How Covid-19 spreads indoors - especially restaurants/pubs or at home with friends round for dinner

[PMRpro]

This appeared in our local online paper yesterday - so I have translated the article for you to read if you are interested.

stol.it/video/media/so-brei...

Japanese scientists have used supercomputers to simulate various scenarios and come to new conclusions: the rate of infection is doubled if the air is dry compared to more humid air. That means humidifiers are useful if you can't air the room thoroughly in winter. They also showed that people wearing visors spread considerably more aerosols than people wearing material masks. Sitting at a table the person sitting next to you is more likely to infect you than the person sitting opposite you. Choirs should be limited in number and have larger distances between the members. Scientists say that the corona virus is mainly spread by the tiny droplets we expel when speaking, singing and sneezing. These so-called aerosols can float in the area for hours if the air is still and anyone who breathes them in can become infected.

Which all accounts for how weddings (for example) and bars pose a problem - even if the venue has done its best with anti-covid measures. The people forget ...

[DorsetLady PMRGCAuk volunteer]

Very interesting about person sitting next to you rather than opposite is most likely to infect.

I think most people would assume the opposite.

[Rache in reply to DorsetLady]

Yes, I would have thought that. I think I’ve read somewhere that sitting opposite means since your breath is directed at the person in front of you, it is the most likely direction of transmission.

[Jan_Noack in reply to Rache]

I guess you tend to teurn and speak to the person beside you hen dining..hence directed at them.

[Theziggy in reply to DorsetLady]

I took that to mean if the person sitting next to you was wearing a visor as opposed to a face mask.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Theziggy]

Yes - but in a restaurant the requirement to wear a mask lapses - difficult to eat with a mask on!

[Theziggy in reply to PMRpro]

I see, interesting the way it spreads more easily sideways. Though I won't be in a restaurant for the foreseeable future, outs are all closing down tomorrow for 4 weeks (and maybe more)

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Theziggy]

Two villages locally have been locked down - weddings and another celebration have caused massive spikes relative to the population. One has over 100 cases in a total pop of 1800! The restaurants can stay open in the day though - so workers can have their hot meal at midday.

Do find Italy being crossed off the UK jolly holiday list a bit of a cheek - under 10,000 cases per day compared with 3x that in the UK!

[123-go in reply to PMRpro]

Right hand left hand 🤚✋️ 🤷‍♀️

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to 123-go]

Looks more like no hands to me ...

[123-go in reply to PMRpro]

Laughs hysterically!

[123mossie in reply to PMRpro]

😂

[Constance13 in reply to DorsetLady]

I agree! However, if you were sitting two metres away you should still be alright. (Or not)?!?

[DorsetLady PMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to Constance13]

Depends what day it is! 😳

[Constance13 in reply to DorsetLady]

😂😂

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to DorsetLady]

And the position of the pole star. never mind the runes ...

[DorsetLady PMRGCAuk volunteer in reply to PMRpro]

....and which way the wind’s blowing 💨

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Constance13]

That was the point of the comment I made about the graphic from early in the pandemic. It depends on the airflow: if you are in one place for any length of time and downwind of someone infected you are at risk

[Jan_Noack in reply to Constance13]

no 2 meters just reduces to a more manageable infection rate. the old 4o ft pole away outdoors and not standing downwind . Inside anywhere the air cond vent blows or else the further the better, but try not to sit under a vent blowing on you.(that's where visors with tight fitting at the top may help). Usually as COVID is a large virus it will precipitate to the floor if humidity is greater than about 80% .. but it's still on the floor and can be moved by walking.

[herdysheep in reply to Constance13]

2 metres and a hearing issue means more shouting - might as well sing!

[Constance13 in reply to herdysheep]

I don't go into the hairdressers or supermarkets but just occasionally I feel like going into a flower or DIY shop - just to feel "normal" (if you can remember what that means).😊 I then wear a thin face mask and a visor.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Constance13]

I desperately NEED a hair cut - was told so yesterday by a friend! But ...

