Maybe someone can help explain the effect of magnesium on dopamine levels.I thought a dopamine agonist was helpful in calming rls.
Magnesium is an antagonist so decreases dopamine levels, yet is touted as effective in controlling rls.
Don't know if I'm making any sense here.
I also read that taking mg can possibly cause argumentation after awhile.
😕
"Magnesium inhibits calcium-dependent brain dopamine release [7]. By decreasing glutamate action on NMDA receptors in the brain. By stimulation of NMDA receptors, glutamate increases synaptic dopamine release."
Can you translate🤔?
Sorry - nope. Perhaps someone else can.
"Magnesium blocks the actions of glutamate in the NMDA receptors. If your body is magnesium deficient, it means that few of the NMDA receptors are blocked. This may lead to overexcitation and cell damage. Because of this, it is possible that magnesium may be useful in the treatment and prevention of depression".
I think the theory is, RLS can be caused by a buildup of glutamate in the brain. Magnesium blocks the glutamate receptor and lessens RLS symptoms.
Some people have gone so far as to go on a very strict low glutamate diet. It didn't work for me. Maybe that explains why magnesium was not effective for me.
BTW, I just switched to calcium instead of magnesium in the morning with my coffee.
Thanks for your input. I've been reading about glutamate. It's all so confusing .I take calcium plus d at noon and after dinner (for years) I have osteoporosis so it's a must. Took 100mg of Mg Glycinate with my coffee for the first time today.
I actually feel better than usual.😃
Where did you see that taking mg can possibly cause argumentation after awhile?
I thought I read it on a thread in this forum. I'll see if I can find it.
Hi - 'augmentation'
I knew that😁
My husband attended an all- day Zoom conference on RLS this week. Re magnesium here’s what was said: It has no value for RLS and interferes with iron. It either blocks its absorption or prevents it reaching the brain. I’m not sure which of the two. Hope this helps.
Thank you. I have to say that I haven't seen any relief taking the Mg. I thought the first few days it was calming things but I'm right back where I was, if not worse.I have a cupboard full of various kinds too😒
Oh, well. I did take 100mg this morning but will take no more.
Hopefully my iron will start to kick in.
Appreciate your input!
You're welcome. As you well know, every case is different, and some claim it helps, but the experts say it does nothing except maybe impede iron absorption.
Have you thought about taking two 28mg capsules of ferrous bisglycinate about an hour before bed instead of just one?
I've thought of it. Kinda nervous about "too much" iron.Have you tried this?
RLS was pretty bad last night so did as you suggested and took another 28mg of iron glycinate. I did fall asleep for a couple of hours but rls continued when I woke up.At least I got 2 hours in.
Nah, it should work better than that. This might be contributing: healingwell.com/community/d...
Thank you for the link.I'm just about finished with it. Last day of taper- 5mg.
I'll try the Fe x2 again if I need to.
If magnesium is taken within 2 hours of iron, it does reduce the absorption of iron. Many but not all people on this forum has found that it does help their RLS.
Wishful thinking on my part I guess.I was always taking it at least 2 hrs if not more before taking Fe.
I did have 2 or 3 calm nights when I started Mg. for some reason but that was short lived.
Back to square one.😣
calcium and magnesium both fight for the receptor that iron does. Most people have a higher uptake of calcium and mg, that is often the reason why iron loses the race. Too little gets to the brain. The iron uptake is not very high anyway.
That is also the reason why iron supplements should always be taken singular- just before bedtime and with a glas of orange or grapefruit juice.
hi That’s good information. Thank you. I have always had problems with side effects from oral iron, so I’ve had several infusions over the past five years or so. At times, I’m not sure whether or not they’ve helped the RLS,. Other times, I think they have. They do elevate my Ferritin levels, but I’ve never reached higher than about 175. I might have an issue with slow blood loss somewhere but so far, no clues.
I can't tell you WHY magnesium can help RLS - studies usually end 'more research needed' - but just that it works for some (including me) but not others (including my brother!) It initially stopped my RLS symptoms within a few days.
healthunlocked.com/rlsuk/po...
As to augmentation, I've not read that: someone did suggest to me - in the chain I've just linked - that I might have become *dependent* on it when I reported RLS symptoms when I missed taking it one day. I've since experimented and find that's not the case for me - the breakthrough was for some other reason.
I can now live without it: I am however now continuing to take 200mg of Mg citrate a day as a maintenance measure (instead of 400-600mg).
Thanks Chris, I've just started taking MG Glisinate 100mg after dinner with calcium and D3. I've had 3 rls free nights. First time in months. Also keep some mg citrate/malate gummies by the bed and break off about 25mg . Seems to help me get back to sleep if I wake up for the restroom. I'm so on edge that the rls is going to start, sorta just lay there waiting.Do you think that's too much or not enough mg?
I'm afraid I don't know the appropriate dosage for Mg glycinate, but in general needs vary - but if it works it's probably right!
Forgot to add 28mg of iron glycinate (gentle iron) right before sleep as well.
