Vitamin D ok so I'm low but do I buy D2 or D3 and how much?

[olliedog1]

I've hashimotos, B12 def and folate def

[jimh111]

Vitamin D goes through a number of stages before the active form (D4). So it's best to buy D3 and the highest dose for the least cost but do not exceed the RDA for more than a few weeks. However, why are you thinking of buying vitamin D now? There's lots of sunshine around and it's the best way provided you do take care not to burn.

[Clutter]

How low is your vitD, Olliedog? You should buy D3 and softgel caps are better than tablets. VitD is best taken with food as it needs some fat for absorption.

[sezzy]

Hi d3 is thought to be better so go for that as for dose im not sure as youd need to state your vitamin d level .

[Marz]

grassrootshealth.com shows you how to dose according to your D results. Ensure you take note of the measurement of your result - if nmol then convert to ng by dividing by 2.5...

Start low and slow....

[helvella Administrator]

Have a look at the booklet available for download (for free) linked from this post:

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu....

Rod

[olliedog1]

Thanks everyone.

I was diagnosed by gp with low vit d, telephone call - saying buy OTC ... I had just returned from 2 weeks in Egypt so was bit surprised.

I awake with aching knees. I've hashimotos and low folate and PA so this was discovered as a result of bloods check.

I think I've read that vit d tablets can interfere with thyroid meds?

[mistydog in reply to olliedog1]

You need to leave 4 hrs between taking thyroid meds and supplements.

[Hidden]

Get plenty of sunshine for vit D, otherwise buy D3 supplements, not D2. Dlux oral spray, available in Holland and Barret, is good. Get the 3000iu one. It can take a while for vit D levels to recover. If you were very deficient before going to Egypt it may not have been enough to recover your levels. Also the darker your skin the more sun exposure you need to produce vit D.

As for your low folate, whatever you do don't take folic acid, even if your GP tells you to. Folic acid is not good for anyone and actually starves the body of real folate (folic acid is the synthetic version of folate). Look for hydroxocobalamin or adenosylcobalamin supplements. Much more expensive but worth it. Don't get cyanocobalamin either, it's useless. Really the best thing to do is eat loads of raw leafy greens, they are highest in folate. Stick to non-brassica types though, like lettuce, spinach, watercress, lambs lettuce. The brassica family of plants (kale, broccoli, caluiflower, rocket etc) can aggravate a weak thryroid if not well cooked. And when you eat cooked greens there is not much folate left. So raw is best, summer salads are the thing! Hope that helps.

For B12 meat (grass-fed, pastured, organic), wild fish and fermented foods are the best. Otherwise supplements are widely available. Food based supplements like Mega Food are really good. They are very well absorbed because they come from food. However, if you have a problem with any part of the B12 absorption process (of which there are many links in the chain) you will not benefit from supplements. B12 injections are possible but not sure how you'd get them on the NHS. A bit of research on B12 and its absorption is advisable because it's a very complex process.

[lola1956 in reply to Hidden]

What? Folic acid is not good for us? Been recommended on here to take ..are you sure ?

[Heloise in reply to lola1956]

I've read the same, it can build up and be toxic. I think you can take 200 mg.

[lola1956 in reply to Heloise]

Oh dear I'm on 400 mcg.

[lola1956 in reply to Heloise]

You mean mcg not mg ? Yes?

[Mrs_Somerset in reply to lola1956]

Hi Lola1956,

Finally found the link I was looking for - please see this link, it has a simple ( i.e. I can understand it ) explanation fo the difference between folic acid and folate and why folic acid is artificial and not good for you.

Hope this helps:

chriskresser.com/folate-vs-...

Big HUgs,

M

[lola1956 in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Hi Mrs s . Thank you a very interesting and easy to understand read.i have today ordered the correct vitamin folate exactly as you said previously. I threw out the folic acid immediately I read about it on here .This is why this site is so good even with brain fog I'm learning every day. Thanks Mrs s for taking the time to send me this link ..big hugs lola

[Mrs_Somerset in reply to lola1956]

Hi Lola1956,

There is a BIG difference between Folic Acid and Folate.

