fridge as recommended?Its not so bad if its cold!I use the inversion syringe method.Tip my head back,shoot it to the back of the throat-bingo,its gone

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toNaomi8

Yes. Fridge. Been in there a couple of years. I figured it's so full of sugar it could still be ok. But maybe I'll get new batch.

Never thought of the shoot method...thanks

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

No. no. New batch - the latest concoctions from chemists only last 90 days!

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

Bl***y brilliant - thanks so much. I'm keeping this asterisked until I've got the self-stabbing under control - the adrenals are my final section of the plan to tackle things in turn. This is important information and I'm grateful to you too. x

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

Ooh...Brownie point for the day :)x

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

Just wondering how you are from the stress crash, helbell?

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

Ahh..thanks for asking. I am coming back up a little. Never stayed down this long before. That said it's all got muddled up with worsening hypoglycemia and my doc changed my meds and started me from lowest dose of levo erring on the side of caution despite my under replaced results. Plus I have domestic and work stressors and tend to use up every smidgen of energy...and then some. I have a feeling my adrenals are knackered enough that I am not tolerating ndt any longer, and after 2 good years my dose was getting lower and I getting slowly more hypothyroid which, in turn, was making more adrenally and hypoglycemic...viscous circle. When I saw my doc I blubbed all the way through and he asked why I thought my blood sugar was going low and manifesting as connected with the crashes...well what is it then..I have to keep eating every hour..even half hour, when I'm active? He said he thinks it's more to do with my thyroid and common in hypothyroid's...you don't' say. So, I says..do I just keep eating then? And when I get out of the surgery with my levo script in hand and glimpse myself in the car door window...I have crumbs all round my chops!

I had a goodish day yesterday - thanking god for every active beat on my pegs - and will never learn as paying for it today. The other thing that is happening is sweating like mad on exertion when I in crash mode plus palpitations/speeded up heart rate. My heart never works properly when I'm hypothyroid, anyway.

My spit test arrived today....if I can summon enough up. The last one was a disaster and I started to get saliva production anxiety.

Lots about me...thank you. How about you..details please so I can compare x

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

What a total bl**dy nightmare, helbell. I'm so sorry to hear it. I don't know how much NDT you were on and what you dropped to, but I found that after a while, from trying T3 with Levo, then T3 alone, then NDT alone, that my body doesn't like too much T3 but operates best with some supplementation. I have (so far) ended-up on 75mcg of Levo and 1 grain of NDT. I found that a chunk of the symptoms were either alleviated or lessened and it cleared my head to look at the cluster (of symptoms) afresh.

The next thing on my list of symptoms to tackle was my constant need for carbs, in whatever form. Bread, bread replacements, chocolate, cake. To call it a craving for carbs was like saying a suffocating person craves oxygen. I had to have carbs and I had to have then constantly. The hypoglycaemic attacks were nightmarish - I don't need to tell you what they were like. I'm now wondering how often I walked around with crumbs on my mush! :D (Sorry, but that was funny!)

So the next tranche of symptoms I looked to tackle were those that stemmed from the autoimmune conditions. Which is where the LDN came in. From 2 weeks into taking the LDN I stopped needing carbs as I need air. I wanted them, sure, but the desperation slowed down. Now I can control the genuine urges and, guess what? No more hypos. And I mean no more hypos.

I have my suspicions on how this has happened - I mean, the mechanism, but I'm still thinking it through and asking questions, but what I can say is that if you try the LDN again - and forgive me if I sound like a drug pusher, go low and slow - and dilute!

Do not take the stuff in your fridge - god knows what cultures have grown in it. Only the recent concoctions are patent for 90 days - and yours is around 21 months out of that time span! Start on 0.5 mg and dilute it down to one big gulp. It's not so bad that way, especially if you have some mineral water on hand to wash it down with.

And again, forgive me if I seem to be trying to teach granny to suck eggs but some of us grannies (age not reproductive status) are rather incorrigible. (Blimey, I spelled that correctly! Must be improving.) If you don't rest, you could end up worsening and worsening over time.

By the way, have you ever had a diagnosis?

Don't want to overload you too much - will speak again.

Rest as far as possible, take care of yourself.

x

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

Ah...that sounds great. Will def try the (fresh) LDN again, and release the old stuff and it's inhabitants!

I like your hypo recovery. Mine now comes on in an instant and I feel like I'm going to hit the deck!

