Zopiclone Clonaz and Mirtazapine

[basten]

Have been on zop and clon 3 yrs for sleep. Never told anything about them .im uk. Also mirtaz 17 months.

Im trying to reduce Zopiclone slowly but can only cut in pieces. Having withdrawal issues. Anyone got of these meds and got their sleep back

[welly10]

Hi I'm on mirtazipine and was on zopiclone every day for sleep but only for 6 / 8 weeks I suffer sleep anxiety ie if I don't sleep my anxiety goes up that I'm not gonna get any sleep and the cycle continued.i saw something about a doctor referred online sleep therapy its called sleepstation its for 7 weeks and they go through all your sleep patterns and give you programs to try and follow using sleep restriction at first this was over a year ago I haven't used a zopiclone since I still have some for emergencies just in case.i know how you feel I was scared to come off them if I didn't sleep but with the course I picked a day and started it I still used the tablets while doing the program but weaned off them.good luck as your doctor about the course can all be done via a smartphone too.

[basten in reply to welly10]

Hi been on zop 2 hakf yesrs!!! Awful.issues.trying come off so reducing...still awful.Are you usa? Ill check sleepstation .sleepio.com is one too. But i still have 3 725 to go tgen a benzo. I go mad when cant sleep as suffer pain and it brings relief. I hope it wirks for you. Im glad you arent on them long. Ive had zop on off since 90s but stopped no issue. 2 half years has caused big issues as they are a bit lije a valium .thankyou

[welly10 in reply to basten]

I'm uk I do know the evidence from some doctors are conflicting as some say only use for 4 weeks as they addictive others say zop fine long term.i was mostly scared that I couldn't sleep as my mental health is drastically affected even after 1 day.i hope you get sorted good luck.the programme isn't sleepio.its sleepstation in the UK

[basten in reply to welly10]

Oh ok thanks. Docs now will rarely prescribe unkess aevere case and then onky a few. My are old achool older docs. Yes i stopped a benzo. Didnt sleep a whole week deove me nuts. Thanks re sleepstation. My lsych gave me sleepio.com...maybe its a US site a lot are!!

[basten in reply to welly10]

Thanks im slowly weaning off zop still then clonaz and mirtaz. I think im in for rough ride and theres something wrong with my digestion and its making me anxious. Have told gp AGAIN and he writing again to chase my 2 gi tests. Im dealing with meds. A broken hip and digestion pain. So sleep at mo a blessing but im so drugged a.m. and down. I will keep sleepstation on list .gonna take me months getting off meds that have probabky caused nerve ending peristalsis damage.☹☹

[kaliska0]

I've been on them and off them dozens of times over the decades but my insomnia is permanent. Stopping one med just means I'm trying another. For those meds though sleep usually returns to whatever it would be without meds within a week or 2 of having fully stopped the medication. Those are relatively mild as far as possible sleep aids out there go.

One thing to note with mirtazapine is that while it starts out sedating it often ends up feeling stimulating to many people. It's quite often used as a sleep aid but it's one of the least likely to remain sedating for long. Many people even find they have to start taking it in the morning to avoid it interfering with their sleep after a few months.

You are actually on clonazepam and zopiclone at the same time? 99% of doctors in the US would absolutely never mix a benzo and z-drugs like zopiclone given they are basically the same thing. z-drugs are just refined to be lacking some of the action that makes benzos so likely to be addictive but it also makes them weaker in effect. You might as well just take a little more clonazepam at night. Not that clonazepam is all that great of a sleep aid for a benzo. Unless you have an anxiety disorder to also treat during the day short acting benzos with a greater degree of muscle relaxant effect such as lorazepam, diazepam, temazepam..... are generally better for most people.

For those who are really resistant(like me) there are the benzos flurazepam and quazepam that do have really long half lives. They have minimal effect on any anxiety and only are useful as sleep aids so most doctors have never heard of them. You have to be resistant enough to not end up sedated all day if you take those.