Folic Acid is an artificially manufactured substance whish is pooly absorbed by the body and the unabsorbed folic acid builds up in your system leading to many health issues including neurological symptoms and even some cancers.

L-5-MTHF (which is tetrahydrofolate) is what your body uses, you can buy this as a suppliment - look for MTHF but please ensure it wither has an "L" or a "6s" in front or it will be no good, in fact it will do you harm.

The prevalence of dosing pregnant women with folic acid to reduce neural tube birth defects came about in a study, however they since then realised that folic acid is rarely tolerated by people - 80% of people cannot convert the artificial folic acid, yet to this day they persist in putting it in all manner of foods.

People with autoimmunedisorders are particularly sensitive to the folic acid and the raised levels of unabsorbed folic acid causes a great deal of suffering, from increased pain, nausea, blaoting, leaking gut, IBS, migranes, dizzyness, all the way to blocking hte production of neurotransitters causing depression, etc.

There are a lot of good articles on this, do feel free to look into it further before self medicating I would always advise thourough research. Unfortunately my doctor is one of the unhelpful ones, so I have had to do a lot of research and the lovely people here on healthunlocked and other forums have helped me so much, that when I went to see my private doctor he was rather impressed with how much I knew!

I would of course rather know nothing and trust in the GP's, but alas that has led me to have suffered with undiagnosed PA and other items for years.

Hoe this is helpful,

Big Hugs,

M

[lola1956 in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Thanks for your very detailed information ..I will get these tommorow. I thought I had read to take folic acid. Only been taking a couple of months but have been dizzy and depressed but maybe not connected .I do try to research as much as possible but my brain does not retain much information anymore

[Mrs_Somerset in reply to lola1956]

I know what you mean

I was diagnosed whit pernicious anemia in feb, but actually had B12 deficiency since at least 2011 - doc forgot to do anything about it! - and some days I am lucky if I remember my own name

I hope you can get your levels sorted, as I said, I am on a steep learning curve myself and it is only thanks to the guys on healthunlocked and the associated societies that I am still alive and kicking today.

Big Hugs,

M

[lola1956 in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Big hugs to you too Mrs Somerset

[Heloise in reply to lola1956]

I like Dr. Barron and here is a list of articles about folic acid you could skim.

I couldn't remember if it was mcg or mg since I don't take it but 200 was what I recalled.

jonbarron.org/search/google...

[lola1956 in reply to Heloise]

Thanks I will have a look

[ThyroidThora in reply to Hidden]

Hiya,

Vitamin B12 injections are free on the NHS is your GP or specialist will sanction their use. Unfortunately, the blood test for this deficiency has a wide range and the you have to be at the very bottom of the range or worse to get the injection. If you do a search online for Dr Chandry, he's based in the North East, it tells you loads about this problem. They've tried to strike him off because he goes against the grain and prescribes on symptoms and not just the blood test.

TT xx.

[lola1956 in reply to ThyroidThora]

Mine was 20 and still my doctor would not help even with the blood test range in front of him

[ThyroidThora in reply to lola1956]

Hi,

Do you mean 20 for vitamin d result? If so, then this is at the low end of the range and you may benefit from a supplement or increasing your dietary intake of vitamin d rich food.

[lola1956 in reply to ThyroidThora]

Yes my vitamin d was 20 a consultant at my hospital said my doctor was negligent as I was left to treat myself ..I take Dr's best d3 5000 iu one a day with food 4 hours at least away from levothyroxine

[ThyroidThora in reply to lola1956]

Hi Lola,

At last a medical professional that will actually tell you that your GP was negligent. They normally close ranks but my endocrine surgeon copied me on a letter that he'd sent to my GP and this implied that I'd had the symptoms of thyroid cancer for 4 years which, my GP neglected to diagnose. I just had swollen glands and laryngitis according to my GP.