Original diagnosis was FM for 18 months subtext mad postmenopausal woman. I guessed it was thyroid from the outset having stumbled on John Lowe right away. 18 months on and my life ebbing away in pain, chronic fatigue, vertigo and a host of other neuro symptoms my thyroid finally gave up the fight. I went from thin to fat and tearful, and begged one more time for a blood test inc the free t's...result. I screamed down the phone to receptionist...'I bloody knew it!' My doc started me on levo and I felt even worse. I went onto ndt and sought out an ndt friendly endo to cover my backside. The endo diagnosed on the same principles as my doc...and wore a syrup. Did not make follow-up appointments and found that my surgery would 'put up' with me on ndt and willing to test ft3 only. The hypo episodes and last recent frightening crash sent me back to my original gp. I said although I was not happy about it I would return to Levo so he could track my progress. He started me on lowest dose and here I am hypo and dropping. I've upped the dose to 50 mcg ahead of time - I was already going hypothermic and crying constantly...weird, sometimes the tears just fell out for no particular reason - and watching symptoms carefully in case my adrenals cant take it. And maybe, just maybe my doc knows what he's looking for.

It's a comfort to see quite a few folks getting positive results with levo and t3/ndt combo which is where I think I'll be heading when all the other is sorted. Paul Robinson says that adding t4 to t3 does not work but that does not compute as ndt contains both.

Anyway, it's such a benefit to know someone is listening and talking back. Thank you x

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

Paul Robinson is an ass - I don't care if I'm not supposed to say that. I saw him, he prescribed T3, I was well for a while on the combo so why he's saying that is beyond me. Perhaps the British Endocrine Society mafia have left a horse's arse in his bed.

What is FM, by the way? It's not female mutilation without the genital bit I'm guessing (but I wouldn't be surprised if it was), but other than that I'm stymied. As with "she wore a syrup" - what's a syrup? But I GET the 'mad pre/post-menopausal woman' syndrome that doctors really need to be cured from. Even the doctors with ovaries seem to be hooked on that diagnosis- perhaps paternal penis-brain there-there-dear off you trot dominance is infectious throughout medical training.

I know that you have been onto this for years and that lots of people on here will have helped you, but have you ever looked at ME? (As in the disease, not yours truly.) I've only just learned about the difference between ME and CFS - the two terms are conflated by medics too ignorant or indolent to give a whatsit about looking into what is effectively a bucket diagnosis - it might cause them too many drains on their £2400 per week salary, I'm guessing. It was given to me by Hillwoman, below, and it has blown me away. I'm not advocating diving in and mashing your head up, but you're not getting much further on and there is something amiss here.

healthunlocked.com/api/redi...

I'm not a doctor but I am a retired medical professional and you are not being best served, to say the least. It looks on paper as though an autoimmune screen would help you - have you ever had one? To look for various autoimmune markers?

And you've upped the dose of Levo to 50mcg? That's a starter dose, if I'm now mistaken. What the heck is your GP doing?

Don't want to overload you, but I'm upset for you.

REST.

x

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

Thank you very much...will dive in.

syrup: Cockney slang, Syrup pf figs =wigs :)

Dictionary is even funnier actually..

British informal

a wig.

"he has been bald for the past twenty years, his shame concealed by a syrup of some opulence"

FM is fibromyalgia, common misdiagnosis along with ME adn CF when hashimoto's is not showing up in the blood tests. Or, TSH reliance without other screening.

Yep...got antibodies

x

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

Lol! Love the dictionary def!

Does that mean that e.g. ME ruled out?

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

Most likely. No meds for it anyway. Thing is, I'm back where I started before thyroid hormone replacement. Some folks are exhausted and tearful, others go into complete meltdown...I'm a meltdowner. I cannot believe how disabling even being mildly (according to my docs interpretation of my tsh) hypothyroid is. It took me 18 months to get over this sh*t and I'm nearly back where I started with a raft of symptoms coming back. ME would not be cleared with thyroid replacement alone, but some experts believe many cases of FMS, ME AND CFS is underlined by thyroid hormone issues. I'm not ruling out a viral or bacterial precursor...I haven't got the money to pursue that and trying to get things like Lyme disease tested on NHS is a joke, and they don't believe in reactive epstein barr...but I will ask. Likewise other autoimmune issues may be at play. Something I will pursue if my final dosing does not improve current symptoms. Desperately seeking t4 on net to raise when my doc hits his tsh plateau which is bound to be too high for me. I have done extremely well on suppressed tsh in the past. Aiming for a tsh of no more than 1.5 on levo. I don't want to raise too fast as there clearly is an adrenal issue which all gets tied up with immune activity, sugar regulation and..well, you know how it goes. x

Naomi8 profile image
Naomi8 in reply toSchenks

My friend relapses when she raises.She can get so ill when she relapses(eg a virus can re-trigger her)she hasn't even the strength to lift a mug of tea.

