Looking forward to Vit D and B12 injections on Friday has anyone else benefitted from these? I'm not sure what to expect but very hopeful of great things
Vit D and B12: Looking forward to Vit D and B1... - Thyroid UK
Vit D and B12
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Steni
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Here are some views on "vitamin D" you may like to consider carefully:
a) answers.com/Q/Is_vitamin_d_... ,
b) drmcdougall.com/2015/03/31/... and,
c) precisionnutrition.com/stop...
These are advising caution on supplementing with the prohormone "vitamin D", may be worth considering and be helpful in specific cases, at least. The for-supplementation views on this prohormone are rather well established now.
Others who have looked more into B12 may wish to comment on that.
Best wishes,
Thank you.
in reply to Steni
If you have low vit D then it is essential to supplement with D3 up to a decent level. That is now standard medical practice. Cannell's vitamin d council site gives full background with research paper. A neighbour suffered for years woth overwhelming fatigue and sadness, finally the gp found her D was low, those symptoms vanished. I know via a friend of a group of Asian women, all veiled to some degree, who also discovered they were D deficient and found a multitude of symptoms went.
There is massive D deficiency prevalence in Britain, and it is essential to keep flagging that fact.
Sid_Arthur in reply to
Aspmama,
a) "If you have low vit D then it is essential to supplement with D3 up to a decent level" - in EVERY case, no matter what ? ? ? No exceptions ABSOLUTELY whatsoever ? ? ?
b) "That is now standard medical practice." - yes it is (sadly ? !). Is it CORRECT though ( - or IN FACT simplistic) ? ? ?
If so, . . . . . why is EVERYONE increasing, OR trying to increase blood levels NOT benefitting ( - as is the evidence) ? ? ?
If not, . . . . . which differentiating factors, that are NOT being considered COULD reasonably be ? ? ?
c) "There is massive D deficiency prevalence in Britain . . . " - as measured HOW ? Is this catching those who aren't "actually deficient" and don't benefit from increasing levels, due to a FLAWED, incomplete assessment approach ? ? ?
Will be pleased to have your considered views.
I have NO issues with those actually BENEFITTING from more sun exposure OR ( - as distant second) supplementing for a period. However, others who clearly are NOT in this category ARE 'notionally' (?) being found to be, . . . . . are being advised INCORRECTLY . . . . and, in the LONGER TERM, if not immediately, are being harmed . . . . or made worse.
It would seem the "now standard medical practice" FAILS this sub-group of (often already ill) people.
Is it NOT "essential to keep flagging that fact" ? ? ? It does appear to be POORLY recognised.
S.A.
;~)x
Thanks for the link to that 2010 BMJ paper !
One important sentence in the abstract is:
" In recent years, however, non-musculoskeletal conditions—including cancer, metabolic syndrome, infectious and autoimmune disorders—have also been found to be associated with low vitamin D levels.1"
We better NOTE it says "found to be associated with" . . . . . AND not "caused by" low vitamin D.
Evidence available PRIOR to 2010, that I know of in the public domain reasonably demonstrates that in a range of SPECIFIC scenarios, . . . . . . the low "vit D" level is the RESULT of the disease process ( - obviously absent in the healthy) . . . . . and NOT the cause of it. Any evidence contracting this viewpoint would be most appreciated !
[Wouldn't mind seeing the whole of that paper, but can't be bovvered right now to sign up for a free trial again !]
S.A.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...
gov.uk/government/consultat...
Thanks again, Linlow ! ;~)
The first link, boldly does assert:
"Current research indicates vitamin D deficiency plays a role in causing seventeen varieties of different cancers as well as heart disease, stroke, autoimmune diseases, birth defects, and periodontal disease.(4)" [ - again a 2010 paper].
But I'm afraid KNOWN biochemistry from that time would REFUTE that bold claim: the lower 25(OH)D levels found in the sufferers of a range of conditions is clearly the RESULT of the illness process, . . . . . and NOT its cause, it has been said. The biochemistry of WHY this would be the case doesn't not appear to be deniable.