[Constance13 in reply to PMRpro]

Your's is a bit different to mine. I'm lucky (first time I've said that in my life) - my hair is very fine and not thick. A friend of mine cuts it - it's not perfect but it'll do. I'm not likely to be seen by many.

Can't you find a hairdresser to visit you? You could sit on the balcony, buy a visor and ask her to use it over her mask. Bit expensive if they visit you at home - but once in a while?

Anyway - who do we need to impress? I'd bye a bandana or soft head band and scrag my hair back - they're very pretty! You might brighten OH's day too!!😂

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Constance13]

It's expensive enough going to her!! I imagine she uses both mask and visor and the salon only has her and her partner and their clients - not a crowded or small place. Your appointment is an hour and rarely overlap - it is just I hate the hairdresser anyway! And I wanted to grow it a bit - don't want it short for the winter now.

[Constance13 in reply to PMRpro]

Sounds like the one I go to. I even lie down while she washes my hair - no more stiff or painful neck. I'm too lazy to go though!😂

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Constance13]

She has an almost flat recliner with massage function - best bit of the entire performance!

[borednow in reply to PMRpro]

A "friend" ???!!!!

[Constance13 in reply to borednow]

Why? Haven't you got any?🤪💐💐

[borednow in reply to Constance13]

It would seem not.

[Constance13 in reply to borednow]

😂😂

[Constance13 in reply to borednow]

I meant to add "real" friends tell you the truth and you know they are not going to upset you.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to borednow]

Veronica IS a friend - and like me, very honest! She is quite right - as it is at present it does make me look 10 years older!

[borednow in reply to PMRpro]

Oops! Sorry, didn't mean to cause offence. Was supposed to be a joke - note to self, engage brain before opening mouth (or typing).

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to borednow]

Didn't take offence at all - I'd thought exactly the same as I wrote it

[Constance13 in reply to PMRpro]

Didn't you ask Veronica to do it? Even she could make you look '5' years younger.

Pay the hairdresser! Who want's to look 10 years older?

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Constance13]

It's fine - I FEEL 20 years older ...

[Constance13 in reply to PMRpro]

Oh dear! Things are THAT bad still??

[YuliK in reply to PMRpro]

PMRpro. I use a hand mirror and scissors in the bathroom.

Well truth be known, it’s difficult to raise my arm sometimes when a flare is taking place ..hence I look like the wreck of the ‘Hesperus ...zigzag hair cut. 😂

[Telian]

Thank you, all useful info.

[Mary63]

Thanks very much. Very useful.

[Bcol]

Really interesting, seems to go against what would seem obvious. Thank you.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Bcol]

Often the case. I had a graphic right at the start showing how Covid spread in a restaurant just because of the air flow in the room with almost everyone at one adjacent table catching it and noone at another at 90 degrees difference.

[Bcol]

Yes it just goes to show, I suppose as usual, that good research with relevant graphics is very important, rather than by just relying on what seems to be sensible common sense.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Bcol]

Modelling that takes know facts into consideration is very useful. But modelling that ignores existing facts can cause mayhem. As we have seen ...

[altywhite]

Thanks for that, yes interesting, especially about the person sitting next to you.

[Theziggy]

Interesting animations about how it spreads

youtu.be/WZSKoNGTR6Q(Not working as expected?)

youtu.be/ZvLFz1KSYMA(Not working as expected?)

youtu.be/CRmxvgRB7e0(Not working as expected?)

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Theziggy]

That last one is a bit yuk!! Reminding us how revolting some people can be ...

[Longtimer in reply to Theziggy]

Interesting but conflicting to what we sometimes read....especially the last one...I read recently that trials had been done about the virus being transmitted on doorknobs etc, it said not to worry about it, it disappears in minutes....then few days later it said it was several hours before it goes....so this is why people are fed up with "mixed messages" from the so-called experts.....