I am going to try raising again.Am just a bit cautious,I guess.Now I have stabilised my T3 dose to 55mcgs taken in 2 doses in the early hours,I will get a thyroid blood panel done by BH in September.After that will address raising again.

Agree re adrenals.Still a bit confused,need to do more research.Using Youtube at the moment for this information gathering.I know my morning anxiety & the rest of the day's outcome HAS to be adrenal related.As soon as I get stressed,its back.

I have been like this from birth.I know there is a genetic component to this which is also linked to sex hormones.

At present I am finding regular yoga & meditation hugely beneficial.Thank goodness I am now retired-I feel worn out by anxiety & stress at 66.

I am the same re stress.I can detach mentally & emotionally with my mind,but my body still reacts!

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toNaomi8

It's so hard to stop the automatic response. I am getting the morning adrenaline pumping trying not to leap out of bed in case I flop over! I am considering meditation. And I do a have an alpha stim I bought for my mum some years ago. telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/w...

Naomi8 profile image
Naomi8 in reply tohelbell

I have an alpha stim which I used daily when suffering from depression with acute anxiety 2011-2013.Just tried it again-not working!(I have a current-checker which should light up.)believe my daily 20 minutes meditation practise is even better,hence not been using the alpha-stim for a couple of years

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toNaomi8

Must try meditation

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toNaomi8

You paid all that money to find meditation better? I'd ask for a refund!

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

Have you not tried it?

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toNaomi8

This reaction to stress is weird. I'm like an electrified jelly with a brain floating somewhere above thinking, "This is silly! Calm down!", but there is nothing I can do to stop it.

Interesting that you find meditation helpful. I've logged that one for future exploration. Let us know how you get on with tackling the adrenals - I'm saving that one for after B12 excursions!

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toSchenks

It has to be cortisol adrenaline dysfunction along with whatever co hormones work with that.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tohelbell

I agree - I just hope that I can track it, when I am sorted with the B12!

Naomi8 profile image
Naomi8 in reply toSchenks

As a chronic anxiety sufferer I have a major problem with getting overwhelmed easily.Its thanks to the internet that my health is improving.Through TUK mainly,but also STTM et al, I am now taking the right supplements,as well as T3 not T4,plus LDN & am GF.

But there is still so much info out there demanding my attention.I get really anxious if I try to absorb and act on too much stuff.I also set up worry that I am not doing it all now!A good example of this is my oestrogen dominant state & what to do next.I am plagued by procrastination(a vicious cycle that is a coping mechanism for anxiety that doesn't work) as well as mental & physical limitations.

I've come so far,but there is so far to go & I'm 66 already!

As a friend advised years ago,I need to remember to

"Do one thing,then do the next thing"

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toNaomi8

You're not alone Naomi. And the way we live now exasperates things dramatically. Whatever is going on there is a chemical imbalance at play, and if we had tens of thousands to chuck at investigation and treatment...

Good luck x

Naomi8 profile image
Naomi8 in reply tohelbell

Thanks helbell.I will need a full Blue Horizon thyroid panel soon & I really must do another Genova cortisol test soon.I have been advised to have a sex hormone panel done,too.Crumbs!Where does it all end!

helbell profile image
helbell in reply toNaomi8

I was wondering if you are a bit hypo. That can aggravate anxiety something rotten as well as anti body attacks. I stumble over so many posts where it looks like folks are under replaced. I even wonder if some of the evils of Levo are mistaken for abiding by the doctors advice and staying under medicated. I have a cortisol test and thyroid panel waiting to be taken. I worry about producing enough saliva. Dry mouth seems go with this package too. The sex hormone panel looks pricey but I might.

rsae56 profile image
rsae56

Love your description :))

Just a note:

LDN optimal dose is individual and can take trial and error to find. Maybe yours is 3 mg.