Take iron and magnesium 2 hours apart as the magnesium interferes with the absorption of iron. Same with calcium.
Okay
Did you ever have your ferritin checked?
You know I'm not sure. After reading about it on here so much I did ask my pulmonologist for a ferritin blood test.It was126.
Then you really don't need to take iron, since your ferritin is over 100.
Pulmonologist said to take it. I have copd so could be for a reason related that. Didn't take it one night and did have a tough rls night. Afraid not to.
I'm so grateful for this site.
RLS has taken over my life.
It exacerbates my copd breathing problems. When it starts I have panic attacks. Don't want to go to bed.
I am seeing a neurologist at the end of the month with a pre appt ct scan.
Hi RM, like you, I need to take iron every night, despite having healthy iron stores. I wish Sue would quit telling people to stop taking nightly iron when their ferritin hits 100. Ferritin levels have very little to do with RLS, unless you’re anemic, then it could be a trigger. And in terms of magnesium, all the articles I read indicate it is a dopamine antagonist. That’s what we need. We need to antagonize our dopamine receptors NOT agonize them with DAs. Antagonizing receptors should up-regulate them and in the long run improve our RLS. I would just take it during the day rather than at night. The calcium should be fine to take at night and preferrably right after dinner. From what I read, calcium leans more towards being a dopamine agonist, but I highly doubt it would lead to augmentation. So it seems to me calcium is something you want to take in the evening. Just try to make sure your stomach is empty when taking the iron. In general, people with RLS seem to do better by not eating after their evening meal, or not after 7pm.
Thank you btw, I’m adding you to the list of people who get immediate relief from RLS with ferrous bisglycinate. Don’t be afraid of the RLS returning. I’ve been using the iron for well over 10 years now and it has never failed me.
Does the mg make you sleepy when you take it during the day? I would much rather take it around noon but I think it helps me fall asleep.Maybe I'll split it and take noon and dinner.
Usually take Fe around 10pm.
Thanks for responding.
I haven’t taken Mg in quite awhile. Like you, I used to take it at night mostly. I’ll have to play with it and see. The iron has a tendency to knock me out. Which drove one man on here crazy when I said that. Then not too long ago someone else suggested it was likely the “glycine” in the bisglycinate that was doing it.
Most people take it at night and find it helps most then.
is your new supplement routine solving the RLS?
incorrect… research on Hopkins is showing that some people need to get their ferritin levels up to 400 before they get relief from RLS
True - I am aware of that. But most people don't.
Then you should say that instead of misinformating people who may find relief with higher ferritin levels ?
It is rare to need a ferritin of 400 - you only needed a ferritin of 80 to find relief. But I will stop telling people if their ferritin is over 100 that they can stop taking iron. Thank you for this.
Some doctors give it to those whose Ferritin is 100 and even if it’s under 200.
Yep. My mention of 80 was that that was what Svengolly found relief at.
As Sue says, the recommendation is to take Mg and Fe apart...
I don't believe there's any harm in continuing to take Fe when ferritin is over 100 and indeed it's likely beneficial (and could be essential) for maintaining iron levels, and can help them edge higher. (That's unless iron interferes with any other meds that you're taking).
Serum ferritin levels are only a guide to iron store levels in the body and brain - just happens to be the best easily measurable test that we have.
100 is only a minimum target, 200 is better: I've only once had a sub 200 level in 15 years, and that was 186 (this without any iron supplementation).
Which was why I tried magnesium, with great results. I'm currently RLS symptom free, as long as I avoid my dietary and drug interaction triggers.
I'll have to look up your dietary thread.
I now avoid diet drinks and foods containing artificial sweeteners, particularly aspartame. I've cut back on sugar, starch and caffeine (although some find caffeine helpful). But different things affect different people: some people, such as Eryl , go to much greater lengths.
As far as drugs go, only statins - particularly atorvastatin - really gave me a lot of trouble. Others have a wider range of problematic meds: SueJohnson has longer lists of potential triggers. But again we all vary: I am taking other meds such as losartan which some report as problematic but don't trouble me.
Mind, too much iron can be quite dangerous. It’s highly reactive and also accumulates in the body. I’d be very careful with that…according to some researchers, cancer risk goes up both with too little and too much iron in the body.
While that's true, haemochromatosis can be diagnosed in blood tests: serum ferritin is one measure alongside transferrin saturation, and the presence of the HFE gene. The OP's blood test results cannot have given any cause for concern.
Serum ferritin levels of up to the low 300s are perfectly normal in men & postmenopausal women, and up to c. 200 in premenopausal women. Even levels of 1000 are not necessarily problematic as long as the reason for elevation is known (e.g. an Iron transfusion) and it's known to be temporary (ref OUH Haematology).
Serum ferritin of 126-200 and a normal transferrin saturation is not an indicator of haemochromatosis.
I wasn’t concerned about hemochromatosis.
Even mildly elevated levels of iron can be an issue if you want to avoid cancer.
Interestingly, people with mild anemia live longer than others.
