I have just read an interesting article and watched a short video explaining how B12 comes from bacteria. Humans even produce B12 in our large intestine but it gets excreted rather than being absorbed. It says that due to hygienic practices in vegetable production these days, and the use of pesticides etc. we are not getting enough from plant-based food.
It says that the B12 found in fortified food and in supplements is a crystalline form which is much easier to digest. The article is from an American vegan website so they are advocating a vegan diet, and say as long as you keep an eye on your B12 levels, eat fortified food and take supplements if required, you should get enough. What do you all think?
a) there are many different forms of B12 but only 4 are bio-accessible - meaning that the human body can use them as a source for the B12 it needs for processes running in cells - these are cyano, hydroxy, methyl and adenosyl forms.
b) it is a bit confused about 'crystalline forms of B12' - so a bit misleading in making broad statements that people with absorption problems will be okay on these supplements - the evidence suggests that many people are okay with supplements used for maintenance but there are actually significant numbers of people (up to 60%) for whom this isn't an effective treatment.
c) this forum is about Pernicious anaemia (and potentially other B12 absorption problems). This is distinguished from dietary deficiency because this can be corrected by dietary interventions (though a severe deficiency may require initial medical intervention in the form of injections to correct/prevent permanent nerve damage).
Thank you for that and all the work the moderation team does to create a space we can find a way to heal!
Being honest I sometimes get unappreciative of the value this forum to me. I will be more aware that it not all about me.
Also being honest I am hopeful that "Dietary deficiency is off topic for this forum." will lead the forum away from what at times seems to me about the veterinarian lifestyle than those that did not choose to experience B12 deficiency.
I think that unless you know exactly what you are doing, cutting out a whole food group is a bad idea. I've seen so many people who go vegan without doing any research end up with B12 deficiency and anemia a few years down the line. When I was working in a G.P. practice going back a while, when being vegan was trendy, it happened often.
But if that's the route you want to take, and you do the research to make sure that you aren't lacking in nutrients, then fair play.
Yes I agree. I do eat meat, just not every day. I just wondered what everyone thought about the article and the crystalline form of B12 in fortified food and supplements. I am finding that oral supplements have helped me a lot so I wondered how I seem to absorb the B12 in these and not in meat/fish so much.
Most B12 supplements contain orders of magnitude more B12 than you would get from animal foods. Multivitamins aside, it takes a bit of digging to find supplements supplying only B12 with doses lower than 25mcg.
Speaking as a vegan of 20 years or so, I would not rely on sites such as forks over knives for nutrition information. The documentary from which the site is derived had significant shortcomings from a nutrition science perspective but it would take some time and be off-topic to explore fully. Send my a pm if that interests.
However, several pieces of information you mentioned are correct - B12 is indeed produced by bacteria. And bacteria in the human large intestine do indeed produce B12 but that is past the site of absorption (the end of the small intestine).
B12 is not naturally present in most plant foods, although there are rare exceptions, most of which are not accessible to the general public, such as duckweed. It is technically possible that some fermented foods, prepared in a specific manner, may contain B12. That's a lot of if's and but's which are not phrases you want to rely on when it comes to your B12 intake.
One of most damaging myths of the plant-based community is that humans WOULD be getting enough B12 from plant sources, but due to hygiene, we no longer get enough B12 that way. There is little evidence that this is the case and besides, the practices which keep our food clean and safe are necessary to avoid transmission of serious disease.
Lets talk about "crystalline B12" and digestion. It is true that B12 from fortified foods and supplements can be absorbed more easily, this is because, in the case of animal foods, stomach acid or digestive enzymes must cleave the B12 from the animal protein in order for it to be absorbed. Normally this works well in healthy people but when issues with stomach acid or digestive enzymes occur, absorption may not work that well if dietary B12 is only from animal sources.
However, in the case of PA, dietary absorption of B12 is largely "broken" and can only happen through "passive absorption" which is at about 1% of any dose, so very large amounts are needed. Many with PA on this forum do not find that oral B12, at any volume, is sufficient to alleviate their symptoms and injections are often necessary and recognized as the most effective treatment.
If you don't have PA or any absorption issues that would affect intrinsic factor, then yes, you can get more than enough B12 from fortified foods and supplements.
But this is a forum for those with PA, who do have issues with dietary absorption of B12 so this isn't really an option for most members, although some DO get by on high dose oral treatment.
Thank you so much for the detailed reply Technoid. I have not been diagnosed with PA but do have gastritis and did have anaemia until I started on supplements, so it is good to know that I am doing the right thing by taking them, and many of my symptoms have improved too. I will continue taking supplements and hope that the remaining symptoms also improve.