I hope you start to feel better soon.

TT xx.

[lola1956 in reply to ThyroidThora]

Hi thora. Oh that's just awful but glad that at least someone picked up on it.im rapidly losing faith in doctors .today I was in accident and emergency as I had badly hurt my shoulder ....anyway the doctor there asked what medication I was on ..I said levothyroxine. .He said so what's wrong with you I said hypothyroid ..He said is that where your heart beats too fast or the other one ...I said the other one ...Omg. !!!!! I truly despair

[ThyroidThora in reply to lola1956]

OMG too!!!!!!!!! They haven't got a clue!!!

I've been to my pharmacist today to get my prescription for Levothyroxine and Liothyronine and felt like I was being interrogated about them. Have you had these tablets before? Do you know why you are taking them? Why aren't they on repeat? I had to explain all the cock ups with the GP and shout in a loud voice that I need them because of my thyroid cancer. It's so frustrating when you have to go over old ground all the time just to get the meds that you need.

Uuuuggg!

I'm off to bed to avoid the World Cup. Night, night and God bless.

TT xx.

[Hidden in reply to ThyroidThora]

Hugs TT - what world cup?

yawn zzzzzzzzz

[ThyroidThora in reply to Hidden]

I wish, it's everywhere! My hubby has got it on the telly again and it's driving the dog loopy with all the cheering and horns going off.

[suzannai]

there is a link between autoimmune like hashi and low D. Purchase D3 ideally as a sublingual. Depending on your levels 5000 IU per day may be needed. As for folate and B12 I would recommend the active forms; methyltetrahydrofolate and methylcobalamin - also in a liquid as it is better absorbed. You may also want to rule out malabsorption issues which are common with Hashimotos and all the more reason to look at B12 injections with folic acid aswell as better absorbed sublingual forms of vitamins.

[Heloise]

youtube.com/watch?v=82CSlDF...(Not working as expected?)

[ThyroidThora]

Hiya,

Vitamin D3 is supposed to be absorbed better by the body but it is synthetically made by extracting lanolin from sheep's wool and putting it through a long chemical process to extract the active form. Vitamin D2 is made from mushroom or yeast sources but even then the mushrooms are sometimes grown on lanolin so it is not a vegan source of Vitamin D. I have a Vitamin D deficiency along with a Calcium deficiency and cannot take Vitamin D supplements because I'm allergic to lanolin. I have to try and get my Vitamin D from sunlight (you need to expose your face and hands for at least 15 minutes everyday and not use sun blocks/creams before you go out into the sun. Vitamin D2 is obtainable from your diet in mushrooms and Vitamin D3 is found in salmon and eggs. Unfortunately, the concentration in food is not as high as a supplement but I'd rather have poached salmon and salad any day rather than take more pills.

Good luck and I hope this information helps.

TT xx.

[Mrs_Somerset]

\I have recently started on D3 capsules, taken with food ( but not within 4 hours of thyroxine)

My husband picked up the prescription from the docs today ( only 3 weeks after my private tests came back, and nearly 2 weeks since I started taking my own D3)

I got advice from folks taking D3 and started on this plan:

5000Iu each day for 2 weeks, then move to 2000iu each day onwards (winter) or 800IU each day onwards (summer)

I was surprised at what the doc prescribed, as it is what the vitimin D council say is TOXIC levels:

my doc has prescribed:

20,000iu each day for 2 weeks (toxic) and 800iu each day onwards.

he has provided no variant for summer / winter, even though he refused to do the vit D test, saying everyone levels change from winter to summer.

so - just providing you with info on what I am taking, vs what my muppet, and so far rather unhelpful doc has prescribed, eventually.

There is a BIg difference on what I would refer to as the 2 weeks loading doses, but I am already feeling the benefit of the 5000iu / day, and I do not trust my doc to tie his own shoelaces, but the choice is yours, I provide the info only as examples and would always recommend you speak to a doctor, ideally one whose judgement you trust, before self medicating.

