Hi All
This video is a breath of fresh air.
vimeo.com/891099138/4150efa...
New and old forum members should get a brew and watch. So insightful.
Understanding methylation issues has been a key factor in my recovery. A separate post when I am able to concisely explain what I have experienced - unexpected leap forward for me.
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Thanks Dot,
I’ve been waiting to refresh on this man’s work. Woohoo.
All the best, treasure.
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Hi Narwhal
Ironically I have stumbled by trial and error onto the path he outlines for recovery so I will be researching his work even more.
He adopts a more holistic approach for the full climb to recovery than the private consultant I saw - so Dr K was base camp and Dr M is the assent of Everest! I feel I can see the peak!
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Brilliant, should be mandatory viewing for all GPs. Just so sad that most won’t even be interested. Hopefully just some might be interested in sitting down for an hour and taking on board.
Thank you so much for posting this excellent video!!! I learned so much!!!
Thanks for posting the link to this. It was really excellent. I think it should be mandatory for all GPS at least once a month. I am going to send it to my friend who is a surgery nurse and also a fellow b12 advocate.
Wow!... I would love to be on his GP List !
Thanks so much Wwwdot, what a great vid and wonderful insight. It makes me feel better about my own loading/maintenance regime.
I was very interested to hear of Dr Morris's warning on being very wary of using Folic Acid/Folate Trapping... what did you think...?
Hi Treesong
I would love him to be my GP too. I am going to send the podcast to my GP and BEG him to watch it - particularly as he keeps telling me he has no experience of PA. I feel like saying "Hey, what about me?"!!!
Dr Morris is spot on with folic acid in my case. I could not understand why I was needing so much B12 until I had a DNA methylation test and it showed that I don't methylate folate well - so natural or synthetic is a waste of time for me - I can get it into my blood but then its a dead end (my layman's understanding).
I was advised by my functional nutritionist to ditch the folic acid and to replace with methyl-folate. She recommended Seeking Health, L-5-MTHF L-methylfolate 1,700 mcg - 2 on waking.
She also recommended other supplements which I am still taking.
Before taking her advice I was having to inject 4 or 5 times a day, depending on physical and mental activity. 7 weeks in to the supplementation, I am now down to once a day with no deficiency symptoms. The outcome of being able to reduce from 4 to 1 jab a day was TOTALLY unexpected and way beyond my wildest dreams.
I am loathe to go to every other day with the B12 until I have had a chat with the Functional Nutritionist because, in the past when I have tried to run before I could walk, the horrible night time anxiety and panic attacks creep in and I do not want to go to that scary place again, if I can possibly help it.
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Should we forget about trying folic and folate and save time and money by going straight to methyl folate or is it not that simple in that some of us will have problems with the methyl form?
Hi Noelnoel
I sent this to PlatypusProfit
"Think of the methyl/folate folic cycle as a coffee machine - your machine is possibly broken so even though you add coffee beans (folate) or ground coffee (folic acid) no coffee emerges but folate in the blood (machine innards) - so as you need a coffee you buy a ready made one (I like Greggs) ie methyl folate."
I am an engineer not a medic - so my engineering logic to answering your question is as follows:
The body converts folic acid and folate to methylfolate because the body NEEDS methylfolate for the B12 to do its role. So my logic would be to simply try methlyfolate for a month and see what happens - I noticed a difference to how much B12 I needed after around 3 weeks of taking methlyfolate.
I suppose the question is whether you can take too much methylfolate and what does the body do with any excess? I will ask the Functional Nutritionist when I see her next which I hope will be in the next 14 days of so. But perhaps more medically skilled and knowlegeble peeps on the forum may know?
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I was able to visualise your description, which is helpful, so thank you
My husband saw Dr Klein recently at his clinic. On our way to the clinic pharmacy I read the prescription and saw folic acid. I questioned it but the pharmacist hadn’t heard of methylfolate amd replied that Dr Klein only ever prescribed folic acid
Now, during the appt I’d heard him refer to folic acid but thought, I’m sure he means methylfolate but is using the more widely known term, folic acid because of course we’re pkebs and don’t know the difference
Anyway. hubby dutifully took the folic acid while I continued on methyfolate. Will watch the video with interest
Hi Noelnoel
I was on folic acid too from same source and my GP. My blood indicated highest levels of folate but I was still v v tired and needing so much B12. I don’t think you can get methyl folate on prescription but I could be wrong - Narwhal10 any input?
It will be interesting to see my blood folate level at next blood test as I am not taking folic acid and I don’t think methyl folate converts backwards - @Narwhal10 input again?
