It's one I hadn't read before so thought I would post.
draxe.com/nutrition/vitamin...
P.s I am injecting daily. π π€
Overdose ! Really ? ? ?
b12vitaminstore.com/default...
I'm a confused Jillymo but like CliveAlive still injecting.
stichtingb12tekort.nl/engli...
I think I prefer the latter link.
Yes I've read that before.Confusing and contradicts
Much ado, etc.
? ? ? π€
"Much ado about nothing," which is to say that they are making a big deal out of nothing, is what I assume Shadowlight means.
Sorry, lynxis and Jillymo! Yes, that's what I meant, regarding the article. I'm not sure how I missed this.
I hope this finds you both well.
I work in SEO (Search Engine Optimization) and alot of internet content is based on the search terms people will put into Google rather than offering valuable information.
For instance, someone could write 'What are the overdose symptoms for B12' and if an article, like Dr Axe's article, has those words in it, Google may show this in the search results. This then leads a new customer towards Dr Axe and his company can try to sell them supplements through the article.
If you notice, the Dr Axe article doesn't explain much about any overdose symptoms. I guess there are some risks, like acne, when people inject alot in one go. But there are no known adverse reactions that we need to worry about.
Using 'Google Scholar' can help to uncover scientific articles that should hopefully put your mind at rest!
I'm certainly going to keep on injecting!!!
I intend to keep on injecting too.
I cant say I have heard of Google Scholar, but then I am no wizz kid when it comes to the net. I was considering injecting twice daily due to feeling so poorly and googled to see if it were safe to do so.
I found some very useful info on here posted some years ago about genetic testing and the aire gene which was informative for those like myself with various autoimmune conditions ! I have recently been tested for the aire gene nut told it could be 6mnths before the results.
The actual bylined author:
Christine Ruggeri
Staff Writer
Christine is a writer and nutrition counselor based in Northport, New York. She has a degree in Education with a concentration in English from Iona College, and received her health coach certification from the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Christine worked as a language arts and writing teacher for 10 years before joining the content team at Dr. Axe/Ancient Nutrition. Sheβs also a mother of two and certified doula, which adds to her passion for educating people in topics related to pregnancy and childrenβs health.
Thanks, good spot.
So 'A certified health coach'....otherwise a content writer and writing teacher..
Dear oh dear oh dear!
Anyone can call themselves a 'nutritionist'. I've no doubt that there are some out there who are good, but here in the UK, 'dietitian' is a protected title and users are registered by the HCPC. They must have a degree in dietetics, or a diploma in addition to their degree in something else.
Calling yourself a 'dietitian' whilst not being registered with HCPC is a serious offence, which is why we have 'nutritionists' out there.
A dietitian won't try to sell you anything!
I have been careful to avoid using some downright insulting terms, but I've been thinking them.
You are full of information - how interesting.
You might find this of interest it's in regard to autoimmune genetic testing -
medicalxpress.com/news/2015...
I have been tested and awaiting the results.
Afraid the link is truncated!
You could try right-click and Copy Link (or similar) - which might be available and work.
I have pasted it again - try now.
That worked.
Could be extremely valuable for those with symptoms that are, well, otherwise unexplained.
Indeed it could - such as mine. π€ I noticed both my sticky blood condition and hypoparathyroidism were mentioned ! I doubt if it will help me but I π it will help my children and others in the future.
You could have at least given me a clap for repasting which I thought rather clever of me. π€£
We will make a wizz kid of me yet. π
Sorry about that!
π¬
π
Whichever sort you wish!
Hi Jillymo
Thank you for posting. There is certainly a lot of hype around at the moment. A key sentence I think which puts the first article in context is this βPeople without a deficiency should not take megadoses of B12.β
There is absolutely no way I could contemplate not injecting every day at the moment as I am starting to see glimmers of hope and when I inject late I can tell as I am starting to feel the downhill effects.
The article says overdosing is very rare so what I take from this is that β¦ βit is very rare for people who donβt have a clinical need for B12 to take megadoses of B12 and find they have created a health problem!β Hallelujah!! Common sense between the lines! πππ
Well done for spotting this and sharing. π€π€
I also feel the ill effect if I inject late hence as to why I were wondering if I should inject twice a day. Many of my symptoms have improved but the numbness, stinging in my extremities remain which are worse at night. I think an overdose would be the least of my problems.