I've been on LDN for 8 months now. I'm on 9 mg now. Some increments have taken time (few weeks) to adjust to, but all in all I've had improvement with each rise in dose.

So optimal dose is where you feel the optimal effect!

DonnyJam profile image
DonnyJam in reply torsae56

Wow 9mg. I'm a little like the op, I felt great with every increase although I'm impacient and took very little time to reach 4.5mg as I didn't feel any Ill effects like the insomnia people speak of, I only felt good things. I thought I'd reached the maximum recommended dose at 4.5 and now I feel nothing from it. Do you feel anything from it at 9mg?

rsae56 profile image
rsae56 in reply toDonnyJam

Yes with every increase from 4.5 mg I've got more energy, feel more alert and light in the mood. Definitely all over improvement.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply torsae56

Thank you for the encouragement rsae.

9MG??? Blimey - how tall are you? Only kidding! Still, that's double the recommended optimum by Dr Bihari, even. Are you under the auspices of a doctor or flying solo like me? And did you read that you could go up to that amount? I must have missed that one!

rsae56 profile image
rsae56 in reply toSchenks

I'm under supervision of a 'pain Doctor' in a pain clinic.

In the new LDN book it's written about dosages:

Dosage range:

Commonly 1 capsule of 3 or 4.5 mg, but up to 4 capsules taken morning or night or morning and night.

Dosage range of liquid 1mg/1 ml: 0.5-20mg taken orally.

So 9 mg is not so uncommon ;)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply torsae56

Blimey Charlie! That's totally news to me. I'll have to get the book - is it advertised on the LDN website? I'd like to read it.

So it was the pain doctor that put you on LDN? On the NHS?

rsae56 profile image
rsae56 in reply toSchenks

I asked my GP to get it, but he refused, as he did not know about it. Even I had given him all info/ fact sheets :/

So I asked to be referred to a pain clinic. The doc there had already around 100 patients in LDN treatment and had great results. He had got most of his knowledge about LDN from his patients, so I informed him about the new LDN book, which he immediately ordered from Amazon.

He lets me regulate my dosage as I feel right as I have have quite a good knowledge about it (more than him actually)

Last night I upped the dosage to 10 mg

I'm sure the book is advertised on the LDN websites. I don't remember which but you can find that out.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply torsae56

Good Lord above - how lucky you are to have an enlightened doctor! Whereabouts in the country are you? And can you tell me what the title of the book is, please? I'll be on to Amazon in a flash.

Thanks in advance ...

rsae56 profile image
rsae56 in reply toSchenks

I'm in Denmark. ;)

It's simply called The LDN Book

Edited by

Linda Elsegood

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply torsae56

Already ordered it from our last conversation!

rsae56 profile image
rsae56 in reply toSchenks

It very rich in information 👍🏻

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply torsae56

Denmark? Lucky beggar.

fortunata profile image
fortunata

Oh dear, Schenks! I'm wiping my eyes after reading this and crying and laughing at the same time. The image of the dogs with 'concrete knickers around their goolies' is hilarious. 😂

I tried LDN and felt no benefit from it. It sounds as though your journey with it has been a very different one to mine.

Bless you and have a good Saturday. Xx

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tofortunata

Hi, fortunata - thank you for the reply!

Can I ask, how long did you try LDN for? And at what dose? I'm really interested in it and am thinking, when I can think clearly and sustainably for hours at a time, that I might want to do a bit of asking around about it.

Hope you're having a good weekend. Blessings to you too. xx

fortunata profile image
fortunata in reply toSchenks

Hi Schenks. I got up to the full 4.5 mcgs dose but felt no benefit. However, I was using NDT at the time and, looking back, don't think I was optimally medicated. It would be interesting to try it again now I'm only taking Liothyronine. X

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tofortunata

I'm learning all the time. For example, rsae56 has enlightened me that people take up to 10mg of LDN! She quotes a new book on amazon with the latest info - you might find having a read of her responses above to be rather interesting. Please let me know if you decide to try again - I'd really like to hear of how you fair. X

fortunata profile image
fortunata in reply toSchenks

Which doctor did you contact to get your prescription?

I think I may try straight away. It's over two years since I tried it and, for the life of me, I can't remember the doctor I contacted. 😄

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tofortunata

P.M. me and I'll give you the lowdown.