Here’s a bit from the abstract of an article about iron. Do with it what you will, everyone will follow their own instincts, anyway. I do think people should be aware of the issue, before they become overly enthusiastic about iron suppletion.
”Iron is an essential element for virtually all living organisms, but its reactivity also makes it potentially harmful. Iron accumulates with aging, and is associated with many age-related diseases; it also shortens the lifespans of several model organisms. Blocking iron absorption through drugs or natural products extends lifespan. Many life-extending interventions, such as rapamycin, calorie restriction, and old plasma dilution can be explained by the effects they have on iron absorption, excretion, and metabolism. Control of body iron stores so that they remain in a low normal range may be an important, lifespan- and healthspan-extending intervention.”
Biochemistry is incredibly, unbelievably, astoundingly complex.
So there can be countless reasons why magnesium can be helpful.
I read:
“Magnesium can reduce dopamine release in some brain structures through direct presynaptic action at the level of some dopaminergic synapses, by inhibiting calcium induced brain dopamine release, and by decreasing the stimulatory action of glutamate upon dopamine release.”
That last phrase is probably crucial. We’ve known dopamine is implicated in restless legs for a long time. Somewhat newer is the insight that glutamate plays a very significant role.
So if Mg inhibits (one form of?) dopamine release, but it also decreases glutamate’s action, then all in all it could still have a positive effect on our poor legs.
Zyxx, my wife had RLS . She didn't want to use a drug so I researched for her. I learned the blood brain barrier makes it difficult for magnesium to pass but a form called magnesium threonate has the ability to cross the blood-brain barrier to effectively increase magnesium levels in the brain. She was taking a B complex so 100 mg of thiamine in the form of TTFD was added twice a day with food. This form, like the magnesium threonate, could effectively cross the blood brain barrier than other forms. It calmed her legs and she was finally able to sleep. Loss of magnesium can be caused by stress, chronic pain, alcohol, sweat and caffeine to name a few. The activation of thiamine by magnesium is important for brain control of digestion so better absorption occurs.
so helpful to know!
Your question is a complex one and the answer depends on understanding the role of NMDA receptors. NMDA receptors are a type of glutamate receptor found in the brain that are involved in learning, memory, and synaptic plasticity. These receptors are activated by the neurotransmitter glutamate and require the presence of a co-agonist, either glycine or D-serine, and the binding of magnesium ions to their external surface. When the cell is depolarized, magnesium is expelled from the receptor, allowing calcium ions to enter the cell. This influx of calcium can trigger a cascade of events that lead to the strengthening of the synapse between two neurons, which can ultimately result in the formation of new neural connections and the encoding of long-term memories.
NMDA receptors also play a role in regulating the release of dopamine, a neurotransmitter involved in reward and motivation. When activated, NMDA receptors can inhibit the release of dopamine by increasing the activity of inhibitory neurons in the brain, which dampen the activity of dopamine-releasing neurons. This mechanism is thought to be involved in the regulation of reward-related behaviors, such as drug addiction and compulsive gambling.
Now let’s look at your specific question on how Magnesium affects dopamine levels. Magnesium can modulate the activity of NMDA receptors by binding to their external surface and blocking the passage of calcium ions. This inhibition of calcium influx can reduce the activity of NMDA receptors and decrease the strength of synaptic connections between neurons. However, magnesium does not directly affect dopamine levels. Magnesium supplements have been suggested as a potential treatment for depression and anxiety, which are associated with dysregulation of the NMDA receptor system. Nonetheless, the relationship between magnesium and dopamine is complex and not yet fully understood, and further research is needed to elucidate the exact mechanisms underlying this interaction.
thank you for this explanation....it's way over my head! But are you suggesting that magnesium can actually increase addictive behaviors? And also increase RLS symptoms?
Magnesium supplements can have an effect on the nervous system and can help alleviate the symptoms of RLS. However, it is not known if magnesium supplements have an effect on addictive behaviors. Check with your doctor before starting any supplement. If you are taking Gabapentin and magnesium for RLS, it is recommend taking them at least 4 hours apart as magnesium can prevent Gabapentin from working. As far as calcium is concerned, it is best to take it with magnesium, vitamin D3 and vitamin K2 because these nutrients work together to help calcium absorption and promote healthier bones. It is usually recommended to take no more than 300 mg of calcium at one time, preferably with meals, if your doctor recommends calcium supplements.
thank you ...very helpful advice..and certainly my neurologist, who considers herself one of the top RLS specialists in USA (just ask her!), did not warn me at all about the mag/ gabapenten connection. Much appreciate your explanation
thanks to all for this conversation. It seems i might have unwittingly made everything worse..i have needed a lot of mag supplementation. I am now understanding that that was related to long-term leaky gut and over consumption of oxalate-laden foods...for years, i have been taking mag citrate both morning and evening at 500mg.
Will try to cut down..meantime, does anyone know if melatonin plays into this mix and cause more RLS?
Melatonin is well known to make RLS worse because it decreases dopamine.
another apparent oversight by my supposedly excellent RLS expert...😐
What does too much Dopamine do to your system?
Magnesium
magnesium and pregabalin 