I am glad you spotted some common sense between the lines. π
Hi Jillymo
These shallow articles can be very unsettling and appear to be written with absolute insensitivity on how they can impact those suffering clinical B12 deficiencies. But never mind we have this group!
I had contemplated injecting twice a day but decided that I couldnβt face it. So I am trying a different approach and that is to take a high grade B12 (containing Methylcobalamin & Adenosylcobalamin) and see if that helps.
Though members on this forum I have begun to realise that our bodies may need more than one jigsaw piece (B12 Hydroxocobalamin) to fully recover. I will start in about a months time and I will let you know how I get on. So around end of July. π€π€π€
If you find it of benefit send me a bucket full. I added all the vits that were recommended by other's and even brought B12 with intrinsic to no avail. π
If honest I cant say I fancy injecting twice but now getting desperate just to feel a little better. π
I don't inject twice a day but I do inject two doses once a day (1.5mg/ml + 1mg/ml so 2.5mg in 2ml). I suppose I would get more benefit from spreading them out over the day but, even after 5 years, I still hate injections.
I have only just started in the last 2-3 weeks but it has made a marked difference. My plan from here is to drop down in 0.5mg increments to find what's best
I have been doing exactly the same and as you say couldn't bear the thought of injecting twice. I inject into the muscle and if not careful tend to bruise. The easiest for me is my left arm and right thigh of which I am running out of area for further injections.
This illness is a pain to manage, I find if I try to decrease the dose my symptoms return. You do what you feel is best for you.
Bless you. I know itβs a horrible feeling and so hard to try to fathom out what to do especially when you feel so rubbish. π€π€π€
Thanks for the links. The negative article is downright ridiculous. The fire sounds suspicious. I smell a rat!!!! .
Neither the site nor its author are very credible sources (while the dutch site are B12 experts) but we can take a look at the cited studies linked in the article to see if there is anything substantive to the claims.
None of the studies referenced are new.
The first study linked in the "overdose" section is a paper widely discussed on this forum:
"The pathophysiology of elevated vitamin B12 in clinical practice"
academic.oup.com/qjmed/arti...
Not to rework the ground on this too much again but the primary issue here relates to the fact that the article describes serious medical conditions which result in elevated levels of B12. The study is not saying that high B12 levels, in and of themselves, cause any of the conditions mentioned in the article.
As an aside, an interesting statement in the paper always strikes me:
"It has therefore been suggested that the current recommended daily intake for vitamin B12 may be inadequate to ensure genomic stability and that a vitamin B12 intake of 7 Β΅g/day, needed for a plasma level of 400 pg/ml would be more appropriate."
The second study linked concerns diabetic nephropathy (diabetic kidney disease) and showed that, among patients with nephropathy, supplementation of high dose B12, B6 and Folic Acid "compared with placebo resulted in a greater decrease in GFR and an increase in vascular events."
Effect of B-vitamin therapy on progression of diabetic nephropathy: a randomized controlled trial
jamanetwork.com/journals/ja...
There is a video from one of the researchers that is worth watching:
m.youtube.com/watch?v=A0qCn...
It does seem like there is evidence from this study that supplementing these three B vitamins at the dosages mentioned in the trial (2.5 mg/d of folic acid, 25 mg/d of vitamin B6, and 1 mg/d of vitamin B12) is harmful to those with diabetic nephropathy. The researchers speculate that this is due to the subject's reduced ability to clear excess of these vitamins due to their kidney disease. It makes sense to me that those with kidney disease should not be taking massive doses of anything considering their reduced ability to clear excess amounts. I also wonder if the B6 used was not the active form - there have been studies posted here that showed using inactive synthethic forms of B6 may compromise B6 status and hence, I speculate may be related to the B6 toxicities that are sometimes reported.
The third study is:
Maternal Multivitamin Intake, Plasma Folate and Vitamin B12 Levels and Autism Spectrum Disorder Risk in Offspring
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi...
This is an interesting study, and is covered well by the following article in The Atlantic.
theatlantic.com/science/arc...
Some excerpts:
"I spoke with one of the researchers, Dani Fallin, who is chair of the department of mental health at Johns Hopkins. She specified that the team did not have access to data that could correlate the use of supplements with the high levels of folate or B12 in peopleβs blood. βWe would want to understand why these women have such high levels of folate in their blood,β she explained, βwhether it's about fortification of foods, supplementation, genes and enzymes involved in metabolism, or a combination of those things.β
...