I'm personally inclined to be guided by the latter, . . . . from the evidence I've seen. And you ?
And contents of the 2nd link - equally questionable, . . . . . and probably wrong, too ? ? ?
S.A.
It has also been said that the moon is made of cheese.
There is also the question of which came first - the chicken or the egg?
Personally, since you ask, I am much more inclined to view the issue from a much wider angle than the narrow field of any single science. It is dangerous to be tunnel visioned as years of following such advice has proven - and now seen on the degenerating health of nations around the globe.
On the wider view, Linlow, as I see it, TWO opposing camps of views are in existence.
Briefly ( - and somewhat 'biasedly' (?), according to the available evidence):
a) that which measures calcidiol levels as low, assumes illness is caused by this, ( - it is in rickets !), . . . . but which HARMS the sub-group to which this assumption does NOT apply, . . . . . and,
b) the other, which recognises that for a specific sub-group, the lowered calcidiol levels are the RESULT of the disease process . . . . . . and the one which is reporting cases of chronic illnesses are eventually being resolved ( - with this devised protocol to address the underlying known "dysfunction").
Which group is right all/most the time ? Decide for yourself ! (I have ! ;~) )
S.A.
by which argument all those sailors of old were vitamin c deficient because of being riddled with scurvy rather than succumbing to scurvy because the ship's master forgot to stock up on lemons.
Surely the lemons would have prevented the deficiency ? And prevented the scurvy as a result ?
Ahhhh, are you comparing apples with pears ? ? ? Or oranges with lemons ? ? ? ;~)
Do feel its one IMPORTANT point tho' !
The medics ( - it has been argued) are getting confused somewhat over this by comparing "vitamins" with a prohormone ( - which the historically mis-named "vit D" is said to be !). Lack of vitamin C is accepted to be the CAUSE of scurvy, . . . . and lack of "vitamin D" the cause of rickets and osteomalacia ( - 'perhaps' for the latter ?).
However, from that it does NOT follow scientifically that ALL cases of low(er) calcidiol are the CAUSE of whichever disease state is seen in anyone case . . . . says the available evidence.
S.A.
As interesting as the subject may be it is a long way from the original point of Steni's post. If you want to continue to discuss the subject why not open your own post and invite opinion?
I don't see how a separate thread on the composition of the moon, or the aetiology of chicken & eggs, would be further appropriate on any healthunlocked forum . . . . . . but perhaps, all that's required on those has now been said ? ? ?
Oh, . . . . it was Buzz Aldrin . . . . ( - 'only !') the 2nd man on the moon !
But we 'know' ( - don't we ?) that the moon isn't made of cheese . . . . . and Armstrong and . . . . . (what's his name ?) . . . . . didn't encounter the Clangers ! [Doesn't mean they weren't hiding ! ;~) ]
Also, scientifically, the egg and chicken has BEEN conclusively answered by evidence: eggs existed LONG b4 chickens evolved (into being chickens !).
The chicken & egg CONCEPT does apply here tho': are the low calcidiol levels CAUSING the (usually chronic) condition . . . . or a RESULT of it. Most medics don't EVEN consider this CRUCIAL question . . . . to the DETRIMENT of a sub-group of their service users, . . . . . it seems.
Answers by reply, on a Postcard, . . . or other ? ? ?
S.A.
in reply to Steni
McDougall is talking about impact on bones. Very few would agree with his view that deficient patients should not be treated, and in pregnant patients or women of childbearing age such a path would lead to babies being born with rickets, and perhaps more. In my view, if he is talking about the general population, he would be open to a malpractice suit if he took this line.
in reply to
I can't access the answers.com link but I would not regard it as a reliable place to find medical information. Sid Arthur is a diabetes sufferer posting apparently from India, it is kind of him to do so, but he may be unaware of the massive deficiencies found at our latitude, and he may also be unaware of the co morbidity of nutrient absorbtion problems in hypothyroidism.