I also saw an article about Vit D, of course no idea where I saved it to :-), but I do remember it said that Vit D from the sun, needs cholesterol in the skin, and vitamin F, and that too much vit d in summer lowers vitamin F which leads to colds and flu, and something about not wearing sunscreen as it blocks the conversion of sunlight to vit D - if this sounds familiar to anyone, could you please post the link, my brain fog is obscuring where I saw it

hope this is helpful,

Big Hugs,

M

[Heloise in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Hi M, I'm in the U.S. and have seen two doses prescribed by GP's: 15,000 i.u. twice per week and a 50,000 i.u. dose once per week.

I'm not sure about these high loads but thought you might like a comparison.

[Mrs_Somerset in reply to Heloise]

Hi Heloise,

Thank-you for your post - It is always useful to see what other people are doing and how they fare on it - I take it you are feeling well on the higher levels of D3?

Are your suppliments tablets or capsules?

[Heloise in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Hi M, I hope you don't have the same problem as I do and if you are noticing some benefit I would stick with what you are doing.

My level was 20 (well below the 100 high range) so I began trying several types of D3...some have an olive oil base. Some were sublingual. Some came as a spray. I was taking 5 to 10 thousand i.u. daily and getting a healthy tan. The bottom line is nothing worked and my G.P. only prescribes D2 which I did not want to take but felt I had no choice. It did bring my level up to 37 which is still too low. I am trying to get sun but trying not to tan too deeply which can block rays. And I am lastly trying an (by the way get one which includes K2) emulsion by BioGenesis and five drops are 2,000 i.u.

I'll see what happens with that but pain is still a persistent problem. But I hope you see good results.

[Mrs_Somerset in reply to Heloise]

Hi Heloise,

Thank-you for sharing your info, it is so useful, especially for me - I am currently on the 5,000iu, I have bought oil capsules, my GP eventually gave in and prescribed me 20,000 in tablet form, my numbers were 21nmol/l (or 8.4ng/ml) but there are a number of other things out of balance so it is a juggling act trying to get everything back into swing, and having to do this by myself as my doc is less than helpful.

I am also giving myself B12, hydroxycobalamine, as doc says once every 3 months is enough, even though symptoms that went away came back after 4 weeks.

I also take a range of supplements, as recommended here and via research - all in an effort to lesson the Pernicious anemia which was left untreated for years, and which has turned me from fit ,if often tired, happy and mentally pretty quick, to a brain fog invalid, stuck in bed / wheelchair.

The private docs here are good, but just so expensive - I had a consultation a couple of weeks ago and it cost me £1,275 - and for me, that is an awful lot of money.

The people here on Health unlocked are so helpful, and I really do appreciate it, as without them, I am pretty stuck.

I really do try to get as much info as I can, read as much research as I can, but it is so helpful to see what others are trying and how they get on. I know everyone is different, but it at least gives me an idea.

May I ask, when you say pain, are you referring to your legs / knees ( I read this previously) ?

I ask as my GP had said that the pain in my knees which wakes me up at night, (started about 6 months ago) apparently I yelp - had nothing to do with anything other than my not being mobile. Is there a possibility that this might go away with D3? - that would be great

But really I would like to be up and on my feet again, and the weather here in the UK is so nice at the moment, ideal for riding, swimming etc.

I feel a lot more awake and it has been nearly 2 weeks since I self medicated on the D3 oil capsules, and tweaked a couple of other minerals and I am feeling more clear headed, we think my tremors have lessoned and overall feel as though I have a bit more energy, but still exhuasted - so initially I think thinks are improving and I hope they continue to do so, and will continue to tweak my levels to try to get back to good health.

I hope things work out for you too, all I can say is that tramadol and gabapentin did nothing for my pain ( back, neck, head, arms, occasional knees) but everyone is different and they may be useful for you.