[basten in reply to kaliska0]

Thanks. Yes been on zop off decades. Insomnia got so bad docs just kept prescribing them and added back clonaz for sleep. Then trazadone atarted off massive anxiety panic attacks i never experienced in life before. Stopping a zop one night... no sleep despite clon.next lunch out restajrant suddenly coukdnt eat everything loud noise felt awful.sat in car severe anxiety. Calmed. By 8.30 pm pressure in head awful.had to go bed. It went wben took zop. If i stop clon zop or mirtaz i wont sleep days . There is something wrong with my digestion now.Psych in hospital wanted me off clon and zop. I said oh i wont sleep. He kept me on but blamed my doctors. I wishi had atopped then. I was getting 3 huge panics a day in there. I know zs are like a benzo. 7.5 zop is like 3 valium.

Im scared of nit just no sleep but all the awful symotoms one can get stopping even slowly and im in soo much pain discomfort eating by time i go bed still despite early dinner im all over the place drugs doesnt work often for hours and im crying so bad. Wont call ambulance as just not long had broken hip op and thats still bad. These drugs have made me cery depressed flat no enotions. But i am scared theyve affected my oesophagus and digestion. I am sorry your insomnia is so bad. I dont know how you manage .

[kaliska0 in reply to basten]

If you stop a sleep aid you don't sleep for days and experience withdrawal. That is the trap you get yourself into taking medications like that or even some strong supplements. However, within a few days to at most a week the withdrawal will go away. The negative symptoms, anxiety, headaches, etc... will completely stop and your sleep will return to what it was like prior to medication with maybe some slight differences due to changes in lifestyle or health during that time.

Quite often doctors need to take you off meds you've been on for years in order to see the actual symptoms and better diagnose the problem. Otherwise the meds can cover stuff up or cause their own symptoms. You also have trouble testing other meds that might be more effective and in some cases simply can't mix them at all so you limit your options by staying on meds that only partially work or won't work for long.

Benzos and z-drugs are quite a dead end road for long term use unless you have very mild sleep problems. The effect will steadily become less while the negatives will continue to get worse and they will be harder and harder to stop taking the longer you are on them. It would be better to suffer for a short time now and find a better solution than suffer worsening sleep for years and then an even worse withdrawal when you finally give up on taking them.

Vit d does play a huge role in many functions of the body and the immune system. It could contribute to sleep problems. I take it year round. You should be able to buy sublingual vit d3+k2 oil. I more than doubled my vit d levels on blood tests taking 10,000iu of otc sublingual oil without increasing sunlight exposure, changing diet, or getting injections for my vit d deficiency. You will get far less vit d from pills or capsules than sublingual because the stomach destroys some of it and the intestines miss some of it. Sublingual absorbs straight into the tissue of your mouth and the blood vessels under there so if possible it's always best to get sublingual versions if you don't need to take a lot of something.

Magnesium glycinate is the best form for sleep and also good to supplement if you have poor absorption of nutrients and other health problems. Threonate would probably be the next best choice. They don't have the strong laxative effect that citrate does so you can take more and the secondary ingredient has benefits where citrate doesn't really help you at all.

B vitamins are another good idea when you notice other vitamin problems or poor absorption. They are involved in processing most of the nutrients you take in to make the hormones, neurotransmitters, and other substances that keep your body functioning. They also help get rid of byproducts that stress the body.

I don't generally recommend melatonin but if deciding to try it I would only take very small dosages earlier in the evening. Stick to the 3mcg pills and not the full 1-5mg ones. It helps trigger sleep but it also interferes with quality of sleep if too much stays in your body overnight. Taking it in the middle of the night might work for some people but it would be the absolute worst idea for others that are too sensitive to the negative effects melatonin can have.

Valerian root is usually a better choice than melatonin for a basic otc sleep aid.