Sid_Arthur in reply to
Whether Sid A. "is a diabetes sufferer" and whether he is "posting apparently from India" are, (he might suggest . . . . erm, unhelpful, . . . . as well as incorrect (?) ) distractive issues.
If he may assist you ( - in spite of irrelevant conjectures about his location and health status, which are not actually posted in the public domain !), he might further say:
a) lower calcidiol levels are being more frequently measured in the UK (as well as other) population(s), . . . . and,
b) the ASSUMPTION that lower calcidiol levels can (in the main) BE taken to mean they are the CAUSE of the chronic condition seen in any one particular case ( - in a range of conditions, often inflammation-causing) is NOT without its CONSIDERABLE issues . . . . . and foreseeable harms. The known biochemistry FAILS to support such assumed or conjectured CAUSATION.
You may like to explore the known biochemistry explaining why in a range of illnesses, the calcidiol levels are REDUCED by the under-lying biological/immunological response, . . . about which there seems little debate, from what I can see !
Kind regards,
S.A.
[Please stick to the subject of the topic, as far as possible. Pointing to the inappropriateness/unsuitability of the 'person' making the comments, . . . . . . is, one might suggest, a poor strategy. It sadly points to a 'prejudicial view' in legal and moral terms. I shall be happy to edit this comment, if you will kindly consider editing yours ! 11/5/2016].
Sid_Arthur in reply to
The text of the answers.com link ( - which I could assess, via the above link) is:
"Is vitamin d a steroid?"
"Answered by The WikiAnswers® Community
Making the world better, one answer at a time."
"YES. Vitamin D is a "secosteroid" which means a part of it is converted to a steroid by the body.
If you have any kind of underlying disease process involving a suspected bacteria/pathogen such as Lyme, CFS, MS, Fibro, and others DO NOT TAKE D.
It will make you feel better initially (as all steroids do) but will allow the bacteria/pathogen to PROLIFERATE!
This will increase your bacterial load and ultimately make you sicker! There are plenty of healthy people with low d.
The action of D is corollary, not causative as current pop medicine would have you believe. There is a lot of ignorance out there.
The D receptor is actually blocked or down regulated by the body if you have an underlying disease process going on. This is the your system's way of PROTECTING itself from increased inflammation.
The bacterial load must be eliminated before the d receptor will work properly again. People are not recognizing the steroid action of D.
If you go to ILADS.COM and punch in steroid it will tell you NOT TO TAKE THEM.
However they do not realize that D is A STEROID. Hope this helps!"
If the above opinion is flawed or wrong, I would be interested in seeing the evidence supporting that. Does it exist ?
I think this is again a case of 'everyone responds a bit differently'. Supplemented with D for a long time to help my arthritis/bones and doc asked me to lower it because blood test number was 98 (But I felt very good!). Am taking less for 3 years, number is now 60's and fibro pain/effects are worse. Could be coincidence. In any case, D didn't hurt me and I'm sorely tempted to up the dose &/or stand in the sun for half an hour every day ;-).
We seem to be poor at working out which cases (with low calcidiol) will benefit from supplementation, . . . . and which cases will not, even though to the issues to differentiate between these two groups are well known and documented ( -but largely unrecognised in the UK, as elsewhere).
What makes matters MUCH worse, with "vit D" is the known and reported "temporary palliative effect" where those who will not benefit from supplementation initially actually FEEL better with it ! ( Sadly, this important, observable effect is not recognised in the main either !)
I hope my reply appears to all the fascinating contributors to my initial comment, I am LOVING the debate, wonderful and I'm in awe of the level of knowledge shared, seems no one is suffering any cognitiive dysfunction on here👏👏👏👏
Have recently amended my original reply, . . . and added a further link.
Do become familiar with the known & described term "temporary palliative effect" of vit D which is not being recognised still !
