Could Shallow Breathing be related to RL symptoms?

[Reb0013]

Hi everyone, I'm still suffering from RLS with the horrible sensations in my legs, shoulders and recently my hand. Have those of you with these symptoms noticed a relationship between your breathing when you go to bed at night - such that shallow breathing or congestion (lack of enough oxygen through the nose) and your symptoms. When I purposely do deep breathing exercises my symptoms seem to get better and sometimes subside... they always come back. I'm wondering if when I finally fall asleep and then am awakened with the legs twitching with that current feeling if it was because I am a shallow breather and not enough oxygen was getting through my body..?? Anyone?

[Hidden]

RLS is related to sleep apnoea. It sounds like you may have obstructive sleep apnoea. The only way to test for this to have sleep monitoring. Particularly for oxygen saturation levels.

I'd ask your doctor about this.

In the meantime you could also have blood tests for ferritin, vitamin B12 and vitamin D.

If your ferritin is below 75 then an oral iron supplement may help.

If your B12 and D are too low, then supplements will help.

Are you taking any medications?

[Reb0013 in reply to Hidden]

Thank you Manerva; I have been tested for sleep apnea and I do have mild- moderate along with a 16% Saturation on my iron panel.. low ironand ferritin as well. I cannot wear the typical CPAP gear and am currently being fitted for a custom dental appliance by a sleep study dentist. I hope this will help. Taking care of the low iron and the sleep apnea at the same time and praying for some relief from the on going restless legs! Horrible to go night after night with only 2-4 hrs sleep! (Vit B12 and Vit D are normal). Additionally today I got a call from my GI doc saying I tested positive for H Pylori which might be why I could not absorb oral iron supplements. Wheww.. it's a process to find out what might be causing the restless legs but I feel I am on the right path to making diagnostic discoveries.

[Hidden in reply to Reb0013]

Yes, it does sound like you're on the right path.

I hope it improves for you.

[Bpsuper]

You might try some on line yoga classes which helps with the breathing. I cannot do the full yoga but manage chair yoga. It is not all sitting but good exercise and controlled breathing to make full use of oxygen intake. It has made a difference to my night time breathing as well. I am sure there is some on youtube or seek out a local teacher for Zoom classes.

[Reb0013 in reply to Bpsuper]

Yes! Thank you! I do yoga classes during the day with deep breathing and yes it does definitley help.

[Eryl]

I noticed that sugary foods triggered my rls and went on a low carb diet. Six months later I realised that I had solved my breathing problem (same as yours) as well. A high carb diet is inflammatory, it causes inflammation throughout the body so it makes the nerves more sensitive leading to rls and constricts the bronchii leading to breathing problems. It also leads to inflammation in the gut (like a beer belly) so you may notice a flatter tummy after six months.

Vitamin D supplements will help to reduce the inflammation a little but will not eliminate it unless you remove the cause.

[Reb0013 in reply to Eryl]

Thank you- I am starting a low FODMAP diet now in hopes of helping.

[Eryl in reply to Reb0013]

I'm just on a low carb diet and avoid inflammatory refined vegetable oil (something I haven't found i FODMAP lists) I only cook with coconut oil or cold pressed olive oil. Something that I haven't found problematic that's on the list to avoid is leeks, onions and garlic.

[Hidden in reply to Reb0013]

That is probably a very good idea. There are quite a few food elements that can cause gut inflammation plus other factors.

Excess carbohydrate is also a significant factor in causing chronic inflammation elsewhere.

If you have H pylori then this will be causing inflammation. Luckily treatment is quite effective.

Hopefully you are aware of the two main types of sleep apnoea. Central sleep apnoea is possibly more dangerous, but obstructive sleep apnoea is also very dangerous.

Central apnoea is due to a problem with the respiratory centres in the hindbrain.

The latter is due to obstruction of the upper airway, nose and throat due to relaxation of muscles there. Especially the soft palate. It is NOT due to inflammation of the bronchii. Hence CPAP can be helpful.

The problem is that you can actually stop breathing when asleep and hence oxygen saturation can fall.

It doesn't mean however, that measures to reduce inflammation can't be helpful for RLS.

[Reb0013 in reply to Hidden]

hummm.. I did not know there were two types of sleep apnea. However, the sleep study lab did diagnose mine as mild-moderate obstructive sleep apnea. I am actually a thin person but do to the smaller anatomy of my jaw and the fact that I had TMJ surgery years ago, my jaw falls open and I'm a mouth breather... plus a shallow breather. I'm hoping the effort put into this with the dental appliance does the trick. I have been using the somifix sleep strips which forces me to breath through my nose and all the congestion is gone!

[Hidden in reply to Reb0013]

That sounds as if the dental appliance should do the trick.

Your problem is a "mechanical" one, there should be no congstion.

[Reb0013 in reply to Hidden]

Breathing through my mouth causing congestion because air isn't oxidated through the mouth, only through the nose and this prevents congestion.

[Hidden in reply to Reb0013]

My apologies, you may be using a different definition of congestion than is usual. Congestion is caused by narrowing of airways most often due to inflammation and excess mucus as in "nasal congestion", e.g. when you have a cold.

Perhaps you mean "obstruction".

The air you breathe in through your mouth has the same 21% oxygen as you breathe in through the nose.

[Reb0013 in reply to Hidden]

Hi Manerva, no problem... but to clarify what happens when I breathe through my mouth is the turbinates inside the nostrils swell and obstruct air passage. There are (3) sets or turbinates in each nostril. All (3) swell and obstruct air passage... like a cork literally stuck in my nose... I called it congestion but it is not really congestion. The turbinates are designed to cleanse and humidify air when it passes through the nostrils.

[Hidden in reply to Reb0013]

This does sound like congestion. If your turbinates actually swell then this sounds like an inflammatory. reaction, i.e. a thickening of the mucosal lining. This can become worse when you lie down as blood flow to them is increased.

This can be caused by an allergy, overuse of nasal anti-congestants or air condioning.

Treatment can incude a steroidal nasal spray, antihistamines (not recommended if you have RLS). or surgery, (removal of bone).

Obstructive sleep apnoea however is usually due to a collapse of the airways in the throat. This will block air getting in through both nose and mouth.

You can have both!

Treatment for OSA includes CPAP or a gum shield like device aimed at keeping the airway open which is what you are going to try.

I do hope it works for you AND has a positive effect on your RLS.

[Reb0013 in reply to Hidden]

I will post my experience with the dental appliance by the sleep lab. It is being made as I type, pick it up in 2 weeks. I consulted with my ENT about RF to reduce the size of the turbinates. He said the success rate is not very high because the turbinates will "grow back" in approx 1-3 yrs for most all who undergo the procedure. I have extra A/C filters and no pets so I feel my sleeping environment is very good. I do live in Florida with very high humidity and boy when it rains I have to use flonase... other than than I use a neti pot with a little warm salt water occasionally. I do find that sleeping on an elevated wedge with my pillow atop that gives me much relief because as you pointed out, the blood flow is easier on the nose being elevated.

[Hidden in reply to Reb0013]

Let us know how you get on with the dental appliance.

[DicCarlson]

That is a low number for % saturation and low ferritin could be a big contribution to RLS. Oral supplement with ferrous bisglycinate chelate is the way to go. If you cannot absorb the iron there is a patch from Patch MD - bypasses the gastro system...

patchmd.com/iron-plus-topic...

[Reb0013 in reply to DicCarlson]

Thank you for the information - I didn't know the patch by passes the gut! I ended up having an iron infusion a few weeks ago and will see how long this holds - in the event I need supplementation after a few months I will research the patch!!