[basten in reply to kaliska0]

I appreciate info. Yes i blame my gps for always prescribing b and z.....Given for bad insomnia. I never knew much about them then. Do now. Withdrawals from benzos can be horrific many symptoms and can take a year to slowly taper off and even then still have issues

I feel quite poorly. I quite frankly am totally brain dead confused. Thankyou for your input and time everyone here

[kaliska0 in reply to basten]

I can stop high dose benzos in about 4days. 2 if I want to deal with a headache. It depends on the person but it most certainly does not take a year to wean off them and they are one of the least likely psychiatric drugs to cause lasting negative effects. It should only take a couple weeks max if you have serious withdrawal problems and want to reduce the negative symptoms as much as possible. Anyone taking a year to get off benzos is only torturing themselves with no reason. People who have that much trouble stopping a benzo should also probably never take anything with any potential for addiction again or they risk becoming a serious drug addict.

There are worse things to stop than benzos. It did take me 2 years to get off seroquel due to it's physical effects and several more years to fix the metabolic and neurological issues it causes. Stopping clonidine requires a few days of nearly ending up unconscious on the floor if I change position too fast and having to take showers sitting down because it alters blood pressure. Welbutrin can cause seizures if stopped too quickly. I'll take benzo withdrawal any day over some of the other stuff I've been on.

[basten in reply to kaliska0]

Yes on BBUDDIES and FB group they all taper slow a year etc with water or weighing scales. How long were you on though and what dose. I on 3 half years at 0.5mg. The psych said do bot just stop as can cause seizures and many whove cold turkeyds say dont as it sheer hell. But others still taper and have issues bad all the tine and gets worse lower they go even after a year and on stopping symptoms still months later they say.I got to 2mg diaz and my already bad acid got soooo severe gp put ne back on 0.5 clon and its eased. I am wondering at 72 if i shoukd put myself through it all...scared tbo. My sleep is already compromised reducing now 7.5 zop to 3.725. One gp said you should keep taking your zop as you need your sleep Linda!!

My digestion is working right. The drugs have made me flat and the lower i got on the diaz then on i was soo depressed.

I have said what youve said re slow torture on the group but no they all say best way!! I have had clonaz before on off never this long abd stopped ok but then no sleep days.

Im even wondering if i shoukd stay on zop as it is causing me often wake with anxious feeling.

Ghee youve been through awful time and i presume your well now hopefully.

Ive never had to increase my dose take for sleep

Reducing when i was on just 4mg diaz also when switcged to it started to make me hyper sexual...a few repirted this... but my then psych and gp said it shouldnt do that...it did...i felt a liar. After diaz made acid sooo bad GP switcged me back to clkn as i said...the urges atill can happen and legs everywhere waking me up or ill get up..pee..back bed cant sleep ans they start. They get me down as i hate feeling like that and just dont want so cant make it out.

And benzo site say avoid food with histamine whilst reducing.

I know theres something wrong with my digestion....waiting 2 tests but i dont know if its long term use of these druga thats caused and whether i should stop. I kinda want to of course have no more poison but am really really scared what will happen and at ny age 72 taking a year to taper and maybe being bad i dont have maybe time on my side.

So again how long were you on and how much of what benzo and how did you reduce over hiw many days? Just cut tablets slowly ?

Thankyou for this

[basten in reply to kaliska0]

P.s. also when you came off the benzos were you still on other meds that may have made it ok for you to come off ? Im still on mirtaz and 3.725 zop as i said. I think when they took me to psych ward 2019 i was on 1mg clonaz and they reduced abd ive never had panic attacks in my life but got them 3 day then for 5 weeks.

[kaliska0 in reply to basten]

Well first if you want sleep you have to replace the benzos with something unless your insomnia disorder has simply vanished over the years. If you have nothing in mind to try for your insomnia then there is no point stopping your current meds even if they will eventually fail you. Some lower risk prescription options I've used to successfully improve sleep would be gabapentin, hydroxyzine, and belsomra. Belsomra is probably the safest with no addiction or withdrawal risk while still being effective for most people IF you follow a good sleep routine. Because belsomra is easy to stay awake after taking and doesn't give you that extra sedative hit like a benzo does many fail to take steps to help themselves fall asleep and stay in bed. The belsomra never has a chance to work in those situations.