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We buy our methylfolate so I’ve no idea if it’s available on prescription
My point was more about the fact he prescribed folic acid instead of advising we buy methylfolate
Hi Noelnoel
I am beginning to play with the thought that for short loading periods, enough folic acid is sufficiently converted to methyl folate BUT if like me and some others you extend the loading period AND/OR the frequency of doses then perhaps the folic acid - longer route - just takes too long and cannot match the rate required by B12. That’s my musings to date - sorry I didn’t explain my inner musings!
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No need to apologies, we all appreciate your “musings”. However, I can’t grasp what you’ve just said because of my confusion with the terminology
Loading periods: length of time between dose?
And of what? B12 or folic acid?
Frequency of doses: isn’t that the same as loading periods and if not, what’s the difference?
And again, of what? B12 or folic acid?
It’s not you, it’s my slow brain. I’m pretty sure everyone else knows what you mean because no one’s questioned it
Hi Noelnoel
I don't think its you at all - I feel privileged that you are taking a keen interest.
You are quite right that there are no clear definitions but this is what I mean.
I mean "loading periods" to be the lengths of time when for ME my body was calling for B12 ie from date of diagnosis and the first NHS loading doses of 6 injections to about 4 weeks ago. So for ME my loading period was approximately 20-22 months.
During my loading period my B12 dose increased from EOD (every other day) to Every Day then to Several a Day ie 4 a day and this was led by my body demand ie as soon as any symptom returned, I provided B12.
During my loading period of let's say 22 months, I can see from my notes that for approximately 12 months my B12 dose increased, and for 10 months my B12 dose plateaued or flat lined at 4 a day.
About 4-6 weeks ago I went into what I now call my reducing period where I was able to reduce my B12 dose from 4 a day to 1 a day. However, sometimes I need two a day as a symptom will return. For example, I woke up with facial neuralgia yesterday so I had two B12 doses yesterday. I slept very deeply last night suggesting to me that healing was taking place - there is no neuralgia this morning but I am deeply tired which again suggests that my body still needs a higher B12 dose. I know I was ok for a couple of weeks on 2 x B12 doses a day, so I think I will alternative for a while between 1 x B12 dose a day and 2 x B12 dose a day and see how my body responds.
Once I find a B12 dose that does not need to be increased or decreased I will call that my maintenance period ie a flat line at a low dose. At this stage of recovery, I don't know what the B12 dose in my maintenance period will be.
During my loading period, I matched my folate and iron and vitamin D to my B12 doses, so as I increased my B12 dose I increased my intake of folate and iron and Vitamin D. I also kept an eye on my potassium levels as I think because my loading period was so extended, my potassium level also dropped which is now corrected. I managed to persuade my GP to undertake blood tests every 6 months and I am aiming to get all co-factors into the upper average range - the only stubborn co-factor for me is ferritin.
My loading period and my B12 doses may have been different, ie shorter duration and lower doses, had I started taking methylfolate sooner. I have only been taking methylfolate instead of folic acid since June 2024, and it is since then that my rate of recovery has improved dramatically, moving from the the 4 a day B12 dose loading period plateau to now being in my reducing period.
I hope this makes sense, but PLEASE don't hesitate to ask if not!
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Yesterday, I stated, I’m not very good at Folate. Sorry Dot, I do not know.
Like you, I’m very tired. The heat is making me more weird. In person, like a doughnut, I claimed somebody had undertaken a Physiotherapy course. I knew they hadn’t, wanted to say Psychology but spouted rubbish instead.
Do not be afraid to buy Over The Counter. I can give you Facts and Figures of Budgets. Those 3 Strikes, Junior Doctors, Ambulance Drivers, Nurses cost the Tax Payer £1.5 billion.
It looks like the NHS GP’s are NOT going to accept the 22.3 % Pay Deal. This Industrial Action will bring the NHS to a complete standstill. When it does, it will cause absolute carnage.
Be prepared and spread the word.
😘
Narwhal
No need to apologise ... at all, ever. I love doughnuts!!
It may be worth trying methylfolate - I cant see what there is to lose.
As for the NHS, well, it currently takes 12 weeks to issue an appointment letter which arrives after the appointment date, it currently takes 12 weeks to write the outcome of a consultation to my GP by which time I have moved on and the contents are irrelevant!
I currently have nothing on prescription, as I cannot be bothered to ask for my 4 x B12 jabs a year - the NHS ones hurt like mad and I have a bruise for ages - at least self-injecting is less damaging.
I think the heat is affecting us all, I am tired today and I feel my eyelids wanting to close!
More strikes, not good ... we need to look after ourselves and each other. Row, row, row - we may get to the Olympics!!
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Wow this is a great resource!
I’ll need to watch/listen a few more times to get the nitty gritty but his understanding of the need for more frequent injections is gold!
