Rheumy does not believe vitamin K is useful

[Broseley]

Just got back from my first rheumy appointment. I grilled him about all sorts if things including should I take Vitamin K with my calcium. He said there is no evidence to suggest that it has any use as there have been no "blind clinical trials". I told him I had read it on this forum and he said "people on forums think they're experts but they're not" . I would like to have some evidence to show him next time I see him. Any links welcome! Thanks

[jinasc]

nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-...

He could be right or wrong - looks to me as though the jury is out. As I am on warfarin and was warned bout Vit K. I wondered why (this happened around 4 or 5 years ago) so I looked it up. That link is on the NHS website. Quite possibly webmd will have something as well.

[Broseley in reply to jinasc]

Thanks, I also found that. I'm on apixaban but that seems to be ok. I found ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl... which is useful, but no blind trials.

[Koalajane]

I take it you were referring to k2 with natto

[Broseley in reply to Koalajane]

Sorry what's natto?

[Koalajane in reply to Broseley]

The k2 I use is mk 7 from natto extract , which is Japanese and fermented

[Broseley in reply to Koalajane]

No, mine just comes in the calcium and vit D tablets.

[jinasc]

This was interesting - Doctors weighing in..........

thedoctorweighsin.com/the-e...

"There are many shades of gray that have to be considered—up to and including the fact that a double-blind trial isn't always able to establish drug efficacy".

Just thought you might like to see it. Signing off.

[DorsetLady PMRGCAuk volunteer]

Here are another couple of articles -

medicalnewstoday.com/articl...

vitamin

healthline.com/nutrition/vi...

healthline.com/nutrition/vi...

But probably not good enough for him, Does he need a blind clinical trial for everything he agrees to….what about anecdotal evidence?

[Broseley in reply to DorsetLady]

He basically told me PMR is a simple disease compared to others eg RA and therefore hasn't had much research done into it. It sounds like he wasn't much interested in it really. Though I guess if they're going to recommend a drug, even as a supplement, they have to have objective, empirical evidence.

[DorsetLady PMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to Broseley]

Perhaps you should find another Rheumy who is interested.

[Broseley in reply to DorsetLady]

Easier said than done. If it hadn't been for the GCA I probably would have had to wait a year like my hubby with lupus.

[DorsetLady PMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to Broseley]

Hmmm / very difficult

[Bridge31 in reply to Broseley]

Such a simple disease . I think we are all agreed on that conclusion.

[Bridge31 in reply to Broseley]

Perhaps you should suggest he listens to the Podcast Mrs. Nails posted yesterday.healthunlocked.com/api/redi...

[Lilly-Gee in reply to Bridge31]

Send him the podcast it’s excellent. Thanks to MrsNails 👏👏👏👏

[Broseley in reply to Lilly-Gee]

I told him about it. But I have no means of sending it to him.

[Suffererc in reply to Bridge31]

Wish I could get a hard copy of that. Couldn’t hear it. Am deaf.

[Bridge31 in reply to Suffererc]

Ah! There must be a way. I will look into it.

[Suffererc in reply to Bridge31]

Thank you 😊

[Bridge31 in reply to Suffererc]

I have emailed the people concerned and they are going to send me a transcript

[Broseley in reply to Bridge31]

That would be helpful to give to my rheumy, thanks.

[Bridge31 in reply to Suffererc]

I have posted the transcript today. If you miss it send me a private message and I will send it to you.

[Broseley in reply to Bridge31]

Thanks.

[Suffererc in reply to Bridge31]

Thank you. Have now found and read. I found it very interesting.Thank you again for getting me the script. I am sure a few others have found it good too. 😊😊😊😊😊

[Broseley in reply to Bridge31]

Thanks, I have finally found time to listen to this, it is great to hear them talk about the symptoms and issues that we've all experienced. Makes you feel less alone somehow.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Broseley]

Ah well - the conclusions being come to by a set of experts in PMR is that it is a far more complex illness than they thought! That includes rheumies in the UK, Italy, the USA and Australia.

[Broseley]

Good points, thank you. That's why I trust the many members of this forum who have experienced the disease for themselves and not one rheumatologist who has formed his own ideas.

[agingfeminist]

sorry if somebody has already given this link.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl...

A review of small randomized control trials - consistent findings, enough to justify the usefulness of K2.

[Maisie1958 in reply to agingfeminist]

Thank you for this agingfeminist . I’ve had a quick look through but have saved it to read again with my second cup of coffee of the morning. It’s very interesting.

[Suffererc]

Think that applies to AA as well. Couldn’t be proved it actually helps

[Viveka]

"people on forums think they're experts but they're not" That's a big warning sign about how this rheumy thinks. I hope they were excellent clinically, but failing to understand the importance of collective lived experience plus the fact that committed people who aren't medically qualified can amass a huge amount of expertise is arrogant. Of course we have to take responsibility about what information we take from forums but that applies to doctors just as much!

[Broseley in reply to Viveka]

I agree. Especially as all I had had up to that point was a diagnosis, prescription, and a chat on the phone to the GP about how to take the meds. I then had to wait a month to see the rheumy. Obviously I'm going to look for information and help elsewhere. You feel so isolated.

[Poppy_the_cat]

Here in the UK 'doctors' seem to think Nutrition is nothing to do with them ! I am not surprised...

[TB1208]

I had a medication review with a pharmacist who also told me it would be of no benefit.

[PMRnewbie2017]

There is a book The Calcium Paradox by Kate Rheume-Bleue available cheaply on Amazon and in Kindle versions. It goes into a lot of detail about Vitamin K2 MK7and diet and dentition in nutritionally deprived groups of people. Worth a read.

[Broseley in reply to PMRnewbie2017]

Thanks

[Poshdog]

Perhaps he'll get it one day

[Omanain]

Arrogant ***

[Boss302Fan]

First it’s Vitamin K2 and doesn’t include Vitamin K1. Need to be specific when discussing. Also needs to be paired with adequate amount of Vitamin D3 in the body. Additionally the maximum daily amount of Calcium as a supplement is important as is the max individual dose.

As to blind studies I haven’t found any. The decision is a personal one. But like MTX from what I read it takes 3-4 months to be effective and at least 180 mcg K2 needs to be taken Daily.

[Broseley in reply to Boss302Fan]

Thanks that's really useful. Mine only has 37micrograms.

[Boss302Fan in reply to Broseley]

Here’s the excerpt which is below where 32mcg was mentioned. I do apologize because I stated months delay with taking K2 before realizing benefit when it is reported as “2 Years”!

“One recent, double-blind, randomized clinical trial investigated the effects of supplemental MK-7, MenaQ7 (NattoPharma ASA, Hovik, Norway), within a 3-year period for a group of 244 postmenopausal Dutch women.54 The researchers found that a daily dose of 180 mcg was enough to improve bone [emphasis mine] mineral density, bone strength, and cardiovascular health. They also showed that achieving a clinically relevant improvement required at least 2 years of supplementation. [emphasis mine].”

[Broseley in reply to Boss302Fan]

Thanks that's really helpful!