....and of course, the proportion of the population with PA will include those whose diet naturally contains B12 (extrinsic factor), those whose diet doesn't but who supplement with tablets, those who have never heard of B12 - and probably even those who eat seaweed by the bucketload !
Dance_queen : It would be interesting to know what proportion of the forum do have a medically-confirmed PA diagnosis. This seems to have become increasingly difficult to obtain.
It is my understanding that in the context of this article about vegetarianism the term crystalline form of B12 means the compounds of cyano or hydroxy or methyl or adenosyl are in a crystal form and not in solution.
This would include oral supplements that are not in solution, capsules etc.
It would also include a crystalline/solid form compounds mixed with food to process the food to fortify the food that is designed to prevent dietary deficiency which is off topic for this forum.
It is often stated that it is always better to get nutrients from food which I find true if ones body can do so. Stating that it is better to eat processed food that has a minimum amount of B12 mixed in or sprayed on rather than take supplements in an amount to sufficiently treat B12D not caused by dietary choices is harmful. It is also disrespectful to those who are or have suffered the symptoms of B12D not caused by diet choice.
There is no reason to believe that cyano or hydroxy or methyl or adenosyl when sprayed on or mixed with food is superior to a supplement that is not. The B12 in processed food is exposed to heat, light and moisture which is know to downgrade the effectiveness of B12. The degree of this degradation is unknown.
Thank you WIZARD6787. Just to clarify, I am not a vegetarian or vegan, I eat meat/fish/eggs…but I do have gastritis and anaemia. I just happened to come across the article when researching B12 supplements, because my GP will not give me injections.
So I'm confused here, you are having the underlying problems with your stomach are you now struggling with B12 symptoms and perhaps I've missed if you've had a blood test confirming this???There's the other option of self injecting and I'm sure there's other folk on here who can guide you through this practice, I don't know why I've managed to get my 3 monthly injections as it was several years ago I've been put onto this routine, but obviously I had various symptoms and now find when my time towards getting my injection I get various symptoms, muscles twitching, eye lids flickering, a deep rumbling sensation in my chest and general tiredness, it's essential to keep on top of these conditions, people who have B12 deficiency are the silent ones at a doctor as often it's not taken seriously enough.
I think maybe my conditions was caused through long term stomach problems, taking omeprazole over a long period, and having to many general anesthetics, and possibly age, I would be in seriously trouble if I didn't get my injections, and at one point my doctors were trying to stop this a few years ago, however I explained that my symptoms were never going away towards my injection calendar slot, perhaps be a bit more persistent at your doctor if you require the injections, best of luck!
Sorry for the confusion Cb1963, yes I started getting heart palpitations and muscle fatigue a year ago, then developed numbness and tingling in my hands 7 months ago. I was found to be anaemic. My B12 was 264 which is in range (211-911), IF antibodies was negative, so doctors will not say I have B12 deficiency. Even a private neurologist said ‘it’s not B12, likely carpal tunnel syndrome. Other symptoms are not related!’ I know I’m not alone with this problem
So I decided to try supplements myself, most symptoms have improved a lot! - numbness and tingling, heart palpitations and fatigue. I might still need injections to heal completely, so I’ll keep trying. If not, I know SI is an option. Thank you for your support and glad you have the help you need. 🙂
Ah , I see, I've also got long term neuropathy, and the symptoms can be very much the same and it can mask the B12 deficiency, some doctors are prescribing B12 tablets and many people can't even absorb this different method,yes all down to cost cutting exercises, but don't ignore your symptoms, it can cause long term damage especially if your blood work isn't within the range and obviously it's difficult to keep on asking for a blood test at your doctor, bit of a nightmare situation but I hope you stay healthy and happy, kind regards 😀
Cobalt is widely but sparingly spread in soil. Nitrogen fixing bacteria exchange Cobalt for sugary exudate in plant roots. Plants use cobalt for all sorts of processes including photosynthesis and bud growth. Animals eat plants. Bacteria in animals guts do the work that combines lots of hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon and a little bit of phosphorus and a magic atom of cobalt to make vitamin B12. That gets absorbed by the animal. We eat the animal, it's eggs or drink its milk, or worst case eat its 💩. To get optimal levels of vitamin B12, c 4-5 mcg, you need roughly an 8oz steak, or 6oz of fish, or 4 eggs, or 3/4 lb of cheese, or 1 pint of milk, or 2oz of liver per day. Don't know how much 💩. 😁
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