Bluedragon profile image
Bluedragon

Thank you very much for that- made me giggle. It also made me wonder again about LDN. I think having to get a dr's prescription put me off. Perhaps I should rethink in the future.

I bet your dogs love their sticky smelly walk!

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toBluedragon

The dogs think they are in heaven. Actually, if they keep traipsing the blasted stuff into the house and getting it on the ceiling, they will be!

It's easy to get a Dr's prescription if you wanted to go down that route. Apparently, according to Dickson's chemists in Glasgow, many many GPs up and down Britain prescribe it on the NHS. So they tell me - I'm not sure how much to believe them, but there is one doctor who does very nicely out of private prescriptions - costs £30 for a three-month script from him. However, it is a safe drug at such low doses and very easy to use by oneself. That's what i do now.

Ruthi profile image
Ruthi

I'm so glad to see you back! As I was reading that I was wondering if you had gone up too high!

Its only a little setback! And remember, you are ten years older as well as any irrevocable damage that might have been done - so its unrealistic to expect to get back to how you felt at 30! But if you can get to the point where life is joyful again, that is great.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toRuthi

Ruthi, dear, you are as perceptive as ever!

But I do so love your maths! x

DonnyJam profile image
DonnyJam

I was in the middle of an episode of peaky blinders when I thought I'd glance at my phone to check for messages or email. I'm also taking ldn at 4.5mg so when I saw ldn mentioned at the head of the email I had to read. Peaky blinders is still on pause lol. I couldn't stop reading your post once I started. brilliant post, loved it. 😊

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toDonnyJam

Bl**dy hell! I distracted you from Peaky Blinders? Now that is a serious compliment. thank you - and I'm really happy that you enjoyed reading my mad caper across the page! :-/

JOLLYDOLLY profile image
JOLLYDOLLY

Thank you for the breakfast read Schenks! I love the way you write with a tad note of cynicism. But I have to ask, as I am not very with it today, what is LDN short for?

I didn't go to bed until 1.30 am this morning, after finishing my second large glass of prosecco. I watched the Masterchef final too, munching away on a mars bar and a packet of crisps but not together. It was one of those "sod it" moments! Ironically I didn't enjoy neither snack :)

SilverAvocado profile image
SilverAvocado in reply toJOLLYDOLLY

Low Dose definitely. And then I think Naltroxin? Naproxin? Something like that!

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toSilverAvocado

Naltrexone! :)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toJOLLYDOLLY

Sorry, LDN = Low Dose Naltrexone. Naltrexone originally was used to wean addicts off heroin and alcohol, but that was at doses of 50mg and above. This is very low dosing and it has a regulatory effect on the immune system.

Sad you didn't enjoy your snacks but I get exactly what you mean. I'm very careful with my 'freestyle' evenings now. I only get in good stuff or make my own - last week I polished off four wheat-free chocolate muffins (I'd made a tray of 15, so was doing well! Actually, they were really fairy cakes - smaller, so you can have more!). I had a Mars Bar the other week and like most other chocolate bars these days, such as the Aero mousse bar as opposed to old Aero (yes, I am an expert on Aeros) it just tasted of synthetic crap that was so artificially sweet it burned my tongue. Pure sh .... er, rubbish.

You've got to get your freestyle noshing right or it just won't work!

JOLLYDOLLY profile image
JOLLYDOLLY in reply toSchenks

You sure have with the snacks lol. I do enjoy the new snicker bar with hazelnuts but they are not really big enough lol ha ha ;) I don't buy the double bars as I do not trust myself lol. I also love the bounty bars although I have found the own brand versions yummy but to Moorish. I am going on about chocolate but I prefer savoury every time - I am a self confessed nibbler! especially when I am stressed. I do not consider myself greedy, but I do nibble. Aero's I like, especially mint but not as much as I used to.