"Fallin told me sheβs done a lot of interviews in the last couple days, and that sheβs βslightly nervousβ that her findings will be misconstrued. βThere's this danger that the message would be that folate supplementation is bad. And that's not at all what we saw.β"
My takeaway from this is that they dont have concrete data that confirms that the use of supplements led to the high B12 or folate levels abserved. And as we know from the previous paper, pathophysiology of elevated B12 in clinical practice, elevated B12 not due to supplementation can have a number of serious causes which could well affect fetal health.
The last thing mentioned in that section is B12 side-effects, many of which I would dispute calling side-effects as they are typically seen when a B12 deficient person first gets injections and in many (but not all) cases, start to clear up and recede once the deficiency and bulk of reparable damage from it, is corrected.
There is no indication from any of the linked studies that it is possible to overdose on B12, which the rest of the article more or less admits. The only claim which has any worth that I see is the advice that patients with kidney disease should not take high dose B vitamins but I suspect that its the case that anyone with kidney disease should not be taking massive high doses of anything since they cannot easily clear the excess.
Other than that, there's not much to this article and seems like the usual B12 "overdose" scaremongering that seems to crop up now and without much evidence backing it up.
I feel if there was a risk of overdose many on here would be experiencing the ill effects. We constantly hear from other's on the forum of positive results once on injections, that is proof enough for me.
I have not been in the best of health of late and at present finding it difficult to absorb all the various studys. Its all very confusing for a fuzzy head such as mine. As Nackerpan said 'it is all very contradictive' and I have to agree. I shall read through your links with interest but unfortunately my head just does not substain the knoweledge - hence why I am not a reader I would never finish a book.
The ignorance with regard the treatment of PA is abysmal. Considering I have a wide variety of diagnosed autoimmune conditions together with an aray of gastro issues - not one of my Drs or consultants have taken this into consideration and joined the dots. My Gp who has now diagnosed me with Raynauds disease was checking my bloods for uric acid - included on the form was folate and B12 - this I have been prescribed for over two years! My results will be sky high and through ignorance of my medics no doubt my medication will be withdrawn due to my being a number on a wretched blood form.
None have noted how pale I am or looked at the colour of my gums or eyes. They watch as my health decreases and I stummble about my home - then have the audacity at the end of consultations or home visit to say enjoy the rest of your day or have a nice weekend ! If only I could.
I shall do what I feel is best for me and carry on injecting regardless.
I really do not know of anyone who has had any symptoms from B12 injections beyond initial spots, which I know for some can last quite a while beyond that. I know a few people have had problems with changing from one brand to another, possibly due to additional ingredients - but very few and this is not the same thing as ill effects from vitamin B12 itself. This is not information from research - just seven years of reading forum posts on an almost daily basis.
One of the biggest problems we face is the lack of awareness in the medical profession of the possible range and severity of B12 deficiency symptoms: It really isn't covered by "tiredness". So most of the lists of B12 symptoms include many B12 deficiency symptoms. Worse, this knowledge gap can often lead to misdiagnosis, the thinking being that it must be something more serious.
When I first went to the GP in 2015, it was with daily diarrhoea, lower back and left hip pain, exhaustion. Once bowel cancer was thankfully ruled out and B12 deficiency was found to be the "only" thing wrong with me, injections were administered. Some other problems, ones I'd never even mentioned as I'd thought irrelevant, started to improve. One, angular cheilitis, I'd had for over a decade fairly constantly - and ignored it.
But this is a visible symptom, like hair loss, like brittle nails with vertical ridges /cobbles and no cuticles, like pale skin - that all look like general malnutrition. We do still need to be seen - it's one diagnostic tool going very rusty currently.
If the medical profession don't know what the true list of symptoms might include, then there can be no surprise that patients' complaints be mistakenly considered as due to vitamin B12, rather than the deficiency being treated.
Those who are studying DNA to find inherited diseases have told me that, had they found a genetic cause for my raised MMA, they would have advised my GP to administer two B12 injections a week. They are well aware that this is the only means of keeping someone safe if their B12 is unable to make it to cell/tissue level normally. They also told me how disappointing it is when patients return in a deteriorated state because their GP has ignored this guidance.
So no concern from them about B12 - still all about the B12 deficiency.
Scientist, not medic.