I am still very much confused by the methyl/folate/folic thing. It’s been a steep learning curve just doing B12 this past 6 months
hi platypus
Think of the methyl/folate folic thing as a coffee machine - your machine is possibly broken so even though you add coffee beans (folate) or ground coffee (folic acid) no coffee emerges but folate in the blood (machine innards) - so as you need a coffee you buy a ready made one (I like Greggs) ie methyl folate.
I am an engineer not a medic - so my layman understanding!!
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Interesting! How do you find out that you can’t utilise folic/folate without the methyl part?
Hi PlatypusProfit
I did a DNA methylation test which was not cheap on the advice of the Functional Nutritionist I use because she suspected that one or more of my methylation cycles were compromised.
She was right. Since I have taken the supplements she recommended after the test results, of which one was methyl folate, I have improved from needing 4 x B12 injections a day to just needing 1. Yet my activity level is the same, if not better.
Hence, when I saw the Dr Morris video, I began to understand the reason for my unexpected improvement with less B12.
Hope this makes sense!
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Thank you for posting this. I love his uncomplicated approach. Most of our gps are mired in information and data that they don’t really understand while for most of us the solution is far simpler. If find the nhs/gp attitude is a greater problem than the deficiency itself.
Hi MorningMist
Quite an acute observation.
Dealing with unhelpful attitudes is tough and draining ON TOP OF dealing with the illness. It’s exhausting and until you have experienced it, it’s hard to appreciate how hard and demoralising and isolating it can be.
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I have just brazenly stolen that link and posted it on the Thyroid UK forum.
healthunlocked.com/thyroidu...
Thank you.
Thank you for that.
I was not happy about watching it at first. I did not want to do the work. I was also afraid it might lead to more study on my part being needed. He was in line with what I had discovered on my own through trials.
As a scientist who is not a hobbyist or technician, when ever I come across something that is in line with my understanding I am aware all that means is we both could be wrong. He has clinical experience to draw on that I do not. His patients are treated and heal. So I see his understanding of treatment to be confirmation which is nice for a change.
This doctor is a very skilled clinician and may be a gifted clinician. It is possible that he is a healer.
He is elite and it is not training that is just one part of his method a necessary part but training does not often lead to being elite.
Here is the thing. Doctors that are trained believe that they are elite and they all are in that they have the ability and have completed the training. This does not mean they are elite other than being able to be trained. An accomplishment that does not necessarily lead to being elite nor gifted or a healer.
Seems to me often when people instruct you should follow a doctor's advice they are mistakenly assuming the doctor is more than just trainable. It also seems that a doctor who can at least follow the check boxes available and is not a raging narcissist is seen as elite and they are simply competent which is rare in itself.
I have not done a thorough study of the video to see if it leads me to a different trial. I was struck that he was not about diet. "All diseases begin in the gut." Hippocrates 2,400 years ago. This doctor heals issues typically associated with gut issues by supplementation. I am watching the Gut Microbiome methodology that is currently in vogue and also the detox methodology. This is not new rather coming around again. It does seem to me that often those that promote the Gut Microbiome and it success also supplement which may be the reason for the success not diet. Or it may be diet that is not yet established.
Methylation pathways is new. For me it is B12, B6 in the form of P-5-P, Betaine and methyl folate. I am still working out concentration of B12, frequency and amount of B12 and the frequency and amount of B6 methylfolate and Betaine. This seems to be necessary at the cellular level and is different than the platitude what is important at the cellular level because I can actually supplement in a way that is beneficial at the cellular level.
Hi Wiz
I totally get the "please, no more homework!" response. I have a pile of books I have yet to read at the side of the bed and I think I would need a year or so and an extra brain and no doubt at LEAST one glass of red wine to muster the energy and enthusiasm to try to read more complex biological explanations!
My feeling is that there is no single silver bullet but I do believe that more than one supplement is needed AND depending on how damaged the gut is, in my experience, I needed to remove aspects of my diet that in a healthy gut are fine, but in my damaged, struggling barely functioning gut are just too much. I think until I changed my diet, the rate of damage was greater than the rate of repair. To be honest, it is academic and we are nothing if not pragmatists who simply (understatement I know!) what to seek our health pathway.
Continue rowing my friend, as you are an inspiration!
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My current approach to diet is that not having a 'bad' diet is pretty much a good diet and there is no exceptional diet that is currently known.
Spot on, Wiz - no such thing as bad foods - just bad timing to eat some foods!
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Thank you! I'll give this a watch tomorrow. Hope you are keeping well 😘
Hi ClaireWF
Yes doing well AND not suffering in the heat like last year - yes I am hot but no chest pains, or light-headedness like last year - so fingers crossed my thermostat is working better again!
I still would welcome a dip in the sea followed by an ice cold drink!