Thanks for explaining the LDN - I am not good with abbreviations or names and I have made some of our friends titter in the nicest possible way, at my questions lol ;)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toJOLLYDOLLY

I've now tried Snickers. They are nice. I blame you! ;)

JOLLYDOLLY profile image
JOLLYDOLLY in reply toSchenks

Who me?? I am innocent of all charges ;) But they are nice aren't they? :)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toJOLLYDOLLY

I would never have known but for you! :) And, yes they are! Dammit. :)

JOLLYDOLLY profile image
JOLLYDOLLY in reply toSchenks

I try to provide all the relevant information I can, on a need to know basis and I thought everyone needed to know about this delicious treat, so enjoy! ;) ;) :) :) :) :)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toJOLLYDOLLY

LOL! :D

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toJOLLYDOLLY

P.S. Mint Aeros aren't really Aeros - they are impostors! They have escaped from the After Eight factory and are incognito, to tempt those who restrict After Eights to Christmas only. You have been warned! ;)

Oh, by the way, just to enhance your evil strategy of causing havoc in the dieting world, which Bounty Bar own brand are you talking about (for research purposes only ...)?

JOLLYDOLLY profile image
JOLLYDOLLY in reply toSchenks

Not sure I should be letting this privilege information out BUT....seeing it is you. ;) I like the Tesco own because they taste like those little toasted coconut sweets you can buy. But ASDA's version tastes like the real thing! They were on offer (not sure now) £1 per bag of between 11-14 portions. However, if you are calorie counting etc they are quite high but delicious ;)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toJOLLYDOLLY

How my mouth loves you! How my hips hate you! You have now created a chocolate=based schizophrenia - are you happy? :)

JOLLYDOLLY profile image
JOLLYDOLLY in reply toSchenks

Information purposes only ;) Hope you enjoy but do not complain to me about your hips lol, I have signed a disclaimer ;)

Ruthi profile image
Ruthi in reply toJOLLYDOLLY

Own brand Bounty bars? Where? Do they do plain?

The only Mars Bars I like are the special edition ones that come out every few years - plain choc and nougat!

But, says she sadly, I have forsworn sugar........

JOLLYDOLLY profile image
JOLLYDOLLY in reply toRuthi

Sadly Ruthi, they are all milk. They do their own mar bars though, which are quite nice. ;)

SilverAvocado profile image
SilverAvocado

Hehe, Schenks, that was brilliant. I also get some of these funny little set backs as I get better. Once my adrenals started improving I suddenly got exhausted - but real tired, that I could rest out of, rather than my body just being weak and useless.

Recently as I've got close to my proper dose of NDT I've been falling over things all the time. I think it's because I've got the energy to stand up quickly, or motor around the house, but I forget I still don't have the balance for it! Went head over heels off the bed yesterday morning, crashing into my chest of drawers. Haven't moved so fast in years ;)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toSilverAvocado

Thank you. x Did you hurt yourself, you mad thing? What dose of NDT are you on so far, Silver? And did you specifically treat your adrenals with anything or have they improved because of the NDT?

SilverAvocado profile image
SilverAvocado in reply toSchenks

Luckily only my pride has been wounded so far! It's been close calls on a few mugs and bottles of smellies ;)

I' m on 2.5 grains right now. My last blood test (at 2.25) the freeT3 was in the middle of the range and TSH just under 1, so I'm getting close. It's taken me since November last year to get it up to this dosage. I've gone slow because I may have been overdosed in the past, I was expecting to settle on a low dose. I guess between 2 and 3 grains is still at the low end.

I took Nutri-Adrenal, DHEA, and a few other things. Had a definite improvement at one point. I've ended up a bit confused with the whole thing,and not thought about them for a while. Ihave plans to do another 24hr saliva test and see the ThyroidUK doctor (Alicia something... I'm terrible with remembering words ;).) when things settle down a bit.

Treepie profile image
Treepie

You clearly know your birds,please do not let your dogs disturb their feeding. Happens all the time on the reservoirs close to me by ignorant owners when migratory birds are feeding up and or resting. To point it out often leads to a torrent of abuse.

Pinkpeony profile image
Pinkpeony

Schenks , I don't know whether to commiserate or congratulate . You are so droll , I hope now your beautiful cabinet is done you will start on your book .

😀 Pp

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toPinkpeony

You are,as always, a doll. Thank you.

nightingale-56 profile image
nightingale-56

Your writing is as good as your artwork Schenks. Loved it.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply tonightingale-56

Thanks, jbee. xx

Schenks profile image
Schenks

OM Goodness! I've finally surfaced from a total fug, switched on my phone and found all your wonderful replies. I'm a bit tottery still but will reply to each of you when I feel as though I can sit upright for long enough! Meanwhile, thank you for taking the to read and answer my post. Got to go - smallest room calling. Again.