Any article linked to adverts for tablets makes me wonder what's driving it. [As if I didn't know!]
Peer-reviewed articles in scientific literature are usually a better source of information [in my opinion, of course].
What an absolute load of nonsense.
After covid and the never ending horrific stories that everyone experiences on a personal level with b12 injections. I have no idea why people have any faith in the medical profession.
You cannot overdose on b12, you just urinate it out. Any side effects people experience is probably reversing out syndrome (as we can now heal after decades of b12d) or other vitamin deficiencies. Over 50% have zinc it vit d deficiency and majority of population also have a magnesium deficiency.
Can I also add that modern food is laced with dangerous chemicals, our water also has high levels of anti psychotic drugs, female birth control, pesticides and heavy metals. Perhaps modern diet is playing a role. Although I will probably get a ban for speaking the truth again.
Dr John Campbell has been highlighting most of what I have just said.
May I refer to this rather lengthy article. I can't remember where I found it though. My opinion is that the other supplements you take are the problem, especially folate and B6.
"What Is Vitamin B12? / Vitamin B12 Toxicity & Overdose"
Found it...
perniciousanemia.org/b12/to...
Great post - Tom, Dick or is it Harry ?
The link is a great read and easy to understand - it's one I can stick under my Gps nose when he tries to stop or reduce my injections.
Thanks, Jillymo .
It doesn't always stand up to much scrutiny.
For instance, if an article is warning people of the negative impact on unborn children from vitamins, it has to be a balanced article.
There was a link in this article to some research that tested maternal plasma at birth.
This categorised mothers who gave information that put them into groups of either low, medium or high supplementation of folate and B12 during their pregnancy. The results were apparently that low and high supplementation during pregnancy were associated with increased risk of ASD in their babies.
The interesting point was that, from this point on, the focus was on those with very high levels of maternal plasma at birth (both folate >60.3 nmol/L and B123 >536.8 pmol/L) showing an increased risk of ASD of 2.5 x , exactly the same risk increase for both folate and B12.
What I would want to know is why these women were taking very high supplements of either. What I'd also want to know is why low supplementation (not no supplementation) also has risks. But the risks with low supplementation were not the focus of this research, as it was no longer mentioned.
So where is the balance ?
There is, as we have seen discussed here, research that points to links between ASD and B12 deficiency. The article did not mention that either. As Pickle500 has said, you only find what you are searching for !
Like you, I'd prefer the risk of spots than the return of cognitive decline, short-term memory failure, joint pain, exhaustion, mood-swings, muscle loss, weakness and shaking, yawns, angular cheilitis, burning tongue, daily diarrhoea, lower back pain etc etc .....
so will stick with frequent injections.
Also noticed that one of your links (B12vitaminstore) started by saying that their stocks have all been compromised by a fire - and will not now be available !!! Is that another B12 avenue closed ?
Exactly, where is the β ?
The B12 symptoms at present are upon me with a vengeance, thankfully no burning tongue !
It seems our avenues for obtaining supplies are getting less, even some chemists are having difficulty !
Just imagine when they privatise the NHS how much it is going to cost us to sort ourselves out ? π± Or is that the method in their madness ? ? ?
I shant worry, at my age they will just kill me off as I am no longer any good to society. They will just stick a DNR label on me and cart me off to the tip.
You have used a very appt word ' control '. π€
Oh dear where is my happy head today ? Oh yes I left it amongst the brainfog. π«
Jillymo - I have been injecting twice a day for a little over a year now and my improvement has been dramatic over any of my other injection routines. Even on once daily I felt like I was just hanging on and at any time I could fall off the cliff. My GP, Hemotologist, and Endocrinologist have no problem with my routine and are happy to give me Rx's for it. I have recently switched from Hydroxo to Cyano due to an insurance issue, but so far feel no difference.
I am also flagging towards the end of the day and often feel as if in need of another shot. My Hematologist admits she knows nothing in regard to the treatment for B12 ! My Endocrine is simply not interested so as you can imagine it has been a long hard battle. I use Cyano which seem's to suit me better but if honest I am worried about injecting twice daily into the muscles because I get so sore. How do you manage injection sites ?
Maybe I should give it a try. π
What country are you in? It would be so great to have docs who would write those prescriptions!
I read that a while back too. I had respect for him until that.
Places you order your vitamin B12 injections 
Time to self inject
Results can some experienced members take a look please