Why on earth would a doctor ask you to lower your dose of something you were benefitting from? I don't understand ??
At the upper limit of what is recommended as safe on the blood test range. There are dangers of taking and having too much vitamin D in one's body. So I backed it off a little (still above average per last test). I don't 'just do what a doctor says' because I've been lucky enough to find partners. In this case, I understood why he made the suggestion and decided to follow it. some years later, I'm reconsidering it ;-).
I have spinal stenosis caused by claudication - so yes B12 weekly injections have helped me a great deal. Do you have PA ? - or was your B12 result just low ? I take VitD capsules in spite of the websites telling you VitD is not good for TH1 dominant people 
You may wish to research Folate v Folic Acid in your supplements. Methylfolate is natural and the FA is synthetic .....
Maybe have a banana after the B12 injection to maintain potassium levels. Also take a GOOD B Complex to keep all the B's in balance. VitD - also take VitK2 to maintain levels of calcium in the blood. D3 encourages an improved calcium uptake from food and you do not need calcium lingering within the arterial system - K2 directs it to the bones.
Thank you, how do you get to be so knowledgable!
... reading 
and experiencing lots of poorliness ! Click onto my name and have a read of my Profile - the shortened version !
Do you have PA ?
You may find it useful to go through a checklist of symptoms of B12 and identify the ones that seem relevant so you can monitor what is going on. there is a lot of overlap with symptoms of thyroid - and vitamin D deficiency but it may give you some idea
pernicious-anaemia-society....
Because B12 affects the immune system it can kick it into apparent overdrive so unfortunately some people actually feel a bit worse before they feel better ... and there can be a period when aches and pains all seem much worse as well.
However, also true that some people don't notice much for several months. B12 is just something where responses vary a lot from individual to individual
Hello Marz,
I hadn't heard about the Vit K2 to push calcium to bones. I take high doses of Vit D !0,000 capsules twice a week and to reduce the excess calcium I take extra Yoghurt. That keeps the calcium to an acceptable level.
Also have B12 injection every 3months. Still don't feel right though.
Currently waiting for referral to Rheumatologist - can't spell it and the dictionary can't find it - for arthritis pain in feet and other places, as well as lack of energy and pain whenever I try to be active.
What a life......
The K2 and D3 supplementation is posted on this forum on a regular basis. I cannot see how eating extra yogurt reduces your calcium ?? If you have PA with neurological symptoms then 3-monthly injections may well not be enough and you should have them more often.
How are your thyroid levels ? Poor you - pain is horrid and debilitating
I have heard that idea bandied around but it is one of those 'old wives tales'. Some yogurts (but by no means all) are actually now augmented with vitamin k2 to fulfil the 'prophecy' but a better source is kefir. There are, of course, other dietary sources and some d3 tablets contain the appropriate amount of k2.
... oh was not aware of the K2 in yogurts ! Living in Crete and eating sheeps yogurt I am not privvy to all these fancy new techniques ! Must get up to speed !
EDIT I'm jealous- I wish I had easy access to sheep yogurts et al. Sheep's milk contains a2 beta casein and is much better for health
Your profile says UK... you can buy sheep yogurt in UK supermarkets. It is more expensive though.
Thanks RedApple I have seen the yogurt but not in any outlets in my locale. Supermarkets seem to be a law unto themselves when deciding what they will market to any particular area and the extent of what is available elsewhere is amazing. I have even looked stuff up online, been told that I can get it locally but when I get down to the shop find that reality is nothing of the sort. They seem to think that we are all neanderthals around here.
I used to have access to raw sheep milk from a local farm but that was a lot of years ago now. I have since tried the carton sheep & goat milks but they don't give the same results - probably down to the pasteurisation
Grow your own... you'd get some fleece to spin for your winter woolies, and a built in grass trimmer too 
I know, not really a viable solution for most of us!
Steni, or anyone else that is b12 deficient (or suspects they are), have a look at the b12 deficiency organisation website, it has some very useful information. 🙂
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