Even when we aren't talking about getting the most out of something like belsomra you need to follow proper sleep behaviors or you will have to take a lot more and stronger medications. Morning sunlight by either going outside or using light therapy lamps and evening darkness with reduced room lighting and turning off all electronics or at least using blue screen filters before bed is usually the most important thing for helping sleep. Keeping a schedule even when you aren't otherwise required to is probably about equally important.

sleepfoundation.org/sleep-h...

My history with benzos and sleep aids is very long because my severe insomnia started when I was 12 years old and now I'm in my mid 30s. I've taken benzos for years straight and still stopped them in days with minimal problems. First I took xanax for about 4 months and then quit it cold because I just didn't need it for that purpose anymore. Clonazepam I only took for a week because I kept getting withdrawal like symptoms between doses that left me suffering an hour or 2 of bad depression and anxiety every day. I didn't want to just keep upping the dose to prevent it so I asked for a different med. I went on and off temazepam, lorazepam, and diazepam repeatedly after months or a full year of taking each at a time. I also took eszopiclone for 2years and was forced to stop it cold when my general doctor decided she was no longer comfortable treating me and I had to wait for a psychiatrist. I had no real problem doing any of that. My insomnia just returned while I was completely unmedicated to the point I finally went to the emergency clinic to at least get some mirtazapine until my psychiatrist appointment.

I eventually ended up on a mixture of 800mg seroquel, 75mg amitriptyline, 30mg flurazepam, belsomra, and 1000mg gabapentin all at the same time and after 5+ years of that stopped them all over several months for the gabapentin and a couple years for the seroquel in order to start over. The whole sedating myself into unconsciousness was not working after 15years of trying to solve insomnia that way so I completely changed my approach.

I am well aware of how psychiatric meds can impact the body long term even when it's not recognized by doctors. Stimulants have been shown to potentially change your neurology permanently with so far the longest study done on people who stopped prescription amphetamines lasting 18months. Their brain activity remained altered from what it was prior to taking any meds.

Antipsychotics like seroquel are a mess that can screw with so many metabolic and other systems. You never know what will happen when you try to stop them after long term use. On very rare occasion people have even lost use of their senses such as reduced sight or taste and smell if they don't keep taking some seroquel forever.

When it comes to benzos though odds are extremely low that the meds have caused major changes in the body you can't fix sooner. They are very selective and only impact gaba receptors so limited places for things to go wrong. Part of the problem is likely having to relearn how to deal with stress, anxiety, and sleep properly without a sedative helping. It is possible though your gaba receptor sensitivity or production is failing to recover as fast as it should. Luckily this is a simpler problem than many other psychiatric meds with their widespread effects. Forcing the body to deal with the problem more acutely usually recovers normal function faster and that's why most people can simply suffer for a week or 2 and be mostly over it.

If for health reasons or aging your body does not recover gaba usage normally or you can't handle the amount of mental strain of a quick withdrawal then there are a variety of otc supplements, behaviors, and diet that can improve gaba production or sensitivity again. My first suggestion would be trying valerian root and magnesium glycinate to help maintain increased gaba and continue to get sleep while reducing benzos. I've never had to go farther than that but many have tried to improve gaba without use of benzos or needed more extreme solutions so there are many supplement suggestions out there that could further help.

Many of these articles have a lot of overlap but they also have a unique suggestion or info in there.

objectivewellness.com/journ...

alorecovery.com/ways-to-inc...

brainmd.com/blog/how-to-nat...

daveasprey.com/gaba-neurotr...

These 2 get a bit more technical but I find self hacked in particular to be a very complete and useful resource-

blog.davincilabs.com/blog/p...

selfhacked.com/blog/natural...

The one major thing GABA does impact that may contribute to further problems when stopping benzos is function of the HPA axis. This is the stress response control system and could result in increased negative symptoms and extended recover after benzo usage if it's not working correctly. Supplements that support proper function in that area may reduce the issues stopping benzos and also prove useful for getting sleep without benzos. It's hard to find articles that don't get into really technical explanations or merely tell you to find a specialist doctor but I tried to find some good ones.

emersonecologics.com/blog/p...

integrativepro.com/articles...

foodforthebrain.org/hpa-axi...