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Hi Dotty hope your as well as you sound I’m so pleased things are so improved for you.. i also stumbled across the methylated options so I started to use “Swiss biogergetics vitamin b complex plus,”
I was pretty rock bottom for a wee while there and full of negativity and despair ,I suffered the usual ive been doing this on my own for the last X years and I’m feeling s..t.y
These supplements (along with a better healthier diet shall we say lol ),have resulted in my losing 10 kg and my mood has improved hugely,
At some stage I will contact this lovely professional and try and get a better understanding of what I’m trying to do to stay well,I have that gut feeling we all like that he can shed some light on options for me now especially as I have the faulty DIO2 which no gp has been interested in helping me with prob because they not a clue how to. It’s all about missing links isn’t it but hard to decipher when your Ill and not the brightest bulb in the torch.
Thanks so much for this link it’s much appreciated and stay as positive and well as you can be. Take care xx
Wow! So many people come on this forum and are symptomatic from getting shots only once every 3 months. Why do they get them so infrequently? Check out this slide:
Hi Hockey-player
EXACTLY! Absolutely rubbbsh. Although I didn’t KNOW this 22 months ago but my body did!!
I did a layman’s calculation of my B12 needs based on a broken system, and EVERY OTHER DAY did not seem unreasonable on that basis alone.
Then I added in an assumed additional requirements for repair over and above basic general renewal and EVERY DAY did not seem unreasonable on that basis.
I then tried to work out duration of the loading phase by assigning a proportion of B12 to energy for activity rather than repair and depending on my assumptions it was YEARS.
That was how I came up with my very crude self-treatment rationale - to increase B12 as my body needed along with cofactors proportional to per dose of B12 and to allow a couple of years for the dosing regime to peak.
My dosing regimen peaked at 12 months and flat lined for 8 months. Then about 1 month ago MY BODY told me I was into the reducing B12 dose phase without the return of symptoms or loss of energy.
What I don’t yet know is what my maintenance dose frequency will be ie my low dose flat line - I am currently down from 4 x 1500ug injections EVERY day to needing only 1 x 1500ug injection and feeling good. Although had some facial neuralgia yesterday morning on wakening so very early days but cautiously optimistic!!
Thank you for this contribution- I think we should all print it off and take it to our GPs along with Dr David Morris’s video. What an amazing change even if 1% of GPs responded positively.
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Hi Hockeyplayer
Should have asked where did you get the slide from? What’s its source?
TIA
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At the top of this post, the original poster has a link to a talk. The slide is from that talk. The talk was very interesting.
Hi Hockey-player
That was me and my post 🤭🫢 - I thought it was another source saying the same thing!
Thank you for clarifying!
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That's a genuine classic Hockey_player . When nobody can explain the reason for a guideline you know there cannot have been much serious thought put into it!
I do so wish this Doctor could help my brother with M.S, b12 d or PA and possibly Subacute Combined Degeneration of spinal cord.
Hi Marymary
That would be wonderful and plan B is to share the information with current medical team, and plan C is to launch his own boat and ROW!
Sending warmest thoughts and positive wishes to you both.
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Thanks for the encouragement but he hasn’t seen any doctor for years they just keep sending the Gabapentin and Tramadol deliveries . No wonder he’s suicidal. He’s in a wheelchair now so nothing is easy. He’s trapped.
Do you know where this Doctor is based please?
It was very interesting and informative. I do wonder why he’s so against Folic Acid, as opposed to Methylfolate though, he doesn’t expand on that.
Hi Chickens
I have already shared this above to Noelnoel but happy to share again.
I am beginning to play with the thought that for short loading periods, enough folic acid is sufficiently converted to methyl folate BUT if like me and some others you extend and accelerate the loading period AND/OR the frequency of doses then perhaps the folic acid -which is a longer conversion route just takes too long and cannot produce methylfolate at the rate required by B12. That’s my musings to date.
I think Dr K sees patients at the start of their journey whereas Dr M is more involved with the whole journey. I likened it to Dr K being my base camp and Dr M helping assent to the top (thinking Everest here!)
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Thanks. Pat Kornic on the FB PA group seems to think Methylfolate can cause anxiety, so they recommend either Folic or Folinic. And I have to say since starting Methylfolate I have been getting mild anxiety back in the mornings. But it might just still be the starting phase, although I am 9 weeks into SI EOD with B12.
Hi Chickens
Yes apparently it can. Like most things there are pros and cons and we need to take a balanced approach and open mind when we supplement. There’s no substitute for good research.
Thank you for the heads up on this.
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hello Dot, thank you so much for this video. Given me a lot to think about. More testing needed too. xx
Wheres my delivery
Gluten and B12 deficiency 