Big Hugs,

M

[Heloise in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Mrs., that is such a sad story and the charges paid to your private doctor is ridiculous. Goodness.

My pain is in the lumbar region and at times I wish I had a wheelchair as the muscles want to fail.

The nerves fire all over the lower back. As a matter of fact, I thought i would try physical therapy one more time (many chiro, massage, trigger point over the past ten years) and the doctor also prescribed gabapentin for neuropathy. I decided to switch to Gaba (supplement) (I just don't like prescription drugs) and my toes are better and it did take away the pain of my upper teeth that was getting quite pronounced. My knees don't bother me but I take it slow if I have to squat down. Do you take a good magnesium?

I know very little about the anemia. My mother-in-law had daily injections of iron in her backside for almost a month. This was due to a stomach ulcer that caused the malabsorption.

Do you think that would help you?

I know it's awful to be floundering in the dark.

Are you going to take the 20,000 i.u D3? I've listened to PhD's talk about the importance of vitamin D and am pretty certain that we should all try to get to an optimal level.

[Mrs_Somerset in reply to Heloise]

Hi Heloise,

I have put some info below I hope is helpful and hopefully answers some of your questions ( as well as I can with cotton wool head

The anemia I have is Pernicious Anemia (PA), and it means I have a B12 deficiency that willnever go away. It is an autoimmune disease ( the verison I have) - my body makes antibodies to a substance called Intrinsic Factor which is needed to absorb B12 from food.

I can eat as much B12 as I like, it is not getting into my blood or to anythere it needs to go.

Autoimmune diseases can turn on any time in your life, but because I have Hashimotos thyroid Hypothyroidism, it is something to check for, as when you have one autoimmune disease, apparently, others arelikely to follow.

My doc however refused to do any tests for thyroid antibodies.

I did these privately and mine were off the scale.

You can have iron deficiency anemia with Pernicious anemia, but I do not ( yey! )

The Guidelines here for treatment of pernicious anemia are a loading dose, and then at least one every 3 months one injection of B12 for the rest of your life. ( if you have neurological symptoms, like I do, you should continue the loading dose until no more improvement, but my doc stopped it, without testing me, examining me, or even seeing me - he just called me and told me he was stopping the loading dose, as "I must be full by now" - very scientific don;t you think?)

However, as with many patients, 1 in 3 months is not enough for me - the symptoms that had gone, came back within 4 weeks, but doctors do not always listen to patiens - you cannot overdose on B12, but because they do not know what they are doing, they refuse this life saving medication that costs £0.55 a shot.

I have now had to buy mine from abroad, and am self injecting once a month. So it is similar to what your mother-in law had for her Iron deficiency anemia, but instead of Iron, I am missing the B12, AND the shots go intramuscular into my arm, thankfully not my backside

The PHD you refer to - is it this chap? (found via google search vit D PHD):

lef.org/magazine/mag2010/se...

Interestingly he recommends a maximum loading dose daily of 10,000iU. I am afraid his message re Vit D has not quite made it over here, my doc said that Vit D was nonesense, evryones vit D levels go up and down winter to summer and he refused to test for it, teling me if I wnted some, to go buy a multivitmin tablet.

I did the test privately, came back 21nmol/l (8.4ng/ml)

he faffed about for 3 weeks and then gave me a prescription.

I am not going to take the pills my doc prescribed because - 1, I do not want to take so much, if I need more, I will ramp up slowly, and 2 - the ones he has given me are tablet, not gel capsule (oil) and as I already have malabsorption issues, I need an easily absorbed form, like the oil capsules I have bought myself - something my doc should have taken into account, if only he gave a damn.

I am not sure how long you have been supplimenting, for me it has only been a couple of weeks, but I believe that it can take anywhere from a couple of months to a couple of years to get back up to an optimum level?