Hillwoman profile image
Hillwoman

Lovely post, thoroughly enjoyed reading it. The LDN in the title caught my attention. I started at 3 mg a year ago. It made my sleep even worse - the only side effect - so I just switched to a morning dose instead. After 3 months I went straight up to 4.5 mg, where I will stay. LDN hasn't improved the conditions I hoped it would help, but the one major, unexpected benefit has been that it stopped early rheumatoid arthritis in its tracks. I still have the odd flare-up, but I can use my hands again, without pain and with reduced stiffness. For this I am very grateful.

PS I do have some sympathy with Treepie's comment - I'm a 'birder' too. :-)

xx

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toHillwoman

Hi, Hillwoman, and thank you for your reply. Wow - 3mg is a very high dose to start on. I wonder if that contributed to the sleep problems? Mind you, I have read that it's not uncommon, sleep-wise.

That it has stopped the rheumatoid arthritis in its tracks is b***dy amazing! What conditions are you still suffering from that it hasn't helped, may I ask?

Hillwoman profile image
Hillwoman in reply toSchenks

Well, I'm still hypothyroid (can't seem to get the meds right yet), I have very low cortisol and DHEA, pernicious anaemia with associated neuropathy and pancreatic exocrine insufficiency. I also had a diagnosis of ME (not CFS - the doc who diagnosed me did so on the basis of persisent immune response to viral proteins). Oh, and obstructive apnoea. I'm not doing very well, but at least I don't have to contend with RA, apart from the odd brief flare. :-)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toHillwoman

You've a lot on your plate. To be so hypo - no wonder you had a big response to 3mg - we hypos are supposed to start on 0.5mg and go up in 0.5mg doses no sooner than every 2 weeks.

Do you inject B12? And do you supplement with adrenal support?

By the way, ME and CFS are really the same thing, I am informed; the ME/CFS sites have amalgamated the two nomenclatures because they share the same cluster symptoms as well as the satellite clusters which can differ slightly.

Hillwoman profile image
Hillwoman in reply toSchenks

Sorry about the delay... I do have to inject B12, because my treatment was withdrawn, even though it is supposed to be for life with a PA diagnosis. I take pregnenolone, hydrocortisone and sometimes add in NAX for the adrenal problem. It's being supervised by two different doctors, both in the private sector - I stood no chance in the NHS.

As for the difference between ME and CFS, the doc who diagnosed me was one of the few researchers in this country up until his retirement in 2014. He was a member of the Newcastle Group, and he was adamant about the difference between the two conditions. The rest of the medical profession has particular reasons for eliding the two terms, but that's another story. My own doc considered CFS to be a consequence of many different, unrelated conditions. But he described ME as the neurologic consequence of an abnormal immune response to virus infection, usually Coxsackie B, though other enteroviruses were also studied by the Newcastle Group.

Oh, I forgot the poisoning by agricultural chemicals in my list of woes - organochlorines and organophosphates! It all seems quite ridiculous sometimes. :-)

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toHillwoman

Good Lord above and to all sides! What detective work you've had to undertake. How long have you been ill? And how in the heck did you find out about the pesticides?

I've never seen that info about the conflation of ME and CFS. Or the Newcastle group. Can you please signpost me to where I might read of the differences? It will make for interesting discussion with one of my consultants - a brilliant as well as lovely man, who still only is suggesting one injection of B12 once a month for 3 months! (You just can't get the staff!) My discussion with him so far is that the ME/CFS (sic) is a cluster of symptoms, as designated by the very title in the CFS bit, the core cluster of which has to be present for a diagnosis - as you know - but the satellite clusters of which are idiosyncratic. He is supportive of my working through each of the clusters of my own syndrome, trying to address the underlying causes in turn.

Hence the LDN - for the symptoms that are clearly autoimmune related - which is why I am stunned to read your quoting your doctor as explaining that in his opinion ME is consequential to an abnormal response to a viral infection (I've never had Coxsackie, as far as I'm aware, but was seriously ill with infectious mononucleosis). The other consultant (the dreaded endo) asserts that I have an autoimmune complex that manifested at first as Grave's, but has gone on to heaven knows what else.

And I have to admire you on the steroid front. Every time I mention them the doctors grow pale and start babbling about adrenal shutdown and how fast I'll die! I may come back to you to pick your brains on that one in time, if that'd be ok. :O

Hillwoman profile image
Hillwoman in reply toSchenks

By all means come back to me about adrenals, though I wouldn't claim to be an expert. I've got to the stage of just throwing everything at the buggers to make them work - under occasional supervision, I hasten to add.