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Longtimer]

The dispute is mainly about dose and what it is they measured. They can detect it is virus - but is it viable or just fragments and if it is viable how much. The more live virus is floating around you the more serious any infection is likely to be - and why medical staff tend to get pretty sick. It is all a steep learning curve - and that why it is up to each person to assume everyone else is infected and has disgusting habits ...

[Longtimer in reply to PMRpro]

I certainly do, it's those others!...😏

[HeronNS in reply to Longtimer]

webmd.com/lung/news/2020090...

[Longtimer in reply to HeronNS]

Thank you for that.....interesting.

[Estellemac]

Or sing the Lords Prayer at a funeral? They did a u turn on that this week. Wonder whats next?

[daisylazy]

Thanks PMR Pro very interesting article. So much to learn. Sorry to hear of OH extra medical problems and the extra burden on yourself caring for him. So good of you to take the time to help the rest of us.. Take care and stay safe.

[Kendrew]

Really interesting to read about the visor issue....and ties in with new guidelines issued to Essex schools.......that they have little if no significant effect in protecting you or others unless you're wearing a mask also.....and then they possibly will provide some added protection for eyes and 'direct hits' from sneezes, coughs etc. I did actually figure out that a visor alone was probably not going to be particularly effective, when I went to book a hair appointment and saw one of the hairdressers give a little cough and the sunlight streaming in through the window behind her showed very clearly a mist of 'droplets' expelled from her mouth, hitting the visor and then floating down and out the bottom of the visor, to land on the customers head!! Needless to say....I'll wait a little longer to have my hair cut!!

[Constance13 in reply to Kendrew]

Wow! Didn't think of that!

[borednow in reply to Constance13]

Me neither. OMG!

[Lonsdalelass in reply to Kendrew]

This really makes us wonder.... I've always thought masks were better than visors for that reason. Also, when a visor has been worn for a while you can see the deposits building up on the inside.. Not nice. I work two days in a school and have seen this for myself on others visors, personally I prefer a mask even though I get too hot and my specs steam up!! 🤣

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Lonsdalelass]

Put a bit of tape across the top taping it to the bridge of your nose - that's what surgeons do ...

[Lonsdalelass in reply to PMRpro]

Oh thanks for the tip! I'll try it. 😉

[Coffeebeans in reply to Kendrew]

Totally agree with hair dressing and visors. I follow Trisha Greenhalgh on Twitter and she is advocate of masks and not the visor for that reason.

[Dewdrop456]

Thank you. That’s very interesting.

[Kendrew]

OMG! Such a simple idea! Why couldn't I think of that! Haha!....we sometimes overthink things to find a solution when in actual fact.....simple solutions are right in front of our noses!! 😂😂 Thanks again PMRPro.

[PMRpro Ambassador in reply to Kendrew]

There was a reply when we talked about masks early in the story of Covid - several hacks from the professionals. I'm fine with my mask pulled up towards the top of my nose when I have my sunglasses on - they have much deeper lenses than my everyday distance specs. Smearing a bit of soap over the lenses is also supposed to work.

youtube.com/watch?v=cQ9dhkG...(Not working as expected?)

is long but checks out the effectiveness of the hack too!

youtube.com/watch?v=L_bncNn...(Not working as expected?)

comes with UK surgeon -approval

A retired optician says in the comments to use HAND SOAP not detergent which will damage the lens coatings you probably paid a fortune for!

[Kendrew]

Thanks PMRPro.

[GOOD_GRIEF]

Imagine how I look growing out the pixie I've been wearing in various permutations for the last 30+ years. I didn't even own a bobby pin, much less a headband.

Ordered some stuff on Amazon, but I have no idea what to do with it except to keep the hair out of my eyes.

Finally gave up and got a cut back in August when our infection rates here were minimal. The style is a bit less severe and exacting, making the growing out less awkward.

Still feel like a mess, though.