Your level was so low at 20, I would be interested to know how long it took you to increase - are you having blood tests regularly ( I wonder if I should ask the doc for monthly, or 3 monthly blood tests to measure the effectiveness of the meds - he does not do any of this by himself, I have to push him to check the meds he gives me are working)

I find the info regarding the type of vit D contradictory online, so have gone with the path of least resistance - I cannot get D4, but D3 is the format closest to what the body uses, people could have D2 but it is harder to absorb, and then needs more work to make it to D3 and then D4 and I have heard good things about D3 here on HU.

It is so strange for me, I have always tried to eat healthily ( apart fot my love of cooking cakes - and of course eating them), so I am really surprised that I am deficient - but as my stomach lining is being attacked by my own antibodies now, I suppose other absorption issues are not unexpected.

I have looked into the PALEO diet as well, I had a number of recommendations here on HU, but the issue I have, is that for autoimmune PALEO diet, I have to cut out so many things, I would become a pariah in my own home. It is bad enough that I am allergi to cheese and cream and shellfish, so cannot enjoy prawns, or cheese fondue night, or profiteroles with the family, but if I stuck to PALEO, I think I might have to chew my husbands leg off I would be so hungry!

Have you tried any of these nutritional diets? How did you get on with them?

Big Hugs,

M

[Heloise in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Hello again, Mrs. M,

You will have to tell me what profiteroles are. I'm wondering if I should PM you since this thread is getting quite narrow.

[Clutter in reply to Heloise]

Heloise, profiteroles are little choux pastry balls filled with cream or ice cream and topped with chocolate icing. Best served with hot chocolate sauce.

deliaonline.com/recipes/mai...

[Heloise in reply to Clutter]

Oh, cream puffs?

Now, doesn't that sounds better?? teehee

[Clutter in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Mrs. Somerset,

20,000iu daily for two weeks is a loading dose to pump you full of vitD when you are deficient. The 800iu is a maintenance dose. Your GP will probably retest your vitD in 3/6 months. As soon as you are in the optimal range the scrips will cease.

My own loading dose was 40,000iu daily x 7 days followed by maintenance dose of 2,000iu for 8 weeks at which pointed I was 116, in the optimal range 75-200.

[Mrs_Somerset in reply to Clutter]

Hi Clutter,

Thank-you for sharing this info. I thought the 20,000 iu sounded too high as the vitamin D councill say anything above 10,000 iu is in the toxic range, but yours is double that.

I am glad you are back in the normal range now, I cannot wait for my levels to be back in range

[Clutter in reply to Mrs_Somerset]

Mrs. S, 10,000iu daily for prolonged periods might be a toxic dose for some but loading doses of 250,000-300,000iu over a few days will fill up the tank without causing toxicity. I felt very much better when I was replete as bone and joint pain disappeared.

[PinkNinja]

The haemophilus should have given it away as being bacterial! I'm not even a doctor! Sorry you had such a bad experience

[ThyroidThora]

Hiya,

What a debarckle you've gone through?!

I'm on welfare because the NHS/GP's cocked up with my diagnosis. I was diagnosed with diabetes nearly 6 years ago and I couldn't believe it, I was not a typical type 2 diabetic. I argued for years and refused meds and I went ignored and untreated until last year when the cause was found...I've got thyroid cancer and this affects the whole body and undiagnosed thyroid problems can lead to diabetes. I am on sick and welfare because of the GP system through no fault of mine and I'd much rather be working and doing the job I enjoy...teaching. Instead I'm on the scrap heap at 50 and I was told last year when the cancer was cut out that my life expectancy is 10 years. If it had been picked up and removed 5 years ago my life chances would be far greater.

Life stinks and then you die!

[Hidden]

it's nmol/L here in UK (mostly ng/ml in USA ) can be confusing... folks worry about toxic levels as it's fat soluble - that would take a lot of over-dosing.... usually without the help of magnesium & K2

vitamindtest.org.uk/vitamin...

Booklet here

vitamindcouncil.org/wp-cont...

It's So MUCH more that one vital mineral.......... J

healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...