As for LDN, ME, CFS, etc. it's all horribly complicated for my tired old brain. What you said about clusters of symptoms jogged a memory of my old doc's research from a few years ago which I think found 5 groups of CFS sufferers with distinct aetiologies which all led to the same consequence. The N'cle Group (later known as The John Richardson Research Group) was wound up a few years ago after Dr R's death and the eventual retirement in 2014 of the other members. My doc was Irving Spurr. You may find some references to their work in Google Scholar.

I took part in some of it. One research area was brain hypoperfusion, with SPET scans performed at what used to be the Middlesex Hosp. That research was carried out with Dr Durval Campos Costa. It produced results unpopular with the mainstream profession (obvious brain lesions in ME, therefore not psychiatric) and so it died a death. Dr Costa went back to his native Madrid, where his career in neuroscience has flourished. His work in the UK continues to gather dust.

I've been ill most of my life - undiagnosed hypo-T from birth, but I was reasonably well until 13/14, just sleepy and heavy and very susceptible to infection. Then, abnormal reaction to exotic vaccinations, enteroviral infection leading eventually to appendix removal. Family autoimmunity kicked in - undiagnosed Hashi's and PA (had to wait many years for dx). Poisonings also around this time - domestic and farm exposure. It's all v v complicated and I struggle to remember all the details w/o my notes, as I'm now 51! Btw, it was my doc with the N'cle Group who got me tested for toxins at Biolab.

You sound as if you have a very good consultant - a rarity, in fact.

Hillwoman profile image
Hillwoman in reply toHillwoman

One good reference to ME is the Hummingsbirds site:

hfme.org/

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toHillwoman

Time-lapse response - brain was too full before: thank you for the link - it is extremely interesting. x

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toHillwoman

Update - the link is terrifying. It makes sense and I can recognise exactly when my health nose-dived; from the second Hep C (or Hep B - can't fully recall) inoculation I was forced to have to work for the NHS. If I'm repeating myself, forgive me. But this is scary stuff. I'm taking rest FAR more seriously now.

Hillwoman profile image
Hillwoman in reply toSchenks

Yes, it has taken me many years to take the idea of rest as seriously as I should have done.

Another of the cliffs I fell off, and forgot to mention, was adult chicken pox - very nasty. Re. vaccination: almost no-one in the medical profession takes adverse responses seriously. Have a look at Doctoring Data by Malcolm Kendrick. He has some interesting things to say about many subjects, including vaccination, mitochondrial function (mine is v v poor) and the travails of Dr Sarah Myhill and her ME&CFS treatment. He doesn't necessarily connect them the way we are doing, but still.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toHillwoman

Thank you, friend - this is vital.

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toHillwoman

What a horrible road trip you've been on. Must have been a body blow to lose the doctors who were so brilliant. And what a loss to the community. Thanks for your reply HW - it's cost a lot in energy. I won't pester you, but one thing has pinged out at me - all this for me went totally downhill when, in 2001 or so, I was forced to have Hep B inoculations to work in the NHS! I felt rough on the first one but dead ill at the second. The bar stewards didn't enforce the third one, so in truth I needn't have had any. I've just twigged the timescale from your answer about exotic vaccinations. I never operated at what should have been my optimum before that but the decline afterwards was like a tipping-off a ski-jump slope.

As for the consultant - I can honestly say he's a one-off. Hope he doesn't disappear.

Hillwoman profile image
Hillwoman in reply toSchenks

Don't worry about pestering me, Schenks. I'm happy to answer Qs - it just might take a little while to respond.

Yes, my life is a pretty inactive one, as you can imagine. I keep plugging away and hoping that something, someday, will work. I can count my blessings though - supportive husband, garden with a view, nice part of the world to live in (despite the dodgy weather), interesting wildlife. It's not all bad. :-)

Cariad-y-Mor profile image
Cariad-y-Mor

Schenks Giggle giggle - what an absolutely brilliant post. Wonderful therapy on a Sunday afternoon. More please. ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺

Schenks profile image
Schenks in reply toCariad-y-Mor

(((((((( bernie ))))))))) :D

Treepie profile image
Treepie

Not noticed any annoyance but from you.

Treepie profile image
Treepie

True.

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