This looks to concentrate more on anxiety disorders but seems to have a good explanation of how stress, anxiety, or HPA axis dysfunction that is supposed to manage those things leads to sleep disorders- nbwellness.com/library/adre...

Here are some hopefully not overly complex explanations of why GABA and HPA axis function are related.

frontiersin.org/articles/10...

researchgate.net/publicatio...

Keep in mind people are individuals and what supplement helps one will not help another. You can also get a side effect from an otherwise useful supplement that someone else doesn't. I generally take supplements at around half the recommended dose for a couple days if I can before trying the full dose. Liquids and tablets that can be cut are useful for that over capsules.

[basten in reply to kaliska0]

Wow i have a lot to read tgankyou.They dont do Belsomra here uk. Never heard of it.

I will get what you suggested re gaba.

I have been on 30 meds in 40 years all of them.stopped as felt ok or huge weight gain or bad reactions and ince waz on amitryp venlafaxine quetiaoin trazadone. Ballooned slept fine. Then each night i took after a long time id take and id suddenly have to hold onto wall to get to bed and in bed my heart pounded so loud and hard i was scared so i came off.

You say you were on meds and came off. How did you taper the benzo? Cutting tablet or just missing nigbts. I dont have time on my side to do a year taper and hate the idea of weighing scrapoing or water abd syringes. Then the issue is if i do a water taper and half way tgrough and i have to go into hospital again for something they arent going to do water stuff etc and will jhst ask what dose R u on and water to pill equiv id have no clue!!

My chest gets tight so bad all ariund middle when i eat . So uncomfortable. Hurts to breath.

I know somethibg isnt right but tokd again doc twice abd shes written again to gi but here uk NHS have thkusands waiting due to c19

May i ask you how did youbstop mirtaz 15mg? My psych said just stop but been on 17months gp given me liquud 1ml = 15MG says reduce by 0.1ml a week.

I have to ask questions sorry cos i have anxiety. Its ny digestion too gets me diwn.

I have dark bedroom. No caffeine. I still have depressuin cos i dont kniw whats goung on iside me and am worried its oesoohageal c or my pancreas again.

Thankyou for all links. I feel like just stopping All my meds but that wiukd be wromg. My body yes is 42 years okder than your and organs not as good etc.

[basten in reply to kaliska0]

Read. Confused but sebt for what yiu said Did you reduce your benzos slowky or cut tablets in half for a while then quarters? My clonaz is scored like a cross.

[basten in reply to kaliska0]

Do you take mag glycate for sleep and vit d. My vit d levels were ok last test but i cant go out doc said restart winter but naybe i ahiukd take all time. Im looking for sublingual. She gave ne the oil capsukes before. Im realky struggling. I dont know if drugs causing my food to have issues with or tgere is an issue. I do have bile gastritis oesophagitus hernia pain 6byrars all burns in back.on ppis gaviscon. But now i can "feel" food in my back i alresdy have motility of oesoph so think it got worse. I cant eat a dinber abd pudding at 2.30 by 7 to 10 bed im real bad.I get you when you say drugs can mask underlying conditions . My kids want me off them . I once took clon...pancreatis so hospital i didnt take it so bever slept for 7 days and in pain abd they were dischargibg me so i took 30 clon o.d.

[Metabobbly in reply to kaliska0]

A lot of this is good. However, I would think Mg Threonate plus glycine is better than Mg glycinate and there is a merit in having some citrate/citric acid, but not too much.

Also I am a bigger fan of Melatonin than you are. It, however, has a short serum half life.

[Metabobbly in reply to kaliska0]

What sort of insomnia do you have and what do you do about various supplements such as vitamin D, magnesium etc?

[basten in reply to Metabobbly]

Had on off life . I take no supps. Reducing z and benzs they say take non ive read. I still get sleep till i get off them in months down line. I was vit d deficient. Had gp script for high dose. Bkood ok. But doc said take again winter yet my vit d even with food and sunshine has slowly declined since i had gallbladder removed as its fat soluble and it shows a slow decline on the med notes graph chart. Regards

[kaliska0 in reply to basten]

Absolutely, definitely, without a doubt take things like vit d or magnesium if you need it along with benzos. Ignoring a vitamin/mineral deficiency is a very bad idea that will not only contribute to insomnia but cause a decline in your overall health just as severe as not getting sleep from benzo withdrawal will. Probably worse. Any doctor aware of a true deficiency would give you the vitamins/minerals alongside your sleep aids without hesitation unless there is a very unique health problem preventing it.

With few exceptions for stronger or less predictable supplements most can be safely combined with benzos or z-drugs and used to help reduce withdrawal even if they are herbals. When it comes to basic nutrient supplements (vitamins, minerals, proteins, fats.....) The only reason I can think of to caution against mixing such things with benzos is in people who have a seizure disorder because many random things can trigger seizures and benzo withdrawal increases the risk of seizures in those that already have a chance of experiencing them. If you've never shown a risk for seizures then no reason to worry about that.

Supplements are often used alongside prescription sleep aids to improve sleep further and reduce the odds of having to take a higher dose or stronger med with more risks. I take vit d sublingual, magnesium oxide and magnesium threonate(I can't take magnesium glycinate or I would use that), vitamin b12, folate, omega 3 fatty acids, an amino acid supplemented protein shake, and coconut oil supplement along with my flurazepam benzo, belsomra, hydroxyzine, and clonidine I use right now. That's just the stuff to counter nutrient deficiencies I am prone to that contribute to both low energy and sleep problems. I also take several other things that are not basic nutrients but I researched the interaction potential of.

You should always inform your doctor of your supplements. You can also check for common interactions in the info that comes with your medication or using a drug info or interaction checker website.

[Metabobbly]

I would think that vitamin D deficiency and magnesium deficiency are both likely to cause insomnia as are other things. However, you might be best talking to your doctor about this although doctors tend to recommend 400iu which may be a low. For me it would be low.

There are other things, but without knowing how your insomnia hits I cannot make suggestions.

[basten in reply to Metabobbly]

Thats ok. I have tried 2mg melatonon in past did nothing. When def in vit d i was given 20000ius one a day 2 months. I know magnesium relaxes think its mag citrate but have to watch kidneys i think. I have high bp on meds for. I atill reducing zop 3.725 to go. Still clon and mirtaz drugged till 10 a.m. awful. I go slow i never laugh feel happy as the mirtaz zop clon flatten emotions .

[Metabobbly in reply to basten]

Melatonin is something to take in the middle of the night when you wake up, not when you go to bed. If you take it when you go to bed it is quite likely to be counterproductive.

Vitamin D should be taken regularly in the morning at last 1000iu although potentially less in the summer.

Magnesium could be Malate, Citrate, Taurate, Glycinate or Threonate. I think Threonate is best for the brain, but there are good different reasons for Citrate, Taurate and Glycinate. Stearate has relatively small amounts of Elemental Magnesium, but you may eat quite a bit in indigestion tablets.

[basten in reply to Metabobbly]

Ok i have some mag which i take a bit as says for nerves muscle support as my muscles abd knee in leg painful 12 weeks after my hip op and cant walk well.Will keep melatonin in mind .thankyou appreciated

[Metabobbly in reply to basten]

Supplements are things which need to be treated with some respect. Vitamin D, for example, needs to be taken in the morning. The quantity matters as taking too much can cause problems and taking too little does not have the same benefit.

Vitamin D for example can come in oil filled capsules or as tablets. The capsules provide about 30% more vitamin D because it is fat soluble for the same quantity on the label.

With Magensium the anion can make a difference. You can have oxide, citrate, malate, threonate, stearate and glycinate and all of these have different effects.

[basten in reply to Metabobbly]

Yes i am going to take my vit d once week. The mag i take occasionally. The FB benzo group say no supplements as can make tapering worse.

[Metabobbly in reply to basten]

I don't know what effect there is between benzo and any supplements.